14.1 Safety Play - 2nd Ball Quiz

[Dan White]

OK. I'm going to take some of the stuff Stu covered with me and post it up here. I thought I'd take one situation for each post and let anyone interested join the discussion. I think Stu will chime in as he has time. We covered a lot of stuff in my time with Stu so I might have missed a concept here or there. I'm hoping posts like this will help me keep things straight, too.

So here's the first situation. (Note: A "second ball" safety is one where you stick the cue ball to the ball second from the bottom of the rack from the side.) Your opponent has shot into this second ball from the side of the rack -- the 13 ball in this case. Another bit of terminology: Stu uses the term "theat" to indicate a ball that is pocketable if you play a bad safety. In this case the 5 and 6 balls are threats. The cue ball is frozen to the 13 and the tangent line points toward the corner pocket. The 13 is about 1/4 inch away from the 3 ball. The tangent line there points straight up to the head of the table.

What is the correct play and why? Keep in mind that your reply should include your opponent's possible responses.

I hope this becomes a useful idea in the forum. Any takers?

CueTable Help

 

[dmgwalsh]

OK. I'll take a stab. It's not a position I would like to be in.

I would probably take an intentional foul and push the cue ball at the 3 in such a way that the cue ball ended up against the top of the 13 ball, so that if the opponent just tapped the cue ball, I could rub off the 13, go to the side, and back again.

My opponent would move the cue ball just enough so I was no longer adjacent to the 13 ball so the tangent line would not be going straight to the side rail.

 

[center pocket]

Stupid work computers. I can never see these layouts because we dont have adobe shockwave. I always feel like I am missing out.

 

[Bob Jewett]

In most games I'd be willing to give up the first shot in this situation. One way is to thin the 3, hit the right rail as close to the corner as possible and spin to the bottom rail to freeze.

Depending on the exact line to the 3, an alternative is to play a half-masse with the same thin hit so that you hit the bottom rail first and then freeze to the right rail.

Faced with the long 5 shot, your opponent's options are to shoot it or thin the 5 to move it next to the rack and come back up table.

An extension of this is to trade little fouls against the rack and then go to the end rail, but if your opponent shoots away first, you will be facing the long shot on the 5. If you like the 5 for safe or a shot, take the fouls.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Stupid work computers. I can never see these layouts because we dont have adobe shockwave. I always feel like I am missing out.

You are not alone / I feel your pain.

 

[oldplayer]

i like the masse off the 3 (bottom left) over to the short rail or long rail towards upper right hand corner pocket. i don't like swapping fouls back and forth. hmmm, hard to see it from here, but is the OB to the 15,14,2 ball combo into the 11 ball into the corner pocket an option? the 11 ball looks dead in from here.

 

[JCMn]

x-x-x-2-11 looks like a dead combo to me also.....

i like the masse off the 3 (bottom left) over to the short rail or long rail towards upper right hand corner pocket. i don't like swapping fouls back and forth. hmmm, hard to see it from here, but is the OB to the 15,14,2 ball combo into the 11 ball into the corner pocket an option? the 11 ball looks dead in from here.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... hmmm, hard to see it from here, but is the OB to the 15,14,2 ball combo into the 11 ball into the corner pocket an option? the 11 ball looks dead in from here.

In these diagrams it's assumed that nothing is dead unless the poster says it's dead, or says something like, "the 11 is nearly dead depending on the amount of throw you get." It's just too hard to see/place the balls accurately enough.

 

[Eric.]

I prefer to get your opponent on 2, before shooting.

Take 2 intentional fouls. For the second foul, try to barely move the CB so that the CB is touching or nearly touching the 3 ball. After you both are on 2, thin off the 3 ball (real thin) and send the CB to the head rail, frozen, if possible.

The idea here is that you are giving up a dicey shot on the 5, shooting off the head rail. Also, he is on 2 fouls, now.

Eric

 

[14-1StraightMan]

Yes

In most games I'd be willing to give up the first shot in this situation. One way is to thin the 3, hit the right rail as close to the corner as possible and spin to the bottom rail to freeze.

Depending on the exact line to the 3, an alternative is to play a half-masse with the same thin hit so that you hit the bottom rail first and then freeze to the right rail.

Faced with the long 5 shot, your opponent's options are to shoot it or thin the 5 to move it next to the rack and come back up table.

An extension of this is to trade little fouls against the rack and then go to the end rail, but if your opponent shoots away first, you will be facing the long shot on the 5. If you like the 5 for safe or a shot, take the fouls.

This is what I would attempt. Force your opponent to shoot a pressure shot.

The only other thing that I can see that might work is.
By taking a Foul on the 3 ball & pushing out the 2 ball near the 5 ball. Your opponent will take a foul. Then you play a legal Safe up table with the 2 ball blocking the 5 ball, forcing your opponent to attempt a long safe from up table.

 

[Eric.]

This is what I would attempt. Force your opponent to shoot a pressure shot.

The only other thing that I can see that might work is.
By taking a Foul on the 3 ball & pushing out the 2 ball near the 5 ball. Your opponent will take a foul. Then you play a legal Safe up table with the 2 ball blocking the 5 ball, forcing your opponent to attempt a long safe from up table.

I agree with everything EXCEPT that you should get your opponent on 2 fouls (not just one).

The benefit of doing this is that you put more pressure on your opponent. You want him to have to make a dicey shot with the added pressure that if he somehow fouls again, it is a 15 point foul, etc.

Just having him on 1 foul isn't good enough.


Eric

 

[14-1StraightMan]

What If

I agree with everything EXCEPT that you should get your opponent on 2 fouls (not just one).

