set and Pause

[JoeyA]

And while we're embracing the science, let's establish a verbal scale so we can completely remove any doubt of getting inaccurate instruction. There can be the distinct pause, the deliberate pause, the definite pause, the long pause, the very long pause, the short pause, the miniscule pause, the waiting for the bus pause, and don't forget about, we all understand the concept of the pause pause. We definitely need to overthink this obvious perceived idea and inject a measurable, robotic time frame into the mix.

Next up is the grip. What is a loose grip? Should it be designated as too tight if there is a metal to metal sound, a slight squeak, a grinding noise, a rubbing sound like before you use a personal lubricant? Can you hold a bird in your hand without crushing it, or an egg, or a rock, or bologna sandwich?

Better yet, when anybody comes on this forum with any idea, let's pile on if there's even a hint of a subjective idea. This game should be totally scientifically debated at every turn and completely ignore the human element. Let it go the way of video games and we don't have to even get up to play it. We can use a controller from our easy chair.

I understand science. I use it everyday for work. I took the electrical engineering route in college. But I haven't lost sight of the concepts of the human mind, like a pause. We get it, we got it, we knew it before we heard about SPF. I'm done. I think I'll pause here. It will be a new, heretofore undocumented pause called...going to work, TTYL. :grin:

Best,
Mike

You are hitting a really, high gear here. You must have also driven an 18 wheeler in a past lifetime. Another way to say it is, you're in dead stroke.

I think we need to start another thread about grips too.

While I love to learn about the science and physics of pocket billiards, it is the unadulterated fly-by-the-seat-of-my-pants portion of pocket billiards that turns my crank.

But then again I'm the kind of guy that doubles over with laughter when watching 3rd Rock from the sun, and Dick (the leader) has a small chimpanzee sit on his lap, he comments that the chimp has a very nice sweater.

 

[Donny Lutz]

True, a number of muscles are used. But the secret is to conserve the energy used: no squeezing, jerking or jabbing. Most of the muscles involved are BARELY involved. Let the cue do the work, not your muscles. The only shot with which I'm CONSCIOUSLY using SOME muscle power is the break. Another way to look at muscle involvement is "relaxed muscles coming gently into play and then relaxing again".

 

[sfleinen]

And while we're embracing the science, let's establish a verbal scale so we can completely remove any doubt of getting inaccurate instruction. There can be the distinct pause, the deliberate pause, the definite pause, the long pause, the very long pause, the short pause, the miniscule pause, the waiting for the bus pause, and don't forget about, we all understand the concept of the pause pause. We definitely need to overthink this obvious perceived idea and inject a measurable, robotic time frame into the mix.

Next up is the grip. What is a loose grip? Should it be designated as too tight if there is a metal to metal sound, a slight squeak, a grinding noise, a rubbing sound like before you use a personal lubricant? Can you hold a bird in your hand without crushing it, or an egg, or a rock, or bologna sandwich?

Better yet, when anybody comes on this forum with any idea, let's pile on if there's even a hint of a subjective idea. This game should be totally scientifically debated at every turn and completely ignore the human element. Let it go the way of video games and we don't have to even get up to play it. We can use a controller from our easy chair.

I understand science. I use it everyday for work. I took the electrical engineering route in college. But I haven't lost sight of the concepts of the human mind, like a pause. We get it, we got it, we knew it before we heard about SPF. I'm done. I think I'll pause here. It will be a new, heretofore undocumented pause called...going to work, TTYL. :grin:

Best,
Mike

Mike:

Good post, albeit a "throw the hands in the air" extremist one. Let's remember one thing, though. It's kind of self-serving when someone states "as fact" (i.e. from an authoritative/instructor position) that "everyone has a pause, whether they know it or not, because physics states that a moving object has to implement a pause to reverse direction" (entirely wrong, from the real physics standpoint), but then everyone back-pedals by stating the real physics guys are being pedantic about it. We like to be right, but when we're called to the carpet about spreading untruths, by folks that really know the subject in question, we like to back-pedal and then say, "oh you guys are being too propeller-head about it -- why can't you just get the 'gist' of what we're trying to say and not let terminology get in the way?"

I think you can see that, from a professional position, if you're trying to quote from an exacting science like physics to back up what you're trying to say, that you better get it right. Or else leave the reference out altogether. It's simple.

