$25 for a piece of chalk is ridiculous!

[bboxgrinder]

A lot of people said the same thing about Ipads and their prices in comparison to notebooks.

Now Ipads and tablet computers in general are looking to overtake notebooks in sales.

There is no doubt that many who held forth their opinions about the ridiculousness of paying more money for an Ipad than a netbook/notebook have since recanted while others have held fast to their opinions.

What is not in dispute is that the consumer now has a breadth of choice at many price points.

If one wants to spend $25 on chalk then they can and if they don't then they don't have to. If one wishes to have the once-a-month chalking feature and is willing to pay for it then they can and if they prefer the once-a-minute chore of chalking then that level is also available.

I'd be willing to bet you personally that if you were honestly convinced that the chalk was truly able to be a significant advantage to your game then you'd buy it. I think that most advanced players would come to this same conclusion. However that does not mean that they would stay with it. Some people are simply content with the status quo which is fine if it works for them.

In any event Kamui Chalk is the latest buzz and I am a sucker for certain things so I will let you all know what I think when I get it. I think it's a bit ridiculous to feel this anxious about chalk.

You are 100% right about the buzzes. I still don't own an IPad either lol. I'm a low to mid level A player if I get regular table time daily, a high B without much time. I miss a few more balls without that daily feel of playing. I have a no thought chalk before each shot process I have just taught myself to do over the years when I play so even if I did have it I would be spending a fortune on chalk lol.

I would be very curious to hear your thoughts on it when you do try it. You understand the sales hype pretty well from what you have said. Knowing that I think your thoughts will be very good to hear. Thanks for your reply and input on the subject. Always good to have people put out their experiences on products. We can get a lot of good info today versus before the web.

 

[cheapcues.com]

You are correct, I have not tried it nor am I against giving it a try. But I am against paying $25 for product that really doesn't need to be improved upon. Sometimes change is not better.

It's not making them better players (your players) because they already are. It would be different if you stated poor players bought it and were suddenly stronger shooters. Alas, there is no such thing as magic chalk. The physics of pool are not going to mathematically evolve from a piece of chalk.

I would liken this to dimple changes on a golf ball. Most of us aren't going to be able to tell any difference, even decent players, and it's really only the strong players that may notice some slight improvement where any inkling of an advantage is a huge gain for them. Lord knows, that the golf industry tries to squeeze every penny out of you that they can with all of their "improvements" and gadgets.

Making them better players perhaps wasn't the right phrasing- they are the same players. But what each of them told me is that it helps them in some way- whether it be to get better action of the ball, or making more balls. Yes, one of these players cited specific types of shots where the tip would just barely slide off the CB in the last fraction of a second, causing a tiny bit of squirt, making the OB jar in the pocktet. Not any more, according to him, with Kaumui chalk. That is why they walked out with a piece. He went so far as to ask us not to tell anyone else about it because of the advantage he would have. I'm just reporting what they told me. From what I've seen so far the product is living up to, if not exceeding the lofty expectations. But again, you have to try it before you can judge it.

On the golf analogy, which I am glad you made because I'm a better golfer than pool player, good players can tell the difference from one ball to the next, even subtle changes such as from one generation of ProV1 to the next. And as you said, having even the slightest edge when you're playing at a high level translates into cash. That is why I'm saying spending $25 or $50 a year on chalk, vs say $5 or $10 a year is a small price to pay when one considers the possible gain for a top player- hundreds, if not thousands of dollars. Also when you compare to other costs- table time- thousands. Lessons- hundreds or thousands. Retipping, maintenance, occasionally a new cue or case. Not to mention the hours of one's time dedicated to practicing and playing. Seriously, $25 a year? I spend $40 on a dozen golf balls which last me about 2 weeks when I'm playing a lot. Not to mention green fees. Would I spend $50 a year on balls that I knew were better, or tees that gave me an extra 5 yards with my driver, or a putter that would save me 1/2 of a stroke per round? I'd pay $500 a year for that. Maybe more. What would a top pro pay for that?

 

[ShootingArts]

tires

Back when I was just a pup I worked on a pit crew for a circle track driver. He was an older fellow, a track champion and record holder when Bobby and Donnie Allison were just getting going. He and Bobby were old friends and Bobby was sponsored by Goodyear.

