Shaft Sealing Questions

Pre-Flag Master

Pre-Flag Master

Cue Ball Man
Silver Member
I'm not a cue maker, just have general questions.

I have cleaned my shaft in the past using Magic Erasure and alcohol (91%). It comes out very good in terms of being clean, but I do end up with bare wood. In the past, as my next step I would use wax. It would be OK for a while, but once it started getting sticky, it went south quickly in terms of playability. Also I have no lathe and lack the desire to keep it waxed regularly by hand.

So I am looking to find a new process. Next time I clean my shaft, I will still use the magic erasure and alcohol and start from scratch (bare wood). But this time I want to stay away from waxes (and oils).

After the next time I clean it, I'd like to take it to someone who can seal it for me.

I've been experimenting with wiping my shaft after each pool playing session with Armor All Protectant Wipes. This has been positive in terms of maintaining a nice smooth sliding feel for playability. And it is easy and convenient enough that I will actually keep doing it as a routine. I'm hoping that doing this in an ongoing way will keep the shaft nice and clean after my next thorough cleaning and sealing.

So my questions are about sealing. I have some idea, but not a complete understanding, so I am going to ask all the questions to play devil's advocate in order the gain a better understanding... thank you.

What is sealing for? Does it really close the pores of the wood completely, or is it more about filling/smoothing, or both? Does it smooth by filling or does it smooth by applying a completely new surface? Is sealing really necessary? I don't keep my cue in the car - only in the same climate conditions that people find comfortable. Any particular product recommendations? Any issues with wiping the shaft with Armor All on top of the sealer? Any thing else I should consider? By the way, I don't like the idea of using a glove, and my hands don't really sweat when playing anyway.

I was talking to the guy at the billiards retail store who replaces my tips. He looked at my shaft and noticed the grain was raised (no doubt because of the way I've been cleaning down to the bare wood). But I have burnished it a lot. So the grain is raised - but at the same time - it is fairly slick too (currently no wax). So what he suggested was that he could put on some stuff - what it is he wouldn't say - some secret mixture I guess. This stuff would re-raise the grain and he could then sand off the raised grain and make it smoother. We talked about my being adamant to remove very minimal wood because I don't want an "inadvertent retaper". So what's the coursest sandpaper I should let him use? Now, this all seems very well and good, but the guy says that this will also result in the secret mixture sealing the shaft. Does this make sense? Or maybe he is saying he will put on more secret mixture after the sanding is done?

Thanks
Fatz
 
Basically,the sealer keeps moisture out of the wood. It also keeps chalk,finger oil,etc out of the pores.

Most people will actually prefer to have the sealer sanded off to an extent to improve feel. When this is done by a competent repairman/cuemaker,what is done is they knock off the sealer coat that is left on the outer surface,which leaves what is left in the pores. This can make the shaft feel slicker,but also protects it somewhat by keeping the typical dirt out of the pores,and makes it easier to clean next time.

The alcohol you're using will most likely remove all sealer,unless it's a type that is resistant to alcohol. This is doubled by the use of the Eraser.

As far as raising the grain,it happens. Try looking for denatured alcohol,which is 99%.

On the subject of sanding to remove the fuzz/grain raise,it's really a matter of how much it was raised to start with. Usually,a couple passes with fresh 400 or 600 should take this out.

I usually start a shaft cleaning like this.

LIGHT use of 400,followed by denatured alcohol with the Eraser,this is in a lathe by the way.

Inspection,looking for serious dents/dings and how much dirt is coming out.

If I can still feel imperfections but not bad enough that they will need individual attention,a clean piece of 400 is used,and not for long.

If the shaft is not too badly taken care of,this step replaces 400 with 600,because the Eraser takes care of most of that the way I use it.

600,then 800,then a wipedown with a little denatured on a clean paper towel to eliminate sanding dust.

I then apply sealer,usually 2 light coats,but enough to make sure entire surface is covered.

I then use 1000,1200,and wipe down with same paper towel,making sure it's not so wet it strips the sealer off.

Buff it,then apply wax,then use 1500,another light coat of wax,then 2000.

If the customer is waiting,the best part is watching their facial expression and hearing the typical DAAAAAAAAAMN! :thumbup:

A few words of advice on the Armor All. Save that for your dashboard. Products like that almost always have silicone in them,and in the long run cause way more damage than good. Tommy D.
 