I do agree with you, though, that there are some posters on these boards whose approach to pool is ENTIRELY too academic and argumentative, and they nit-pick every little detail along the way here. Heck, I myself was the target of one of these in the "Secrets" thread when I mentioned about my observation about using draw on a thin cut shot in a side pocket to avoid a corner pocket scratch. I don't reply to such detail nit-pickers, because it's not worth it.

Me? I like to study the game -- all facets, including solid body fundamentals, proper technique (big fan of SPF, here), as well as strategy of play. I'm also a big fan of leveraging the subconscious mind; i.e. not letting one's conscious mind get in the way / not analyzing one's way out of one's true abilities. To me, dispelling untruths aside, getting mired in nit-picky details just short circuits one's game.

-Sean

 

[Scott Lee]

Mike...This is one reason why we changed the terminology (for us) to use the term 'cradle' instead of grip (which has a tendency to imply strength). On another note, a UPenn engineering student is constructing a cue for me, that will have a pressure sensitive grip area, and some kind of digital readout/tone/LED that I believe will be beneficial in helping students learn not to hold the cue so tightly. I also have been sent a golf glove that has pressure sensitive pads built into the fingers and palm, that also has a digital readout. I should have that any day now. I'm excited to see if these actually can help students "learn" not to hold the cue so tightly. The truth is it doesn't have to be held tightly even on the break...yet that is where most folks will crank down their grip the most.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Next up is the grip. What is a loose grip? Should it be designated as too tight if there is a metal to metal sound, a slight squeak, a grinding noise, a rubbing sound like before you use a personal lubricant? Can you hold a bird in your hand without crushing it, or an egg, or a rock, or bologna sandwich?

 

[Sealegs50]

Ciscero Murphy exemplifies PAUSE, better yet, ''stops'' at the height of his backswing for 2-3 seconds, all others in the universe are most likely less, wouldn't you agree Randy G?

Island Drive, you nailed it. I had the opportunity to watch the late, great Cisero Murphy play straight pool one afternoon. It was such an unusual stroke, but he made everything he wanted with incredible control. After he left, I got a rack of balls and tried what he did. Not as extreme, but stop, focus on the shot, and make the ball. I don't think I missed a ball for 2 weeks. For me, the backstroke is not part of a windup. It is like cocking the gun. I teach total novices to play that way and it is amazing how quickly they can get up to speed. Unfortunately, I did not have a chance to see Cisero play again. I would have appreciated a few lessons from him.

To add to the discussion, I also noticed Mike Sigal had a distinctive pause at the end of his backstroke on some YouTube videos.

Great comments from Scott Lee. Thanks.

 

[lfigueroa]

Mike:

Good post, albeit a "throw the hands in the air" extremist one. Let's remember one thing, though. It's kind of self-serving when someone states "as fact" (i.e. from an authoritative/instructor position) that "everyone has a pause, whether they know it or not, because physics states that a moving object has to implement a pause to reverse direction" (entirely wrong, from the real physics standpoint), but then everyone back-pedals by stating the real physics guys are being pedantic about it. We like to be right, but when we're called to the carpet about spreading untruths, by folks that really know the subject in question, we like to back-pedal and then say, "oh you guys are being too propeller-head about it -- why can't you just get the 'gist' of what we're trying to say and not let terminology get in the way?"

I think you can see that, from a professional position, if you're trying to quote from an exacting science like physics to back up what you're trying to say, that you better get it right. Or else leave the reference out altogether. It's simple.

I do agree with you, though, that there are some posters on these boards whose approach to pool is ENTIRELY too academic and argumentative, and they nit-pick every little detail along the way here. Heck, I myself was the target of one of these in the "Secrets" thread when I mentioned about my observation about using draw on a thin cut shot in a side pocket to avoid a corner pocket scratch. I don't reply to such detail nit-pickers, because it's not worth it.

Me? I like to study the game -- all facets, including solid body fundamentals, proper technique (big fan of SPF, here), as well as strategy of play. I'm also a big fan of leveraging the subconscious mind; i.e. not letting one's conscious mind get in the way / not analyzing one's way out of one's true abilities. To me, dispelling untruths aside, getting mired in nit-picky details just short circuits one's game.

