Next time you're going to post examples of how to draw the rock, make sure they're not as anemic as these. At first I thought you were joking, but then I realized you're not and you're being dead serious.
The Draw Shot
- Thread starter Pangit
- Start date
Next time you're going to post examples of how to draw the rock, make sure they're not as anemic as these. At first I thought you were joking, but then I realized you're not and you're being dead serious.
Pangit
Banned
Thanks Dana, I agree. Didn't mean to open a can of worms. Lot's of drill's/video's to learn from. My "problem" seems to be an inconsistent follow through? Follow through is huge in any "throwing sport" and that's what I do, throw the cue at the cue ball with the help of a bridge albeit underhanded. I hold the cue very lightly just on the fingertips. That's a whole 'nether bag of worms, how to grasp the cue?
You have got to be kidding me! Did you even look at your own videos before posting that nonsense about only needing 3/4 tip below center? The very first one you are more than a tip below center on set up, and on the actual shot you are two tips below center.
Try using a striped ball and checked the chalk marks some time.
Something else- for you guys that think elevating the butt helps. It doesn't. All it does is make you jump the cb. Go to Dr.Daves site and learn something about it. You are attacking the ball on the same relative angle as a level stroke, just shooting the cb down into the cloth to do it. The center of the cb doesn't change. When you raise your butt, the angle of the cue determines your path to the center of the cb. You hit higher on the cb, but being on an angle you are not hitting higher on the plane to center of the cb. You are hitting just as low on the plane to center as you do with a level stroke.
Duckie, I challenge you to put the cb 6 feet away from the ob, hit less than one tip below center, and draw back to your starting position with the cb. You can do vids, so show us piss poor instructors just how bad we are. Make sure you start with a clean striped ball, and then show the mark on it afterwards.
I agree. The first one's not even a draw shot -- it appears to be more of a stun shot than draw. The second one is an off-angle draw shot. Only the third one appears to be a true "straight back" draw shot. I think if duckie's trying to show examples of draw shots, he should include REAL "straight back" draw shots (like the 6-ball-in-the-side-pocket shot in the third video), not stun shots or stun-draws. Knowing the difference is, well, demonstrative of knowledge itself.
And what's with the continued posting of that same tired old picture in post #27? Duckie keeps posting that, ever since his wars with John Barton in the CTE threads! Is this like the best shot he's ever done so he keeps posting it to "remind" us?
I also agree about jacking the butt up slightly for draw being a myth. I think this originates from players with a poor [inaccurate] stroke, that are unable to accurately hit the cue ball low while the cue is as level as possible. So they jack-up, and the feeling of "getting a meaty hit on the cue ball" (i.e. hitting it down into the cloth) satisfies something subconsciously.
Duckie, I have a challenge for you. I don't think you can do it. Here it is: on a 9-foot table, place an object ball behind the foot-spot-line in line with the corner pocket ("in line" meaning as viewed from the head end of the table). Now, with ball-in-hand behind the kitchen, pocket that object ball in that far corner pocket, and draw the cue ball straight back at you, preferably scratching in the corner pocket in the kitchen underneath where you're shooting from. (That is to say, you're shooting cater-corner / diagonally across the table -- object ball in one corner pocket, scratching the cue ball in the diagonally-opposite corner pocket.) But you must do this with at least 7 feet of distance between the cue ball and the object ball. Not the 1 foot of distance you're showing in your videos. In the spirit of offering a challenge for which I myself am able to execute, I'll share with you that I'm 8 or 9 for 10 on these (I'll usually bobble the cue ball in the corner pocket in the kitchen on the ones that are not successful).
If you can do that and post a video, then I think the folks that have posted here will take you more seriously.
-Sean
Pangit:
The problem is that the person who started with the can of worms was a person who gave you inaccurate information, and attacked people who gave you accurate information. It was he who started with the vitriol. So he got back what he gave.
Apologies this happened in your thread that asked an innocent (and good!) question. Hopefully though, the accurate information drowns-out the inaccurate information.
-Sean
Dear Moderators
If I've ever given advise like I've just read in the past or if ever in the future please ban me for 6 months.
PLEASE OP its a level smooth accelerating stroke, Whenever possible. No jack up.
Neil, I agree with you on where center ball is but it was hard to follow. At risk of being banned I'll say that Center does change as the cue angle changes. You first said it doesn't then explained how it does. I always ask folks when talking about this stuff "Where do you think Center is when the Cue is vertical ie full masse? And yes if you raise the butt and pinch the ball it will hop and very likely reduce the draw effect.
If I've ever given advise like I've just read in the past or if ever in the future please ban me for 6 months.
PLEASE OP its a level smooth accelerating stroke, Whenever possible. No jack up.
Neil, I agree with you on where center ball is but it was hard to follow. At risk of being banned I'll say that Center does change as the cue angle changes. You first said it doesn't then explained how it does. I always ask folks when talking about this stuff "Where do you think Center is when the Cue is vertical ie full masse? And yes if you raise the butt and pinch the ball it will hop and very likely reduce the draw effect.
wow, nice draw shots, but the stun shot at 7:20 !!!! red near pink already goes but still a proper hit in my book
I know. I saw that pic for the 20th time and was like, "Again!?" How'd he get that picture anyways? Did he squeak a ball in and was like "WOOOW!!! Let's set that up again and take a picture so I can show everyone I get into an argument with on the internet!!! SWEET! I'll show them!!!"