Everyone has their preferences that work for them, but I think one thing that is universal among repairmen is that most would say that sealing is important. Not only for sealing out moisture, but for sealing the pores as Tommy already mentioned. If those pores are not kept filled and sealed, then It can make future cleaning near impossible. I have seen some really hopeless looking shafts come almost completely clean because they were kept sealed, on the other side I have seen some that did not look as bad, but did not want to come clean because They were not kept sealed, and dirt & chalk got down too deep in the pores that even a magic eraser was near useless.

Waxes are subjective depending who you talk to. I don't fault anyone for using them, It's a matter of preference, and people were using It long before I ever got into doing repair, but personally other then maybe using It on a ferrule every once in a while to improve the shine on hard to buff ferules, I prefer not to use It, and can get just as good or better results without.I've had people say that I over did things and made It too slick. I guess They were use to some amount of resistance in their stroke, but most people are more then happy with the way they turn out. when I was starting out carnuba wax was what was recommended to me, and I could get a nice smooth finish with It, I just did not like that It did not last as long, I tried a few other waxes with the same results so I eventually stopped using It. That's not to say that others have not found a better product or methods that allow It to hold up longer, just that I no longer bother It, unless specifically requested.

Now on the other hand this may have wax in It, and I don't know if I have ever seen anyone mention this, but I stumbled across something interesting a few years back.... Some shafts are sealed entirely with regular finish. Usually due to a butterfly spliced shaft, or darker, more grainy woods, etc. Purple heart shafts and a ebony/maple spliced shaft come to mind as being responsible for me trying this out. I figured out a method that worked for me in which I used a finishing polish compound. It's the fine scratch remover grit that I prefer, but the surface seems to stay smoother longer then the wax, and doesn't tack up as bad over time. I have to be cautious when applying It, because You can remove too much material if You over do it as with any compound, but the actual buffing part is no issue at all, you can buff til Your hearts content. I usually don't use It on sanding sealer sealed shafts, but I have and It worked on those too.

I do several type finishes on shafts. Every situation is different as well as the player's preferences. Some people like the sealer knocked off the top, and others like them with the feel of the sealer and a higher shine. The knock down is probably the easiest to make feel smooth. The shinier the surface generally the more difficult to get a feel that will last.

You can get a finish to suffice By hand I suppose, but IMO a lathe or something to spin the shaft in is the only way to go.

Greg
 
It sounds like your repairman is using the BLACK HEART SHAFT PREP that I make & distribute. After the shaft has been cleaned it raises the splintered slivers of wood grain & then when it drys , it can be sanded smooth with 1000 grit sandpaper
 
BLACKHEARTCUES said:
It sounds like your repairman is using the BLACK HEART SHAFT PREP that I make & distribute. After the shaft has been cleaned it raises the splintered slivers of wood grain & then when it drys , it can be sanded smooth with 1000 grit sandpaper
Click to expand...

It works very well :)

Mario
 
Carnuba wax on a SEALED shaft is a good thing. On bare wood, not so much.
Keeping the shaft wood sealed should be a top priority. Some consider the wax by itself
to be an adequate sealer and for the moment, it may seem to be. However, the wax also
leaches into the wood and in the process, will soften it. It will also darken the wood.
Obviously, bare wood is at the mercy of it's environment. Wood breathes and moisture is
not a shaft wood's best friend.

A shaft needs to be sealed with a sealer that will penetrate the wood and provide a hard
surface coating. Once that hard surface is brought to glass-like smoothness, a very light
coating of wax will provide all the 'slick' a player could ask for.
In an ideal scenario, as the shaft is played and ages, the sealer will eventually be
replaced with the oils from your skin forming a natural patina. You won't find a better sealer.
 
Tommy-D said:
A few words of advice on the Armor All. Save that for your dashboard. Products like that almost always have silicone in them,and in the long run cause way more damage than good.
Click to expand...

Cause damage how? And to what specifically?

Thanks for all the replies thus far.

Fatz
 
Allow me to re-ask a question. This guy I know wants to put some kind of liquid on my shaft thus raising the grain, and then sand it. So far I get this. Now this guy is saying that this process will also seal the shaft. Does this make any sense?

Further, should I be asking him what it is he is putting on my shaft? Remember, this is a billiard supply store with some employees. Not a cue maker. He does a perfectly good job of putting on tips, but that is all he has done for me thus far.

Thanks
Fatz
 
Tommy-D said:
Most people will actually prefer to have the sealer sanded off to an extent to improve feel. When this is done by a competent repairman/cuemaker,what is done is they knock off the sealer coat that is left on the outer surface,which leaves what is left in the pores. This can make the shaft feel slicker,but also protects it somewhat by keeping the typical dirt out of the pores,and makes it easier to clean next time.
Click to expand...