-Sean

Not to split hairs but it is the nit picking that gets you to the higher levels

A few years ago I heard an interview with Richard Restak, a best selling author who writes about the brain, and one of the things he said was that studies had shown that the greats at sports, chess, and he even mentioned pool players in the interview, have the ability to "fractionate" a task. IOW, they can break something down into very small components and practice long hours to specifically improve those itty bitty elements of their skill.

That is why some people can practice for hours on end. To the casual observer it looks like they're just hitting balls, but the player is actually working on some very, very specific part of his game.

So in my mind, the nit picking about whether there is a pause or what constitutes a pause, or exactly what is a loose or tight grip, is a good thing.

Lou Figueroa

 

[CreeDo]

I started with no pause and adopted it based on forum posts + the habits I'd seen watching pro players online or on tv.

It wasn't easy. At first it revealed ugly habits such as slowing down and steering shots that needed a lot of sidespin off the rail. Then I felt like I could never generate enough force on a long draw stroke (still feel this to an extent, but it's getting a lil better).

Now, on the spin shot, I shoot at the correct lower speed and offset my tip more at the start. On the long draw shot, And I do my best to generate as much forward momentum (without spazzing) as I can if asked to draw at a distance from a dead stop. It feels a bit like the one inch punch (that's what she said?) but I can make the ball and get draw. For real power draw shots I simply can't make the pause work.

If you're wondering if it's worth it, the answer is yes, plain and simple. Whatever hassle and effort you have to go through to learn it, do it. Stick with it. There's a real payoff. My make percentage went way up on long thin cuts, and also long straight ones. When I really need to cinch a shot and focus hard on it, the pause comes out unconsciously now every time.

 

[GoldCrown]

On another note, a UPenn engineering student is constructing a cue for me, that will have a pressure sensitive grip area, and some kind of digital readout/tone/LED that I believe will be beneficial in helping students learn not to hold the cue so tightly. I also have been sent a golf glove that has pressure sensitive pads built into the fingers and palm, that also has a digital readout.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Very innovative. I hope they work out.

 

[Island Drive]

It isn't a pause because it lasts for exactly no time. It isn't a fraction of a second, a tenth of a millisecond, a nanosecond or a millionth of a millionth of a millionth of a millionth of a nanosecond. It is no time. None.
dld

Agreed, but Not with Ciscero Murphy. I always thought he created this type of cueing action from growing up in the hard nose Black Pool rooms of his era, players in these rooms when betting against you, would always ''shark move'' you on your backswing, its as if he knew the shark was a comin', so he waited long enough.........then pulled the trigger. Got to see him play a few times during the Johnston City days bet he could play darts pretty well.
I look at it the same way much like I look at a great baseball pitcher. Their rhythm/tempo at the back is different yet similar to all other pitchers, much like a snake recoiling and striking, in essence....a throwing motion of the weight of the action as it ends and begins again.

 

[sfleinen]

Not to split hairs but it is the nit picking that gets you to the higher levels

A few years ago I heard an interview with Richard Restak, a best selling author who writes about the brain, and one of the things he said was that studies had shown that the greats at sports, chess, and he even mentioned pool players in the interview, have the ability to "fractionate" a task. IOW, they can break something down into very small components and practice long hours to specifically improve those itty bitty elements of their skill.

That is why some people can practice for hours on end. To the casual observer it looks like they're just hitting balls, but the player is actually working on some very, very specific part of his game.

So in my mind, the nit picking about whether there is a pause or what constitutes a pause, or exactly what is a loose or tight grip, is a good thing.

Lou Figueroa

Lou:

Very true, but I was talking more about what goes on here on these boards, not what a player does in his/her practice time. Yes, as long as it's not "show time" (i.e. a match, tournament, or whatever) and one is just practicing, it's EXTREMELY helpful to be mindful of all those things, if you're working on specific aspects. For example, the grip aspect is a good one -- the grip affects how straight/true you deliver the cue, as well as control of how hard or soft. I've wiled away many a pool hour just focusing on grip alone, being hyper-aware of all those little contact points in my grip hand that touch the cue.

