thanks for clarifying Eric.
14.1 Safety Play - 2nd Ball Quiz
- Thread starter Dan White
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Excellent, excellent point. Very good. We are all here to learn.
The only other thing that I can add for everyone to think about is:
Have faith in your self in making a proper opening break shot, just in case that in some match you do take that third foul intentionally to avoid giving your opponent an easy shot & running out a few balls that they might need to win the match.
Example: Lets say the score is 147 to 116 in favor of your opponent. There's no way out of the safe that your opponent has put you in and you will surely leave your opponent an easy out. Take the third foul. The score is now 147 to 100. I am confident enough in my abilities that I can play a good opening break shot and get back to the table and run 50 balls.
Know yourself and play to your abilities.
Excellent, excellent point. Very good. We are all here to learn.
The only other thing that I can add for everyone to think about is:
Have faith in your self in making a proper opening break shot, just in case that in some match you do take that third foul intentionally to avoid giving your opponent an easy shot & running out a few balls that they might need to win the match.
Example: Lets say the score is 147 to 116 in favor of your opponent. There's no way out of the safe that your opponent has put you in and you will surely leave your opponent an easy out. Take the third foul. The score is now 147 to 100. I am confident enough in my abilities that I can play a good opening break shot and get back to the table and run 50 balls.
Know yourself and play to your abilities.
Mike, if I played 14.1 as good as you I would be very confident in those abilities too! I agree with what you said, know what you are capable of and this will help you in any game.
Abilities
One thing that I forgot to mention in my last comment. Remember, a player can run 20 balls, then out safe their opponent, run another 15, out safe their opponent again and then run another 15 to win a match 150 to 147.
You do not have to be a 50 ball runner. Also, during a safe session. It is good to take an intentional foul or two forcing your opponent to take one before you playing a good safe. Now, your opponent needs 4 balls instead of 3 balls and so on.
One thing that I forgot to mention in my last comment. Remember, a player can run 20 balls, then out safe their opponent, run another 15, out safe their opponent again and then run another 15 to win a match 150 to 147.
You do not have to be a 50 ball runner. Also, during a safe session. It is good to take an intentional foul or two forcing your opponent to take one before you playing a good safe. Now, your opponent needs 4 balls instead of 3 balls and so on.
No, there is no choice for 3 fouls. It is always a re-rack and opening break. For a while there was a choice, but that's only because someone screwed with the rules in 2000. I was on the Rules Committee at the time and I do not recall any discussion or approval of the rule change. Prior to 2000, the rule had always been as it is now: no choice. Well, at least since 1945, which is before most of us started playing (anything). The rule was corrected in 2008.
Anyone who thought they learned the rules between 2000 and 2008 should read the rule book again. The official rules are on the WPA website.
While the bogus rule was in the BCA rule book, it was surrounded by double quotes, perhaps to indicate its bogosity.
This is a good point. When I'm giving up a huge spot in a handicapped league, each of my fouls is worth only 1/2 or 1/3 of the foul points my opponent is giving up. Similarly, with an even opponent, if he needs 1/5 as many as I need, his scratches cost him five times as much, effectively.
Thanks
Thanks Bob. Also thanks for catching that incorrect statement pertaining to the 3 Foul Rule. I over looked that statement and did not catch it. Glad you pointed that out, so that everyone is on the right page.
Thanks Bob. Also thanks for catching that incorrect statement pertaining to the 3 Foul Rule. I over looked that statement and did not catch it. Glad you pointed that out, so that everyone is on the right page.
Wow! What a great response. I think I learned some interesting ideas already from this thread. Let me respond to the various ideas and hopefully Stu will chime in sometime and correct any misstatements.
First, Dennis got the "Stu approved" answer right off the bat. Take a foul or two with the intention of rearranging the tangent line with the 13 ball. This will allow you to do really the only safe thing, which is to masse off the 13 to the side rail and back to the pack.
As far as sending the cue ball up table, it would first off depend on whether that 11 ball is dead in the corner. I didn't consider that as I was just moving balls a little to simulate a game situation. It is interesting I left that shot without knowing it. Of course you can't do anything uptable if the 11 goes. As far as Bob's idea of shooting off the 3 and leaving a tough angle on the 5, it seems like a plausible solution, but I think you'd have to be sure you can execute the shot. I think you also have to know your opponent. It could be a sell-out to try that shot against a really good shotmaker.