Some people say "seal wood", and sometimes "seal pores". Two different ways to say the same thing?

Let me see if I understand this now. The pores are the low spots on the wood and this is where the "atmosphere" enters the wood. The high spots consist of wood fiber but this is not where the pores are. So if you fill the low spots you are protecting the wood from the moisture of the atmosphere from entering the wood - and at the same time - evening out the low spots to the high spots so the wood surface is smoother. So not all the wood is covered, but is considered sealed and protected.

Do I have this right?

So if you actually cover the ENTIRE surface of the wood, then it becomes smooth, but not slippery like a clear coated cue butt? Or is that more of a function of the product used?

Thanks
Fatz
 
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You're right,2 diff ways of saying same thing.

The Armor All liquid has silicone in it,which will keep on going even after the rest of the liquid has dried or been wiped off. Eventually,it will turn the shaft into a fresh banana,wet all the way to the middle. This has warped MANY shafts I'm sure. It also can make it impossible to refinish later,because sealers and clearcoat won't want to stick to it. Same thing as the hood of a car that's been waxed/wiped with the wrong stuff,then years later without you even knowing it,it shows when you try to have the car repainted.

It's not really knocking high spots off the shaft wood,just taking high spots off the sealer back down to the wood to achieve flatness.

You can ask your guy what he's putting on it,but if it's a "homebrew' you may not get a straight answer.

I've seen a Southwest here in town where the owner liked using a glove,and the entire shaft is clearcoated. I wouldn't like it for long,esp in the rainforest humidity here in Tennessee.

When a shaft is sealed,polished out and waxed correctly,it CAN be made so slick it feels like it's been clearcoated,and I've taken it too far and made it LOOK like it was sprayed. I'm sure a lot of us have gotten it down that well.

In your case,I'm guessing that your shaft is fairly new,because grain raise the way you describe it only happens if it's never been prepped since it came out of the box or left the dealer. Tommy D.
 
First off let me say I am not a cuemaker. I am a furniture maker. The only thing that will raise the grain on a shaft is something that has water in it. If he is using it to both raise the grain and fill in the pores then it must be some kind of water based finish.

Shellac, in my experience has always been good for sealing and filling pores. You can also use lacquer sanding sealer.

Chris

Pre-Flag Master said:
Allow me to re-ask a question. This guy I know wants to put some kind of liquid on my shaft thus raising the grain, and then sand it. So far I get this. Now this guy is saying that this process will also seal the shaft. Does this make any sense?

Further, should I be asking him what it is he is putting on my shaft? Remember, this is a billiard supply store with some employees. Not a cue maker. He does a perfectly good job of putting on tips, but that is all he has done for me thus far.

Thanks
Fatz
Click to expand...
 
hdgis1 said:
First off let me say I am not a cuemaker. I am a furniture maker. The only thing that will raise the grain on a shaft is something that has water in it. If he is using it to both raise the grain and fill in the pores then it must be some kind of water based finish.

Shellac, in my experience has always been good for sealing and filling pores. You can also use lacquer sanding sealer.

Chris
Click to expand...

Chris,

You make a great point that is absolutely correct.

I use a waterborne sealer on my shafts before resting between passes when they are being cut down. The product and grain raise after drying makes the wood a little harder as I can hear the higher pitch sound coming off of my blade while it is spinning on my table saw machine.

After the last three passes are complete I use Shellac or lacquer sanding sealer to seal and avoid grain raise.

Now my question is to you as a wood professional:

Which product do you think penetrates deeper into hard maple? I think it is the lacquer sealer but I continue to read statements that say, " Shellac is the best wood sealer in the world".

Today I use both and watch the progress of certain shafts in the field but it is a real crap shoot at this time and not too scientific.

Thanks for any help,

Rick
 
Alchohol penetrates further than water due to its lower viscosity. As far as lacquer vs shellac, Id bet its a toss up. Both are dissolved natural resins. Perhaps in the end, the solids content would determine how far it penetrates.

My assumption is that the statements you read about shellac being the best have more to do with its compatibility with other finishes than its penetrating characteristics. Furthermore, its doesnt have to pentrate all that far. It only has to go in far enough to fill the pores. You might try wet sanding as you finish the shaft so that it creates a slurry of the wood and finish. Although in this case you woudl have to use a sealer that has a slower flash time in order to allow you to do the sanding.

Chris

scdiveteam said:
Chris,

You make a great point that is absolutely correct.

I use a waterborne sealer on my shafts before resting between passes when they are being cut down. The product and grain raise after drying makes the wood a little harder as I can hear the higher pitch sound coming off of my blade while it is spinning on my table saw machine.