But that wasn't my point. The point was where does the need for precision and exactness begin and end? When in a respected instructor position, and you're trying to quote an exacting science to solidify your point (presumably for "indisputability" reasons), make sure you're quoting science correctly, because if you get it wrong, someone with more knowledge will call you out on it, precisely because it's wrong. And if someone does call out the incorrect information, modify the quote so it's correct or remove it altogether. Don't continue to make the false statement in the face of the correct info because the correct info "now breaks a nice solidifying statement that's been used in the syllabus all this time." You said it yourself with the "voodoo" comment. Having to edit student guides or whatever, it's the price you pay for misquoting an exact science.

Where it ends, is taking it beyond that point. I.e. the bickering that goes on here over really silly stuff. That part (vibe) of Mike's post I agree with.

-Sean

P.S.: in my ever-lovin'-learnin' student of the game stance, I'd be interested in some recommended reading from Richard Restak. Any titles you'd personally recommend?

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou:

Very true, but I was talking more about what goes on here on these boards, not what a player does in his/her practice time. Yes, as long as it's not "show time" (i.e. a match, tournament, or whatever) and one is just practicing, it's EXTREMELY helpful to be mindful of all those things, if you're working on specific aspects. For example, the grip aspect is a good one -- the grip affects how straight/true you deliver the cue, as well as control of how hard or soft. I've wiled away many a pool hour just focusing on grip alone, being hyper-aware of all those little contact points in my grip hand that touch the cue.

But that wasn't my point. The point was where does the need for precision and exactness begin and end? When in a respected instructor position, and you're trying to quote an exacting science to solidify your point (presumably for "indisputability" reasons), make sure you're quoting science correctly, because if you get it wrong, someone with more knowledge will call you out on it, precisely because it's wrong. And if someone does call out the incorrect information, modify the quote so it's correct or remove it altogether. Don't continue to make the false statement in the face of the correct info because the correct info "now breaks a nice solidifying statement that's been used in the syllabus all this time." You said it yourself with the "voodoo" comment. Having to edit student guides or whatever, it's the price you pay for misquoting an exact science.

Where it ends, is taking it beyond that point. I.e. the bickering that goes on here over really silly stuff. That part (vibe) of Mike's post I agree with.

-Sean

P.S.: in my ever-lovin'-learnin' student of the game stance, I'd be interested in some recommended reading from Richard Restak. Any titles you'd personally recommend?

Sean, I get your point. I just took the nit picking issue in a different but I think still relevant direction.

If I recall correctly, the interview I heard was on his book, "Mozart's Brain and the Fighter Pilot." I always meant to get around to reading it. Maybe now I will.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Scott Lee]

Sean...Since your post is aimed squarely at me, I'll respond one last time. It's not "wrong science". It's just how you and some others view it. A stop is a stop, whether you believe you can time it or not. We choose to call it a pause, and I personally don't care if that sits well those who think it doesn't. I'm not going to change sematics for the benefit of a few physics 'geeks'. The lesson learned is a benefit to 999/1000 people. That's good enough for me. I never try to make anything 'indisputable'. That would be fruitless, because there are those who choose to argue any point, no matter how ridiculous.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Lou:

When in a respected instructor position, and you're trying to quote an exacting science to solidify your point (presumably for "indisputability" reasons), make sure you're quoting science correctly, because if you get it wrong, someone with more knowledge will call you out on it, precisely because it's wrong. And if someone does call out the incorrect information, modify the quote so it's correct or remove it altogether. Don't continue to make the false statement in the face of the correct info because the correct info "now breaks a nice solidifying statement that's been used in the syllabus all this time." You said it yourself with the "voodoo" comment. Having to edit student guides or whatever, it's the price you pay for misquoting an exact science.

Where it ends, is taking it beyond that point. I.e. the bickering that goes on here over really silly stuff. That part (vibe) of Mike's post I agree with.

-Sean

P.S.: in my ever-lovin'-learnin' student of the game stance, I'd be interested in some recommended reading from Richard Restak. Any titles you'd personally recommend?

 

[lfigueroa]

Sean...Since your post is aimed squarely at me, I'll respond one last time. It's not "wrong science". It's just how you and some others view it. A stop is a stop, whether you believe you can time it or not. We choose to call it a pause, and I personally don't care if that sits well those who think it doesn't. I'm not going to change sematics for the benefit of a few physics 'geeks'. The lesson learned is a benefit to 999/1000 people. That's good enough for me. I never try to make anything 'indisputable'. That would be fruitless, because there are those who choose to argue any point, no matter how ridiculous.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Well, first off, you don't know that 999/10000 number is accurate. In your role as an instructor -- no student is going to question you, if that is where this is coming from, and I can't imagine any other place that it would. Stuff like that only happens very rarely in a real life student - teacher interactions and almost never when the student has signed up to pay for specific instruction, from a specific instructor, on a specific topic.