Bobby made a phone call and we finished the season on experimental Goodyears. They weren't free to us, $520 a set compared to $140 a set for the retreads most cars were running but we notched a lot of first places with the tires making them somewhat worthwhile although the profits were thin enough it didn't take much for them to disappear.

The next season two or three teams including ours had the Goodyears. Only one team could get first place and second place might break even if they were lucky, third place lost money. All good teams but none of us made any cash that year, tires ate it all.

The next year half the field had the Goodyears and you had to buy them just to be competitive, let alone win. Times were tough and purses hadn't went up, some went down. People that had scraped out a living racing were SOL.

I have seen that same technology and cost race over and over competing and the latest and greatest thing never gives an edge for long. However once it is in use if it is better everybody has to go to it.

Somehow $25 chalk reminds me of Goodyear gumballs, pretty sure that is why I posted this ramble in the thread. Oh one other thing, if a winning driver bolted a golden eagle on his dash, the next year half the field would do the same, might be another reason I posted in this thread. Improvement or golden eagle, either way if the best players use $25 chalk many of the other players will fall in line.

Hu

 

[jwine1088]

Okay i'm knocking it because i've tried it.
The formula maybe more costly to produce than a $2.50 chalk.
The marketing = a statement we want $25 for this piece of chalk
The worth in my honest opinion = $7-$10

For a player who doesn't like the mess that regular chalk produces it's a good buy no mess, for the player who would like to chalk up less it's a good buy.

In comparison:
Brunswick chalk = shit chalk thats dry
A blue diamond chalk or one even better a chalk that my friend gets from italy= a more dense chalk that goes on with an easy rub and little mess
Kamui Chalk = clayish makeup substance chalk thats more dense and goes on and stays on easy

I personally chalk up a lot, it's habitual so when i used kamui chalk i was like reaching to chalk when i didn't need to. It got annoying takes some time to get used to. It served its purpose, however if i use the in between chalk the blue diamond that has some denseness to it, it's not bad at all and in my opinion the slight dryness to a chalk has some better properties to it when you hit a cue ball with a clay like substance i feel like there is more potential for slip where as a semi dense chalk makes better contact with a ball.

Overall:
I would take blue diamond over it because its cheaper and in my opinion better for my habits and when i make contact with my cue ball. If Kamui charged 7-10 bucks for their chalk i'd consider changing but i'm not completely bought. I still think its more of the marketing that has people talking not the overall picture. Has Kamui chalk made my game better? No, has it made it easier? Probably.
My Two Cents

 

[SeanC]

I recently faced with the "dilemma" of either trying the Kamui chalk for $25 or taking my family out to dinner. I went with the latter, had a quality time, and the "tres leches" cake was great!

Seriously though, just do whatever makes you happy

 

[justadub]

Yes, one of these players cited specific types of shots where the tip would just barely slide off the CB in the last fraction of a second, causing a tiny bit of squirt, making the OB jar in the pocktet. Not any more, according to him, with Kaumui chalk.

If this stuff will keep me from rattling those goddamned pockets, I'm all in!
:clapping:

(I'll probably try some at some point, if opportunity meets available expendable cash.)

 

[ridewiththewind]

Just cracks me up how many people actually believe that a piece of chalk makes them a better player. Spending your hard-earned dollars on pool lessons will very likely make you a better player than a piece of chalk.

For the last time.......MISCUES ARE THE DIRECT RESULT OF A POOR STROKE!!!!!!!!!!! No magic piece of chalk is going to fix that!


PS......Kamui learned their lesson well from PT Barnum.....there's a sucker born every minute.

 

[Rocket354]

Just cracks me up how many people actually believe that a piece of chalk makes them a better player. Spending your hard-earned dollars on pool lessons will very likely make you a better player than a piece of chalk.

For the last time.......MISCUES ARE THE DIRECT RESULT OF A POOR STROKE!!!!!!!!!!! No magic piece of chalk is going to fix that!


PS......Kamui learned their lesson well from PT Barnum.....there's a sucker born every minute.