Duck, if you made it at all --- trust that there are guys on here who will make it EVERY TIME. Stop posting that stupid picture for crying out loud.
The OP's problem is not that he cannot draw the ball back; it is that when trying to do so, the results are all over the place. This suggests a stroke error that is manifesting in inconsistent tip placement.
What might help is aiming to hit the c.b. higher up and increasing the pace of the shot to compensate. Of course this is of limited use when not drawing straight back, and is not much good on power draws. But for many draw shots, this might help. There are two reasons for this.
The first reason is a point that Patrick has already mentioned, but it is a very good one and worth repeating: If you aim too close to the miscue limit, then unless you have a very accurate stroke, normal variations in where the tip actually ends up hitting the cb will often result in miscues. Because of this, the player will start to make subsconsious adjustments in order to avoid miscuing. These adjustments are largely involuntary and steer the tip towards a more central hit, but in an uncontrolled way. The results can be very inconsistent.
The second reason why hitting more centrally might help is this: The lower you hit the c.b., the more sensitive the outcome is to variations in tip placement. Conversely, hits that are closer to the centre of the c.b. are much more error tolerant (so small errors in tip placement do not have such a big effect on the outcome). A good rule of thumb when developing a controlled draw shot is therefore not to hit the ball any lower than you need to.
Once you have got used to aiming close to the centre, the next step is to gradually go through some progressive drills as other posters have suggested. This will enable more challenging draw shots to be mastered, ones that really do need to be hit low.
And fwiw
+1 for a level cue
+1 for not necessarily needing a big follow through
:smile:
What might help is aiming to hit the c.b. higher up and increasing the pace of the shot to compensate. Of course this is of limited use when not drawing straight back, and is not much good on power draws. But for many draw shots, this might help. There are two reasons for this.
The first reason is a point that Patrick has already mentioned, but it is a very good one and worth repeating: If you aim too close to the miscue limit, then unless you have a very accurate stroke, normal variations in where the tip actually ends up hitting the cb will often result in miscues. Because of this, the player will start to make subsconsious adjustments in order to avoid miscuing. These adjustments are largely involuntary and steer the tip towards a more central hit, but in an uncontrolled way. The results can be very inconsistent.
The second reason why hitting more centrally might help is this: The lower you hit the c.b., the more sensitive the outcome is to variations in tip placement. Conversely, hits that are closer to the centre of the c.b. are much more error tolerant (so small errors in tip placement do not have such a big effect on the outcome). A good rule of thumb when developing a controlled draw shot is therefore not to hit the ball any lower than you need to.
Once you have got used to aiming close to the centre, the next step is to gradually go through some progressive drills as other posters have suggested. This will enable more challenging draw shots to be mastered, ones that really do need to be hit low.
And fwiw
+1 for a level cue
+1 for not necessarily needing a big follow through
:smile:
There are 2 fears that seem to get in the way of learning to draw the cueball.
Fear number 1 is that you will miscue and knock the cueball off the table and embarass yourself.
Fear 2 is that you will strike the table and tear the cloth.....
As long as your tip is in good condition and the table is properly covered fear number 2 needs to go right out the window... Most players will end up with the cue on the cloth at the end of their strokes. I actually watch the lines I make on the cloth from time to time to see if I am finishing straight thru where the cueball was for the first couple of inches.
As far as jumping the cueball... That's going to happen as you learn the limits of how far off center you can strike the cueball for different speeds. The funny thing is that many of the miscues I have seen where the cueball jumps off the table comes from neophytes who jack up the back of the cue to try and help draw the ball. They invariable missstroke and hit the cloth BEFORE the cueball so they are actually bouncing into the cueball and sending it airborn.... They learn eventully to never try anything lower than 3/4 tip below center and let their crappy stroke just hit it lower than they aimed without ever realizing it...
It takes an accurate level stroke to draw the rock... That's the secret... Accurate stroke...
Do the progressive drills so you can start with a soft stroke and figure out how low you can go at that speed and then start adding distances. The tip from JoeW is pretty effective as well because it will give you a visual of how level and accurate you need to go thru the cueball by picking a spot on the cloth for your finish....
Fear number 1 is that you will miscue and knock the cueball off the table and embarass yourself.
Fear 2 is that you will strike the table and tear the cloth.....
As long as your tip is in good condition and the table is properly covered fear number 2 needs to go right out the window... Most players will end up with the cue on the cloth at the end of their strokes. I actually watch the lines I make on the cloth from time to time to see if I am finishing straight thru where the cueball was for the first couple of inches.
As far as jumping the cueball... That's going to happen as you learn the limits of how far off center you can strike the cueball for different speeds. The funny thing is that many of the miscues I have seen where the cueball jumps off the table comes from neophytes who jack up the back of the cue to try and help draw the ball. They invariable missstroke and hit the cloth BEFORE the cueball so they are actually bouncing into the cueball and sending it airborn.... They learn eventully to never try anything lower than 3/4 tip below center and let their crappy stroke just hit it lower than they aimed without ever realizing it...