The benefit of doing this is that you put more pressure on your opponent. You want him to have to make a dicey shot with the added pressure that if he somehow fouls again, it is a 15 point foul, etc.

Just having him on 1 foul isn't good enough.


Eric

Eric:
What you are saying is fine and many times you can do just what you are saying. But.... and it is a big But... What if your opponent figures out what you are trying to do after his/her first foul and sends you up the table with no shot on the 5....? Many things to think about.
A second push foul is good, if your opponent does not leave you the angle that you want to go up table for that good legal safe.
What if again. What if your opponent makes a better second foul then their first and you are really stuck, all b/c you wanted another foul on your opponent. All situations are correct and no one answer is correct. There are so many ways to play it and as long as the player feels like they done their best, that is all you can ask.

 

[Island Drive]

So basic ideas

To I, there are many things you can do. My first thought seeing the natural cue ball scratch in the lower r/h corner, makes me want to clip a ball in the rack and go to the head of the table and not be on -1 first, BUT I would first ck the rack for any dead combos, if there was and ON shot, this alone would then make me NOT go up table. If I could not go up table then I would probably drop whitey to the foot of the table middle spot and take a scratch, BUT first I would ck the rack to make sure there are NO dead combos for either side pocket or either corner pocket from the foot of the table.

 

[center pocket]

Thanks Bob for posting that. I tend to agree with Eric here, I would try to get him on two before going up table. I understand what Mike is getting at with your opponent figuring it out, but I would be willing to take that chance. The reason I like getting him on two is if something funny happens and he some how happens to scratch or not get a rail, then your really got your opponent in a hole.

 

[Eric.]

Eric:
What you are saying is fine and many times you can do just what you are saying. But.... and it is a big But... What if your opponent figures out what you are trying to do after his/her first foul and sends you up the table with no shot on the 5....? Many things to think about.
A second push foul is good, if your opponent does not leave you the angle that you want to go up table for that good legal safe.
What if again. What if your opponent makes a better second foul then their first and you are really stuck, all b/c you wanted another foul on your opponent. All situations are correct and no one answer is correct. There are so many ways to play it and as long as the player feels like they done their best, that is all you can ask.

OK, lets use your example scenario:

-----------------------------------
By taking a Foul on the 3 ball & pushing out the 2 ball near the 5 ball. Your opponent will take a foul. Then you play a legal Safe up table with the 2 ball blocking the 5 ball, forcing your opponent to attempt a long safe from up table.
-----------------------------------

If you want to try this strategy, then you should start by touching the CB for foul 1. Your opponent will do the same. Next, play your move for foul 2. At this point, I doubt your opponent will anticipate your move and shoot the CB to the head of the table. Instead, he will jsut take foul #2.

Why?

Simple. It just ain't worth a potential sell out when you can take a 2nd foul and force your opponent (you) to be the one to possibly 3 foul.

You have to hit the balls perfectly, to get the 2 to roll out and block the 5. Then, you have to roll the CB, perfectly, to get the CB to stop up table and not have a shot on the 5 or 2. You need to play 2 touchy shots with perfect speed control.



Eric

 

[center pocket]

Simple. It just ain't worth a potential sell out when you can take a 2nd foul and force your opponent (you) to be the one to possibly 3 foul.


Eric

This is exactly why I dont think your opponent would would beat you to the end rail. They would want to force you to do it hoping you make a mistake.

 

[Bob Jewett]

...
Take 2 intentional fouls. For the second foul, try to barely move the CB so that the CB is touching or nearly touching the 3 ball. After you both are on 2, thin off the 3 ball (real thin) and send the CB to the head rail, frozen, if possible.
...

It is a mistake to try to go straight to the head rail with the intent of freezing the cue ball unless you don't mind taking another foul. Would you be OK taking three fouls in this situation in case the cue ball doesn't reach?

This is why it's always better, if available, to go to the head rail by way of the side rail. That's why I proposed the half-masse off the 3 ball above. It's a tougher shot, but it gives you a chance to freeze to the end rail without much chance to not get a cushion.

A separate point: An advantage to being on two fouls that is sometimes overlooked is that if, for example, you are on two fouls and make a tough shot from the end rail and scratch, your opponent does not get ball in hand.

 

[Eric.]

It is a mistake to try to go straight to the head rail with the intent of freezing the cue ball unless you don't mind taking another foul. Would you be OK taking three fouls in this situation in case the cue ball doesn't reach?

This is why it's always better, if available, to go to the head rail by way of the side rail. That's why I proposed the half-masse off the 3 ball above. It's a tougher shot, but it gives you a chance to freeze to the end rail without much chance to not get a cushion.

A separate point: An advantage to being on two fouls that is sometimes overlooked is that if, for example, you are on two fouls and make a tough shot from the end rail and scratch, your opponent does not get ball in hand.

Good point, Bob. I did know this, but didn't put as much thought into it (as you pointed out).

With my shot, I would probably nvr wind up frozen to the head rail. Most likely, I would bounce off it a few inches, which would still be fine, IMO.

I'll have to try your masse shot. Perhaps it might be a better way.


Eric

 

[center pocket]

A separate point: An advantage to being on two fouls that is sometimes overlooked is that if, for example, you are on two fouls and make a tough shot from the end rail and scratch, your opponent does not get ball in hand.

Good Point Bob, never thought about that. Something to think about in the next 14.1 tournament.

 

[Eric.]

Good Point Bob, never thought about that. Something to think about in the next 14.1 tournament.

CP, while it's true that you dont get BIH, what you do get is a 16 point deduction from your opponent's score AND the choice of accepting the table as is, or, re-racking and making him break.

Getting your opponent to 3 foul is big.


Eric