As far as moving the 2 ball to block the 5: When you are in a defensive position, meaning your opponent has put a good safety on you first, your job is to remove threats if possible. His job is to create more and more until you have to sell out. Moving the 2 to block the 5 would remove the 5 as a threat, but I have to think the odds are that you will just create another threat, the 2 ball. Also, how are you going to do this when the cue ball is 1/4 inch away from the 3? I can only think of two ways to do it. One would be a trick shot where you use your index finger against the table rail to stop your cue just as it hits the cue ball, and the other is to just plow the cue tip into the 3, double hitting and basically just mashing the balls around (can you do this and just get -1??). I don't think you can jack up and hit down on the cue ball because you risk drawing the cue ball too far away from the pack and leaving a shot on the 6 or maybe even the 10 in the lower left corner. Also, with the cue ball now several inches away from the pack, your opponent will probably find a row of frozen balls to tap the cue ball into, and move yet another ball (threat) to a rail and out.
I think the idea is to play conservatively when you are on defense and don't get too anxious to make something happen right away. You don't have to win a safety battle with one shot.
First, Dennis got the "Stu approved" answer right off the bat. Take a foul or two with the intention of rearranging the tangent line with the 13 ball. This will allow you to do really the only safe thing, which is to masse off the 13 to the side rail and back to the pack.
As far as sending the cue ball up table, it would first off depend on whether that 11 ball is dead in the corner. I didn't consider that as I was just moving balls a little to simulate a game situation. It is interesting I left that shot without knowing it. Of course you can't do anything uptable if the 11 goes. As far as Bob's idea of shooting off the 3 and leaving a tough angle on the 5, it seems like a plausible solution, but I think you'd have to be sure you can execute the shot. I think you also have to know your opponent. It could be a sell-out to try that shot against a really good shotmaker.
As far as moving the 2 ball to block the 5: When you are in a defensive position, meaning your opponent has put a good safety on you first, your job is to remove threats if possible. His job is to create more and more until you have to sell out. Moving the 2 to block the 5 would remove the 5 as a threat, but I have to think the odds are that you will just create another threat, the 2 ball. Also, how are you going to do this when the cue ball is 1/4 inch away from the 3? I can only think of two ways to do it. One would be a trick shot where you use your index finger against the table rail to stop your cue just as it hits the cue ball, and the other is to just plow the cue tip into the 3, double hitting and basically just mashing the balls around (can you do this and just get -1??). I don't think you can jack up and hit down on the cue ball because you risk drawing the cue ball too far away from the pack and leaving a shot on the 6 or maybe even the 10 in the lower left corner. Also, with the cue ball now several inches away from the pack, your opponent will probably find a row of frozen balls to tap the cue ball into, and move yet another ball (threat) to a rail and out.
I think the idea is to play conservatively when you are on defense and don't get too anxious to make something happen right away. You don't have to win a safety battle with one shot.
Another consideration....when your clipping a ball cluster and going to a defensive position, make sure there is no possibility your are ''creating'' a possible dead on combo.
SJM's solution
Well, I am glad I read Stu's mind. Until you spoke up, there were 25 responses, and no one even discussed my solution. I thought that maybe I was nuts after all.
When I was taking a lesson from Danny Diliberto a few years back, we had that situation. You know how he loves that safe. He always mentions it in commentary. "It's as good as a break shot." he says. Anyway, he said to me, " You know how to answer it, right?" I said I'd take an intentional and move them around a little to change the landscape. He says, "Yeah, but to what end?" I had no answer. That's when he told me that I should try to get right next to a ball so I could brush it, go straight to the rail, and back again.
Another few options, depending upon where and if both balls come out, would be to take an intentional and bank the cue ball right below the 6. In this particular layout, it is difficult because the six is pretty low and right in the middle.
If the five was not quite so easy, I might also lag the ball up to the head rail, either safely or taking a foul. With a little bit of a more difficult shot, I have gotten away with that before, too.
Well, I am glad I read Stu's mind. Until you spoke up, there were 25 responses, and no one even discussed my solution. I thought that maybe I was nuts after all.