It takes an accurate level stroke to draw the rock... That's the secret... Accurate stroke...
Do the progressive drills so you can start with a soft stroke and figure out how low you can go at that speed and then start adding distances. The tip from JoeW is pretty effective as well because it will give you a visual of how level and accurate you need to go thru the cueball by picking a spot on the cloth for your finish....
You're wrong in many ways, first being that "alot" isn't a word.
It was a figure of speech, which is why he put it in quotes.
He wasn't saying not to follow through, he was correctly saying that the cue ball isn't affected by your followthrough. What you do after contact with the cue ball doesn't matter in the slightest. The purpose of a natural followthrough is that you allow the stroke to be natural instead of either forcing it to stop immediately after contact or forcing it to follow after contact. Forcing, in either case, tends to throw off your alignment or speed. You allow for a natural followthrough to keep your shot in line.
The forearm swings, like a pendulum, from the elbow. You're swinging your hand, which happens to be holding the cue, so you're swinging the cue. Again, the purpose of the phrasing is to allow a smooth and natural stroke, because tension in the stroke tends to throw off alignment and speed.
No, really, it's more like a bat or a golf club. The bow is stroked across the strings with constant pressure but varying speeds and angles. The bat or club (or cue) starts from a resting position, moves into a backswing (shorter backswing, usually, with the baseball bat but it still swings back), and whips forward into the shot/swing/stroke. The purpose of the swing/shot/stroke is to achieve perfect speed and alignment at the moment of impact, and every player has a different method for ensuring that alignment. Every baseball player has a different stance, every golfer has slight variations to the club path, and every pool player has his or her own variations to the same mechanics.
Further into the comparison, golfers practice the same basic swing to set their fundamental stroke, i.e., perfect lie with perfect stance. Pool players do the same thing. Frequently, just like golfers, we're faced with imperfect position, e.g., shooting over a ball, off a rail, not enough room for a natural followthrough, so we change some of the specifics of the stroke at that time, but because we have a foundation stroke, we know what we need to change to meet the needs of the current shot.
So everything you've learned in pool, you've acquired on your own? Nobody ever showed you how to stand, how to hit, how to stroke, nothing? Wow. I'm impressed. Totally. You do realize every time someone else is at the table is a lesson, right?
Have fun with your life.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQX_H8GxZRc
Here are some good stroke shots from Blackjack. He snaps his wrist on his draws to get the best results with the least amount of effort. Cue looks level to me
Here are some good stroke shots from Blackjack. He snaps his wrist on his draws to get the best results with the least amount of effort. Cue looks level to me
Nice results and nice level cue, but he jerks his shot stroke. Works great for him, but I wouldn't recommend copying that part.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQX_H8GxZRc
Here are some good stroke shots from Blackjack. He snaps his wrist on his draws to get the best results with the least amount of effort. Cue looks level to me
pj
chgo
That "jerk" as you put it is a snapped wrist. That fluid wrist action provides a blast of acceleration within a short movement.
Agreed - It's not right right for beginners; but advanced players should want to explore wrist techniques and how it affects shots.
It's a small/twitch muscle versus big muscle thing. Just like the break, a fluid wrist is the best way to achieve the blast of acceleration required to really move the ball.
I agree. Develop the accuracy first - once you master that, you can add all that fancy chit. If you watch Keith McCready, he has a similar jerking motion to his draw. I idolized the way Keith would move the cue ball and copied a lot of that, I asked a lot of questions, and then worked on it until it was second nature. A lot of it has to do with the way you grip the cue to get different effects on the cue ball. It's not something you would be taught in a class on proper mechanics - but it gets the job done. Keith has posted about these methods on several occasions here on the forum - and IMO, it is priceless information.
IMO the key to a draw stroke is contacting the tip exactly where you want on the cue ball. If you realize that when the ball doesn't draw it is a result of not hitting the cue ball below center..... You will have less difficulty.
The hardest part of learning a draw stroke is developing a consistent stroke with more and more force. There is nothing magical about the grip or stroke it really depends on where the tip contacts the cue ball.
If you hit the ball below center with enough force the ball will draw.
When you want to start controlling the amount of draw you need consistently you really need to get even more precise because depending on how low you hit the cue ball will affect the amount of backspin produced.
For example-
If you shoot a draw shot with the same speed and a different tip elevation you will get a different amount of draw.
Now I know this is a very basic example but It might be helpful to the OP.
Dud
The hardest part of learning a draw stroke is developing a consistent stroke with more and more force. There is nothing magical about the grip or stroke it really depends on where the tip contacts the cue ball.
If you hit the ball below center with enough force the ball will draw.
When you want to start controlling the amount of draw you need consistently you really need to get even more precise because depending on how low you hit the cue ball will affect the amount of backspin produced.
For example-
If you shoot a draw shot with the same speed and a different tip elevation you will get a different amount of draw.
Now I know this is a very basic example but It might be helpful to the OP.
Dud