USA 3rd in World?

Masirib5

Masirib5

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After watching the 2011 Guinness event live on TV over here, I came to the realization that the US does not have the best players in the world anymore. I'm probably behind the curve on this, as usual, but here is the way I see it:

1st place is still the Philippines
2nd place goes to China and Taiwan (seem the same to me but with a territorial dispute!)
3rd place is US I think
4th place is Europe (sorry I bundled this but too many to list)
5th place is Indonesia

I don't know about the other countries

Just my opinion

Well I'm still a US citizen and root for my country but purely based on what I saw, China players played so great! Out shot, out safetied, out position played, and had great fundamentals!!!

What do you think?

--Jeff
 
I think I would basically agree when comparing the entire countries. Just look at your list and how the sport ranks via popularity in the said countries.
 
Most of know that pool players in America struggle to make a living. How are players supporting themselves in other countries? Is it easier to get financial backing? If they have financial sources other than just winning tournaments then this could explain development programs.
 
It's clear that the rest of the world has caught up with the US, but I don't think any one country is far ahead of the others. any of the great players from China, the Phillipines, Europe or America can win. Any list of top players is going to have several Americans listed. I really don't think there's a clear cut number one country.
 
Europe fourth? Nonetheless, as suggested, China may pass everyone somewhere down the road. FYI, Europe has superstars of pool galore, including -

Ralf Souquet (Germany)
Thorsten Hohmann (Germany)
Oliver Ortmann (Germany)
Mika Immonen (Finland)
Darren Appleton (England)
Karl Boyes (England)
Raj Hundal (England)
Mark Gray (England)
Niels Feijen (Netherlands)
VanDenBerg (Netherlands)
David Alcaide (Spain)
Marcus Chamat (Sweden)
Huidji See (Netherlands)

and many, many others. Europe is loaded with talent right now, and they have shown their pedigree in recent tournament play and in Mosconi Cup action.
 
Masirib5 said:
After watching the 2011 Guinness event live on TV over here, I came to the realization that the US does not have the best players in the world anymore. I'm probably behind the curve on this, as usual, but here is the way I see it:

1st place is still the Philippines
2nd place goes to China and Taiwan (seem the same to me but with a territorial dispute!)
3rd place is US I think
4th place is Europe (sorry I bundled this but too many to list)
5th place is Indonesia

I don't know about the other countries

Just my opinion

Well I'm still a US citizen and root for my country but purely based on what I saw, China players played so great! Out shot, out safetied, out position played, and had great fundamentals!!!

What do you think?

--Jeff
Click to expand...

Based on international titles won in the past ten years and money matches won this is the list I would go with.

1. Phillipines
2. Europe
3. Taiwan
4. China
5. USA



Taiwan and China are TWO separate sovereign countries.
 
for me

1 Taiwan and phillipiness
both deserves first position... Yang ching shun is still the best player..while Phillipines got so many great player on reyes, alex, django, dennis and else.
2. Europe and China
europe come close to second...very close..i believe....their best player ralf souqet is a really good player...win many trophy and always consistent on tourney.i can not judge him fair..because i never see him play money game...
while China is first position on woman pool player... Liu sha sha...chen siming is first position on woman pool...their man player also awesome...fu jian bo...li he wen and now they have got Wu Chia Ching....I predict they can be the future champion..So watch out europe, Phillipines and Taiwan..

3. USA
US got a great player on SVB..Earl...that's all

4. Indonesia
my country... i know exactly that without a revoultion on our association...we can not get higher position than this...
 
First off, I sat next to a guy from Taiwan on the plane a few weeks ago. Taiwan is a country. There are even nations that recognize it as such. The only reason this is not solidified is beacuse everybody is scared of straining their own relations with China-- but rest assured, if you go to Taiwan, it will be as though you are in the country of Taiwan.

That aside, I think the point people are missing here is that yes, other countires have "caught up" when it comes to pool, but when you look at other sports, this should not happen this quickly. When you look at say soccer, the countries that have a long and steady tradition of playing soccer are still at or near top, it's just that other countries are now more competitive. Great! But what you see in pool isn't like this at all......