When I was taking a lesson from Danny Diliberto a few years back, we had that situation. You know how he loves that safe. He always mentions it in commentary. "It's as good as a break shot." he says. Anyway, he said to me, " You know how to answer it, right?" I said I'd take an intentional and move them around a little to change the landscape. He says, "Yeah, but to what end?" I had no answer. That's when he told me that I should try to get right next to a ball so I could brush it, go straight to the rail, and back again.
Another few options, depending upon where and if both balls come out, would be to take an intentional and bank the cue ball right below the 6. In this particular layout, it is difficult because the six is pretty low and right in the middle.
If the five was not quite so easy, I might also lag the ball up to the head rail, either safely or taking a foul. With a little bit of a more difficult shot, I have gotten away with that before, too.
You Are Correct
Dan:
You are correct with your comment about my statement on moving the 2 ball over near the 5 ball. I went and set this shot up 4 times in my game room before giving up. Each time I failed to achieve what I stated. Twice, the 2 ball did not make it over to the 5 ball. I hit it too softly. The two other attempts, the 2 ball moved over near the 5 ball but the cue ball moved away from the stack much too far leaving dead combo's.
Man........ It looked good on paper.....LOL
Dan:
You are correct with your comment about my statement on moving the 2 ball over near the 5 ball. I went and set this shot up 4 times in my game room before giving up. Each time I failed to achieve what I stated. Twice, the 2 ball did not make it over to the 5 ball. I hit it too softly. The two other attempts, the 2 ball moved over near the 5 ball but the cue ball moved away from the stack much too far leaving dead combo's.
Man........ It looked good on paper.....LOL
Score: Stu 1, StraightMan 0 :smile:
Here's the issue-
In my area, arguably the Straight Pool center of the country, almost everybody plays the 3rd foul as a re-rack. *Almost* everybody. Let me tell you why I said what I said...
Years ago, I was playing a local some straight. The issue of a 3rd foul came up. I told him it was a re-rack and he disputed it. In fact, he went to the counter and pulled out a *BCA, OFFICIAL, World Standardized Rules* book and showed me. I conceded, and went on assuming that the rules had changed.
Several years later, I received a copy of the BCA rulebook from the now Mark Griffin owned BCA Pool leagues and lo and behold, the same rule error is in there. I didn't know it was an error until you pointed it out. I just assumed the rules were changed by the royal senate, kinda like what happened to the 9 ball rules.
That said, I think it is shameful, embarrassing and downright pathetic that the "governing body of Pool" fvcked up so badly. This is a small group of ppl that make up the BCA, not the US Congress. You'd think that they didn't need *9 years* to correct their mistake?
Sorry Bob, I'd be embarrassed to admit I was one of the ppl that was part of that oversight.
Thanks for the rules clarification, though.
Eric
Attachments
OK, so you begin this sequence and I (your opponent) let it proceed until you are on your second foul. I now nudge the cue ball into the 13 again leaving a tangent line that goes near the pocket. Or, if I like the line from the 13 to the cushion that you have created, I play the half-masse when I'm on only one foul. Now you are stuck to the side of the rack, maybe off-angle and on two fouls while I am on no fouls. This depends on my ability to do fine manipulation of the cue ball, but suppose I can.
You're right, I was embarrassed at times, but it's hard for me to deny as my name was listed in print. The BCA abolished the Rules Committee in about 2001 at about the time the bogus rule made its appearance. (Notice the "double quotes" around the item in question.)
If you are able to finely manipulate the cue ball and the balls you hit, then I am pretty much no worse off than before. I may be on two fouls, but then I safe up to the top and let you shoot the shot you may have given away at the beginning.
If, on the other hand, the tinkering with the balls changes the angles a bit, a lot of other opportunities may be possible.
Mike: I have had something like this happen to me before. I left them on the side of the rack. They brushed their way to the top and in so doing, covered a threat. I always wondered whether they did it that way on purpose or were just lucky.
Now that I think about it. Stu, Dan, and Dennis's answer is a very typical one pocket safety and I have seen Scott Frost do something similar on several occasions. I honestly feel that going up table is going to be harder to control and harder not to sell out compared to the "correct" answer. Correct because I feel it is easier to execute.