Although I've read enough of your posts to realize responding to you is pointless...

Could you please point out the part in this thread where anyone claimed the chalk would make them a better player? The only claim I made was that I felt I got a little more action from the cueball with the chalk than with other chalk (which isn't necessarily a good thing; it's just so). I've seen no one else make any claims that it makes them a better player.

As for miscues, if chalk doesn't make a difference, then do people play without chalk? Again the only claims I made was that I could go 60+ shots without miscuing, which is substantially more shots I could go without regular chalk and not miscue. This is of course because Kamui stays on the tip longer whereas BD or Master's gets knocked off to the point of being ineffective after many fewer shots. I'm not sure that's an arguable point, either (which might be why you have to argue against subtly different stance that no one is taking). And again, I've seen no one else make any claims that miscues are all the fault of their chalk and Kamui solves all those problems.

But good job killing those strawmen that Scott set up.

That post was such a buzzkill after so many thoughtful, well-reasoned posts the last couple pages, like cheapcues.com, coolboy303 and Roadie among others.

 

[Roadie]

I recently faced with the "dilemma" of either trying the Kamui chalk for $25 or taking my family out to dinner. I went with the latter, had a quality time, and the "tres leches" cake was great!

Seriously though, just do whatever makes you happy

I faced the same dilemma. I chose the chalk, won the tournament and took my family on a trip with the profit.

Kidding but the example holds just as true.

 

[SeanC]

I faced the same dilemma. I chose the chalk, won the tournament and took my family on a trip with the profit.

Kidding but the example holds just as true.

It doesn't. If, in your example, you believe that a piece of chalk is going to make you win a tournament, you're either a much worse player than you think you are, or just plain naive.

In the first case, I recommend stroking into the opening of an empty water bottle. No chalk required.

 

[brophog]

I have to caution on some of these analogies. Things like fishing hooks, golf balls, tires.........these sorts of things are all direct connections between action and result.

Chalk is simply an intermediary, and it has done that role in its present form just fine for a very long time.

 

[Roadie]

Just cracks me up how many people actually believe that a piece of chalk makes them a better player. Spending your hard-earned dollars on pool lessons will very likely make you a better player than a piece of chalk.

For the last time.......MISCUES ARE THE DIRECT RESULT OF A POOR STROKE!!!!!!!!!!! No magic piece of chalk is going to fix that!


PS......Kamui learned their lesson well from PT Barnum.....there's a sucker born every minute.

Miscues are a combination of where the player hits the ball combined with the level of friction present. There is a limit where there is not enough contact between the tip to sufficiently grab the cue ball enough to propel it forward. You can reduce this limit by using no chalk. Wipe all the chalk off off your cue and then try to play several shots with one tip of side spin. You will quickly understand that the miscues you experience are not the result of a poor stroke at all in this exercise.

Now add a very light amount of chalk and repeat the exercise. You will notice that your miscue limit has increased. And it will increase again with each subsequent improvement in friction between the cue ball and the tip.

So theoretically whatever material is best at increasing friction and maintaining a consistent level of friction is what you want to use so that your technical miscue area or better put the area of the cue ball that is safe from miscues with a proper stroke is as large as possible.

At that point you could then place most of the blame on the stroke when a miscue occurs.

Another way to look at it is that you probably would not want me to choose your chalk if we scheduled to compete. I am sure that a lot of us remember the trick about spitting in a the opponent's chalk and the results of that cheating action.

 

[The Chinchilla]

I think the core of the issue is really as follows:

Does the $25 chalk prevent miscues relative to a tip chalked with masters chalk (or any other good chalk)?

This is very hard to discern. Opinions don't get there. Some tests would convince me, or obviously unbiased opinions from strong pros would get me there too. I really don't think the not having to chalk every shot is an issue. I mean it's a convenience aspect that some are willing to pay for, and that is perfectly reasonable. But to me it is 100% about performance. Does it perform better with respect to miscues?

Let's say it does perform better. I still think we have to address the issue of will it potentially get barred or not from certain events (ala short jump cues without leather tips). I mean what the hell is it made of, did they mix 3M sticky post it glue with chalk or something? If not, it could turn into the chalk. I;m sure that's what kamui is hoping for.