We are not remaining as one of the most competitive nations in pool, we are being passed. It is quite obvious. The question then becomes, why? Because there is no infastructure or incentive to play pool for a living. I feel what we need is a way for strong amateur players to make and continue to make a reasonable income, especially if they continue to play better. Yet what you actually see in US pool is barring of strong local players from tournaments etc. There is simply no incentive there for them.
 
The Chinchilla said:
First off, I sat next to a guy from Taiwan on the plane a few weeks ago. Taiwan is a country. There are even nations that recognize it as such. The only reason this is not solidified is beacuse everybody is scared of straining their own relations with China-- but rest assured, if you go to Taiwan, it will be as though you are in the country of Taiwan.

That aside, I think the point people are missing here is that yes, other countires have "caught up" when it comes to pool, but when you look at other sports, this should not happen this quickly. When you look at say soccer, the countries that have a long and steady tradition of playing soccer are still at or near top, it's just that other countries are now more competitive. Great! But what you see in pool isn't like this at all......

We are not remaining as one of the most competitive nations in pool, we are being passed. It is quite obvious. The question then becomes, why? Because there is no infastructure or incentive to play pool for a living. I feel what we need is a way for strong amateur players to make and continue to make a reasonable income, especially if they continue to play better. Yet what you actually see in US pool is barring of strong local players from tournaments etc. There is simply no incentive there for them.
Click to expand...

The incentive is there for any person in the United States to become a world class player. The international events are paying 25-40 thousand for first place finishes and there are many of them per year. In the USA there is the Derby City Classic, the US Open 10 ball, US Open 9 Ball and the Seminole Pro Tour to play on.

Becoming a world class player in pool isn't something that requires government sponsorship. Any person can have a table in their home. Coaches and trainers and instructors are available for free and for low money. Most pool rooms will donate table time to anyone seriously pursuing a professional career in return for some sponsorship.

The fact of it though that in Asia and in Europe the level of play has caught up to the level in the USA and the desire to win is greater. Most top US players do not put in the time and effort they need to in order to stay sharp. This has nothing to do with the lack of prize money, it's the same for all competitors. It has more to do with internal motivation and wishing that there were a well paying tour inside the USA.

Well the USA will not support such a tour. The USA has too many other entertainment options. In fact those choices are so many that a lot of top professionals in the USA prefer to play golf and poker and fish rather than practice pool.

So when the USA sends three or four people to a 64 player event and those people are already not as sharp as they can be then it's inevitable that those players will not fare well. Now it's been rightly said that if the top USA players lived near each other and they sparred regularly as the Taiwanese and Filipinos do then they would be sharper. Surely then they would endeavor to arrange for that to happen? Why not take an actual team to the international events much the same as a team works in cycling where the team works together to support the strongest players and they all share in the winnings? Taking say four or five international events as a guide which all have purses of say $150,000 that means that in a given year there is say $600-750,000 up for grabs. Could the US team conceivably field a team of five people who could gather $250,000 of that into their collective pockets? Possibly given the right amount of sharpness and desire. Maybe not though, maybe the skill level of the rest of the world is simply too high to have it be anything but who gets the lucky rolls in any given match.

But until we see a similar level of dedication from the USA professionals we will not know.
 
Roadie said:
The incentive is there for any person in the United States to become a world class player. The international events are paying 25-40 thousand for first place finishes and there are many of them per year. In the USA there is the Derby City Classic, the US Open 10 ball, US Open 9 Ball and the Seminole Pro Tour to play on.

Becoming a world class player in pool isn't something that requires government sponsorship. Any person can have a table in their home. Coaches and trainers and instructors are available for free and for low money. Most pool rooms will donate table time to anyone seriously pursuing a professional career in return for some sponsorship.

The fact of it though that in Asia and in Europe the level of play has caught up to the level in the USA and the desire to win is greater. Most top US players do not put in the time and effort they need to in order to stay sharp. This has nothing to do with the lack of prize money, it's the same for all competitors. It has more to do with internal motivation and wishing that there were a well paying tour inside the USA.