On a more independent basis, you would be far better off rewriting the lesson plan. Otherwise you don't come off quiet "right" to the many of us who -- while we may not be paying you for a lesson -- do care.

What is the big deal anyway? It costs you nothing to say some folks pause some don't.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Patrick Johnson]

And while we're embracing the science, let's establish a verbal scale so we can completely remove any doubt of getting inaccurate instruction. There can be the distinct pause, the deliberate pause, the definite pause, the long pause, the very long pause, the short pause, the miniscule pause, the waiting for the bus pause, and don't forget about, we all understand the concept of the pause pause. We definitely need to overthink this obvious perceived idea and inject a measurable, robotic time frame into the mix.

Next up is the grip. What is a loose grip? Should it be designated as too tight if there is a metal to metal sound, a slight squeak, a grinding noise, a rubbing sound like before you use a personal lubricant? Can you hold a bird in your hand without crushing it, or an egg, or a rock, or bologna sandwich?

Better yet, when anybody comes on this forum with any idea, let's pile on if there's even a hint of a subjective idea. This game should be totally scientifically debated at every turn and completely ignore the human element. Let it go the way of video games and we don't have to even get up to play it. We can use a controller from our easy chair.

I understand science. I use it everyday for work. I took the electrical engineering route in college. But I haven't lost sight of the concepts of the human mind, like a pause. We get it, we got it, we knew it before we heard about SPF. I'm done. I think I'll pause here. It will be a new, heretofore undocumented pause called...going to work, TTYL. :grin:

Best,
Mike

Unclear terminology is one of the most frequent reasons for misunderstandings on this word-based forum. We discuss concepts and techniques that are physical, often minutely detailed, and not well suited to written description. When feathers get ruffled because somebody's terminology gets "corrected", throwing fuel on the fire isn't the most helpful thing to do.

pj
chgo

 

[Mikjary]

Before this thread goes any further down the toilet from helpful physics corrections and politically accurate statistics and semantics, I would like to know how a pause can improve a player's performance? Is it a physical or mental technique, or both?

Best,
Mike

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Before this thread goes any further down the toilet from helpful physics corrections and politically accurate statistics and semantics

...or from misplaced and inflammatory criticisms of well-intended and helpful posts...

pj
chgo

 

[Mikjary]

Unclear terminology is one of the most frequent reasons for misunderstandings on this word-based forum. We discuss concepts and techniques that are physical, often minutely detailed, and not well suited to written description. When feathers get ruffled because somebody's terminology gets "corrected", throwing fuel on the fire isn't the most helpful thing to do.

pj
chgo

No, but putting the fire out is a better idea. Let's move on. Push the feathers back into place and take a deep breath. Boy, I feel like a real discussion about the OP's original questions could almost get started again! Does anybody else feel that, too? :grin:

Best,
Mike

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Let's move on. Push the feathers back into place and take a deep breath.

Good advice. Try following it.

pj
chgo

 

[Mikjary]

Good advice. Try following it.

pj
chgo

Coming from anybody else, I might listen. Not from the poster child for AZ bannings. You forget...I'm from Chicago, too. I know all the same people you do. Keep talking. It's cheap and you can try to hide behind the keyboard and disrupt threads. You've little respect for the posters you deal with.

So far in the last day or so you've sparred with C.Milian, tried to egg John Barton into a battle, and now it's me. That's your real purpose. Ask Deano. He knows. That's why people don't respond to many of your comments. They don't like confrontation.

I teach people how to deal with it physically and verbally. I recognize your self indulging talents. I think you should start making nice to me and some of the others on here. In fact, the next time I come to Chris's, I think you should buy me lunch. That would make me feel like we could be friends. Sound good? :smile:

Best,
Mike

 

[JohnPT]

You go ahead and train all those muscles.

I use the Tricep & Bicep only.
randyg

That would make sense if they were the only muscles that work on your elbow. How are you consciously able to isolate the biceps and the triceps from the brachialis, brachioradialis, anconeus etc?