PS, you think they would sell me one tip and one piece of chalk in a package deal for $40??

 

[Roadie]

It doesn't. If, in your example, you believe that a piece of chalk is going to make you win a tournament, you're either a much worse player than you think you are, or just plain naive.

In the first case, I recommend stroking into the opening of an empty water bottle. No chalk required.

I am afraid the example mit have been a little under explained. To clarify the assumption is that the chalk works as advertised and thus having suffered no miscues the player then wins the event. It is a hypothetical example but one that no less a player as John Schmidt has used where he said clearly that if the chalk eliminated just four miscues per event then it would be worth it.

One has to assume that Mr. Schmidt is proficient in the use of all standard non-Kamui brands of chalk and thus has the experience to back up his analysis of the relative value as relates to improved performance.

 

[Roadie]

I have to caution on some of these analogies. Things like fishing hooks, golf balls, tires.........these sorts of things are all direct connections between action and result.

Chalk is simply an intermediary, and it has done that role in its present form just fine for a very long time.

This is not entirely correct. Chalk is actually the most important part of modern billiards because wihout it the game simply cannot be played to the possible technical limit.

There are very bad brands of chalk that are practically useless so it is clear when a player is forced to use those brands that they are operating with a handicap.

The brands made by tweeten are certainly well enough for the task but one should never assume that they are necessarily the best solution. Longevity, or doing something a certain way is by itself not enough to rule out change for the better.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

Funny thing is Seyberts Billiards Supply had 50 cubes of this Chalk for sale at $25.00/Cube, that was last week. This week they are SOLD OUT!

 

[nympfisher]

This is not entirely correct. Chalk is actually the most important part of modern billiards because wihout it the game simply cannot be played to the possible technical limit.

There are very bad brands of chalk that are practically useless so it is clear when a player is forced to use those brands that they are operating with a handicap.

The brands made by tweeten are certainly well enough for the task but one should never assume that they are necessarily the best solution. Longevity, or doing something a certain way is by itself not enough to rule out change for the better.

Makes sense to me, i really dont see many using cheesy wallmart stuff. (and think of the savings compared to Masters .lol)
anyway just dont buy it if u cant afford to try it . maybe it will make it more affordable for the rest of us that like it.

 

[RackemBilliards]

Expensive chalk

Yes, one of these players cited specific types of shots where the tip would just barely slide off the CB in the last fraction of a second, causing a tiny bit of squirt, making the OB jar in the pocktet.

Very informative thread. I Found myself reading the whole thing wondering if anyone would mention deflection (squirt). It seems reasonable to say that any additional grip on the cueball would keep it in line and on the tip longer, and therefore reduce deflection. It also seems reasonable to say that since using chalk is better than no chalk, a higher quality chalk should be better still. I remember the old timers saying Mosconi had a stroke that allowed him to keep his tip on the cueball longer. The same seemed true when you watched the strokes of Mizerak, Reyes, and others. I'm not saying it's going to improve things to that level, of course. I guess I'm in the small group who haven't tried it, but think it's probably better, and maybe not just to avoid miscues.

 

[jimmyg]

Okay, let's assume that it really does a better job than the competition.

Still, how does the manufacturer justify the price premium? Not the player, who may believe that every game he's won is because of the new chalk, but the manufacturer. Is it a special costly material, a very labor intensive process, or special machinery that dictates the expensive price? Or is it just charging what you can get?

No judgements, just asking.

J

 

[XxMerlinxX]

I'm glad you ask. Someone mentioning that by weight, it is more expensive than silver, got me thinking. So I sent an email off to Kamui.

I was wondering why Kamui chalk is so expensive? It's currently more expensive than even silver.

The reply:

Thank you for the email. The chalk is made up of a total different compound than what we know as chalk. Kamui chalk is that much different. When you experience it, you will understand. The elements that make up the chalk is expensive in their own right. If we could make it cheaper we would because it would open up the market to more buyers.

The part about it being "total different compound than what we know as chalk" makes me wonder if it really is some sort of makeup being processed and repackaged as "chalk"?