Well the USA will not support such a tour. The USA has too many other entertainment options. In fact those choices are so many that a lot of top professionals in the USA prefer to play golf and poker and fish rather than practice pool.

So when the USA sends three or four people to a 64 player event and those people are already not as sharp as they can be then it's inevitable that those players will not fare well. Now it's been rightly said that if the top USA players lived near each other and they sparred regularly as the Taiwanese and Filipinos do then they would be sharper. Surely then they would endeavor to arrange for that to happen? Why not take an actual team to the international events much the same as a team works in cycling where the team works together to support the strongest players and they all share in the winnings? Taking say four or five international events as a guide which all have purses of say $150,000 that means that in a given year there is say $600-750,000 up for grabs. Could the US team conceivably field a team of five people who could gather $250,000 of that into their collective pockets? Possibly given the right amount of sharpness and desire. Maybe not though, maybe the skill level of the rest of the world is simply too high to have it be anything but who gets the lucky rolls in any given match.

But until we see a similar level of dedication from the USA professionals we will not know.
Click to expand...

Pretty close on many counts here. We just don't have that many highly motivated players who want to travel and play the international circuit. For whatever reason they prefer to stay close to home. If they really wanted to play these events they could find a way, just like the English players do. Same for all the filipinos who will travel thousands of miles to play in a qualifier just to enter a major event. Talk about dedication to their sport.

I will say this, from my experience I would still say that there are more good players in America than anywhere else. We literally have hundreds of good players in this country and dozens of them are world class. Only problem being that most of them will only play on American soil, with rare exceptions. Sad to say, but Shane is the last remaining American player who is actively playing all the major world events.
 
Masirib5 said:
After watching the 2011 Guinness event live on TV over here, I came to the realization that the US does not have the best players in the world anymore. I'm probably behind the curve on this, as usual, but here is the way I see it:

1st place is still the Philippines
2nd place goes to China and Taiwan (seem the same to me but with a territorial dispute!)
3rd place is US I think
4th place is Europe (sorry I bundled this but too many to list)
5th place is Indonesia

I don't know about the other countries

Just my opinion

Well I'm still a US citizen and root for my country but purely based on what I saw, China players played so great! Out shot, out safetied, out position played, and had great fundamentals!!!

What do you think?

--Jeff
Click to expand...
If you count Europe as 1 country, it is most definitely above the US. Japan is also probably above the US right now. All the American champions except for Shane are long past their prime and there just isn't enough young talent to pick up where they left off. I think China actually is below the US at the moment although they are getting really good quickly.

I will say this, from my experience I would still say that there are more good players in America than anywhere else. We literally have hundreds of good players in this country and dozens of them are world class. Only problem being that most of them will only play on American soil, with rare exceptions. Sad to say, but Shane is the last remaining American player who is actively playing all the major world events.
Click to expand...

You should make a visit to Japan sometime. There are probably more good unknown players here than anywhere else in the world. They have something like 300 registered pros and a whole lot of amateurs that play way better than most of the pros.
 
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Masayoshi said:
If you count Europe as 1 country, it is most definitely above the US. Japan is also probably above the US right now. All the American champions except for Shane are long past their prime and there just isn't enough young talent to pick up where they left off. I think China actually is below the US at the moment although they are getting really good quickly.



You should make a visit to Japan sometime. There are probably more good unknown players here than anywhere else in the world. They have something like 300 registered pros and a whole lot of amateurs that play way better than most of the pros.
Click to expand...

I agree with you, people that haven't been to Asia want to act like they know about its pool scene, but they don't. I think one reason US pros don't come over is because they could get beat in a field of amateurs real easy. I read recently that Darren Appleton stopped into Bangkok after he won the US open and played in a tournament there.... what place did he get.... like 3rd or 4th behind Thai's-- and mind you, Thais are on the lower end of the totem pole when it comes to Asian pool. In 10 years it will all be more clear.