After the last three passes are complete I use Shellac or lacquer sanding sealer to seal and avoid grain raise.

Now my question is to you as a wood professional:

Which product do you think penetrates deeper into hard maple? I think it is the lacquer sealer but I continue to read statements that say, " Shellac is the best wood sealer in the world".

Today I use both and watch the progress of certain shafts in the field but it is a real crap shoot at this time and not too scientific.

Thanks for any help,

Rick
Click to expand...
 
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hdgis1 said:
Alchohol penetrates further than water due to its lower viscosity. As far as lacquer vs shellac, Id bet its a toss up. Both are dissolved natural resins. Perhaps in the end, the solids content would determine how far it penetrates.

My assumption is that the statements you read about shellac being the best have more to do with its compatibility with other finishes than its penetrating characteristics. Furthermore, its doesnt have to pentrate all that far. It only has to go in far enough to fill the pores. You might try wet sanding as you finish the shaft so that it creates a slurry of the wood and finish. Although in this case you woudl have to use a sealer that has a slower flash time in order to allow you to do the sanding.

Chris
Click to expand...

Chris,

Wow! I never thought of wet sanding a shaft with a sealer but am I going to be all over that puppy. Of coarse if would have to be dry sanded and burnished after it dries out like I usually do.

If I may ask? What would you recommend as slower flash time products to test.

Thanks so much for your professional advise,

Rick Geschrey
 
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I havent tried it myself, but there are retarders to add to lacquer. You can also try flooding the surface with lacquer as a thicker coat will dry slower. To be honest, most of the wet sanding I do is with oil based products. Not sure if these are traditionally used in cue making but they work wonders on maple and cherry!

Chris

scdiveteam said:
Chris,

Wow! I never thought of wet sanding a shaft with a sealer but am I going to be all over that puppy. Of coarse if would have to be dry sanded and burnished after it dries out like I usually do.

If I may ask? What would you recommend as slower flash time products to test.

Thanks so much for your professional advise,

Rick Geschrey
Click to expand...
 
Speaking of shellac and other things,do any of you use the true or a modified version of French polish technique for applying sealer?

I do. I've never liked the idea of wrapping a paper towel around the shaft while it's spinning then dripping the sealer on. I still spin it though.

I wipe all the sanding dust off my hands (or just go wash them),then take a clean Viva and fold it up as small as I can get it,then put the sealer on the flat side of the folds and take 2 passes from joint to tip,then one back the other way. I then go back over it with a clean dry Viva and let it get good and warm.

Once I get it thinned and smoothed out,I use a white polishing compound to buff it before waxing.

Of course,I'm always looking for better ways. Tommy D.
 
Tommy-D said:
Speaking of shellac and other things,do any of you use the true or a modified version of French polish technique for applying sealer?

Tommy D.
Click to expand...

Yes. I have a French polish mixed with some home made sauce as sealer between cuts. It puts a layer on the shafts real well.
 
"Reraise" the grain? That implies using water. Yes, it has its uses, but why would you want to additionally raise the grain just so you can sand it off? There are a LOT of 'repairmen' who insist the only way to 'clean' a shaft is to SAND all the gunk off of it. That's all fine and good if you have a cue you don't plan on keeping for 20 years. At one time I was burning through tips at the rate of one per month. If one of those folks had sanded my shaft every time I got a new tip, I wouldn't have a cue left. There are many ways to clean a shaft, but in my opinion sanding should not be one of them.
 
hdgis1 said:
First off let me say I am not a cuemaker. I am a furniture maker. The only thing that will raise the grain on a shaft is something that has water in it. If he is using it to both raise the grain and fill in the pores then it must be some kind of water based finish.

Shellac, in my experience has always been good for sealing and filling pores. You can also use lacquer sanding sealer.

Chris
Click to expand...

Chris,

May I pick your brain one more time. What is you experience with Water borne wood finishes and do you think it wood be good for cue application.

I have tried it 6 years ago and for many reasons I did not like it and wish to stay with High Solids Automotive Polyurethane Clear also for many reasons.

Many cue makers here seem to like it but I keep hearing things like, "they have come along way with water borne products". There is also those who tell me they have not gone far enough.

There is an active thread on water borne wood finish going on right now:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=241103

I would really like your opinion as a professional because I know furniture takes a good beating and your would know.

Thanks,

Rick
 
I use deft sanding sealer and it works wonders. You can wet sand with this stuff but on shafts.....I would be worried about trying it......deft and carnuba.....
 
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