People are citing lack of motivation here. Let's assume you're right. Well, why is there no motivation? That's the question. I feel it's because we have created a very uninteresting and also unrewarding system here for good players. The notion that any good player would just sit in his basement for 3000 hours a year and learn pool is just wrong. You need incentives. But, whatever the case, US pool aint going nowhere, but who knows, if we see how bad we are at it maybe we'll pull our proverbial heads out.
 
The Chinchilla said:
I agree with you, people that haven't been to Asia want to act like they know about its pool scene, but they don't. I think one reason US pros don't come over is because they could get beat in a field of amateurs real easy. I read recently that Darren Appleton stopped into Bangkok after he won the US open and played in a tournament there.... what place did he get.... like 3rd or 4th behind Thai's-- and mind you, Thais are on the lower end of the totem pole when it comes to Asian pool. In 10 years it will all be more clear.

People are citing lack of motivation here. Let's assume you're right. Well, why is there no motivation? That's the question. I feel it's because we have created a very uninteresting and also unrewarding system here for good players. The notion that any good player would just sit in his basement for 3000 hours a year and learn pool is just wrong. You need incentives. But, whatever the case, US pool aint going nowhere, but who knows, if we see how bad we are at it maybe we'll pull our proverbial heads out.
Click to expand...

How about providing a list of the world class events held in Asia in the past five years and then compare them to the amount of foreigners (non-asian) players who participated and what places were achieved. For as a small a group they have done quite well against a relative army of Asian on the Asian's home turf.

The example of Darren Appleton getting beaten by some random player in a rinky tournament doesn't prove anything. Too small a sample size and the circumstances are unknown. For all we know Daz was drunk off his ass partying and having a good time and still finished 3rd.

You are however absolutely right that in the USA there is little financial incentive because there is not a series of events that can support a large number of players to be full time professionals. But worldwide, including the existing events in the USA, there are plenty of events to make it worthwhile for America's elite players to keep their skills honed.
 
Why is Europe considered as one country? I don't get that, it will be only fair to count Asia as one country then if you want to count Europe as one.

then Asia would be above all obviously, and for me to list them

1. Asia
2. Europe
3. USA/Canada (Northern America) as one country.
 
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asbani said:
Why is Europe considered as one country? I don't get that, it will be only fair to count Asia as one country then if you want to count Europe as one.

then Asia would be above all obviously, and for me to list them

1. Asia
2. Europe
3. USA/Canada (Northern America) as one country.
Click to expand...

Very good point.

My rankings would then be like this based on big events

1. Philippines
2. Great Britain
3. Taiwan
5. Germany
6. Iceland
7. USA?
 
Roadie said:
Very good point.

My rankings would then be like this based on big events

1. Philippines
2. Great Britain
3. Taiwan
5. Germany
6. Iceland
7. USA?
Click to expand...

Are you joking?

Didn't you mean Finland by the contraction of "Iceman" and Finland :D
 
jay helfert said:
Pretty close on many counts here. We just don't have that many highly motivated players who want to travel and play the international circuit. For whatever reason they prefer to stay close to home. If they really wanted to play these events they could find a way, just like the English players do. Same for all the filipinos who will travel thousands of miles to play in a qualifier just to enter a major event. Talk about dedication to their sport.

I will say this, from my experience I would still say that there are more good players in America than anywhere else.
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Agreed. Jay, that the talent pool of "good players" may be deeper than Europe and Asia, but we don't have our fair share of the world's 100 best players.

As for the choice of America's best to skip events on foregin soil, I'm not sure motivation has anything to do with it. The economics don't add up for them. To break even, they typically need a top 10 finish and given how strong the fields are these days, that's what we call here in Ameirca "bad action" for all but the superelite. The Europeans not only get government assistance, but they also have a well established pro pool tour called the Europour from which they can make a few euros. That is why there is so much urgency to grow the number of elite pro pool events here in America, and, similarly, why I found the timing of the ABP boycott, which could possibly wipe the US Open from the face of the earth, surprising.
 
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