Aiming Systems EXPOSED:

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JoeyA

JoeyA

Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
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YOU WANT THE TRUTH? I'm going to tell it like it is. I hope that this thread doesn't offend too many people. I've spent far too much time learning about aiming systems to bite my tongue on this matter.

One of the things you need to play pool well is a perfect sight picture.

YOU MAY NOT NEED A STRUCTURED AIMING SYSTEM TO DEVELOP A PERFECT SIGHT PICTURE.

Some people have a natural ability to learn what a perfect sight picture is supposed to look like. Others can spend countless hours and hit a million balls to develop a perfect sight picture.

Even with a perfect sight picture, you don't have to make the shot.

Some people do not have the natural ability to easily develop a perfect sight picture.

Some people will benefit GREATLY from utilizing an "ACCURATE/STRUCTURED" aiming system and it will enhance their ability to develop a perfect sight picture.

There are haters in every forum, people who get their kicks out of getting in digs on others. They do it mostly for their own perverted amusement, using cute little phrases, ad hominem attacks, emoticoms, ;-0, :-) and other symbols to needle others whom they don't agree with.

This forum is a diverse group of people from all over the world with different opinions about many things.

There are some people who make a living providing pool instruction, selling videos, products etc.

The haters make comments purposefully designed to make someone angry. When they finally get their wish, they act like, "oh, man, where did that come from? I can't believe that someone would want to attack me like that. All I did was give my opinion about something that I believe to be true". Most of us know that isn't the case. Some individuals on this forum take great delight in stirring up trouble. Some individuals take great delight in ridiculing people.

Some of these instructors that are unnecessarily, constantly being poked and prodded by the haters have families to support. They not only have a family to support but have feelings as well. When you attack another person's livelihood, you are crossing the line in this forum, imo. These instructors are not hucksters, snake-oil salesmen, thieves. These instructors not only have accurate, structured methods for helping some people develop perfect sight pictures but they also help students develop their entire game. The constant needling of those who disagree with what they are teaching is harmful to this forum, the livelihood of the instructors.

I myself have learned multiple aiming systems and have no doubt that aiming systems help many people to develop perfect sight pictures.

The haters are just being haters and it is a said thing to see in this forum.

When I think about some of the instructors that have been needlessly and continuously being attacked by a few, it makes me sick to my stomach.

Some of these instructors have world class pool players coming to their classes on a regular basis. It's not just world class pool players who seek out some of these instructors but also the new students of the game and even more experienced students seeking (SECRETS) and knowledge.

I hope others will be more vocal in reprimanding those haters who seek to satisfy their egos at the expense of others, especially those who are attempting to make the pool world a better place. I don't know any instructors who are not honorable, not one.

THIS HATING ON INSTRUCTORS HAS TO STOP.

I hope those of you who see this type of hating will not remain silent and that you will join me in an attempt to stop the hating on aiming systems and instructors.

The bottom line is many people utilize aiming systems to enhance their sight pictures. Some of the aiming systems are accurate methods for obtaining the perfect sight picture while others rely on quasi-accurate visual perspectives to help the player reach the perfect sight picture. The hating that goes on in this forum concerning practitioners of aiming systems is despicable but that will be saved for another thread.

A gifted few don't need any method for aiming, they just do it naturally while most of us think that if we hit a million balls, we will eventually get it and sometimes, we do and sometimes we don't. The vast majority of people will profit from using some structured method of aiming.

The bottom line is no one has the right to hate on instructors who are trying to support their families, constantly needling those instructors when they don't agree with them and I would love to see it come to an end.
 
Meh.

Its the nature of this internet beast.


You get a lot of wheat, but a whole hell of a lot more chaff.
 
I learned from Hal it did help me greatly. I was first introduced to the system by Tom Simpson. Let people make their living. I'm sure there is things that all the instructor could teach everyone of us. Also have learned from Ronny V. Also Tom Monoski.
 
JoeyA said:
One of the things you need to play pool well is a perfect sight picture.

YOU MAY NOT NEED A STRUCTURED AIMING SYSTEM TO DEVELOP A PERFECT SIGHT PICTURE.
Click to expand...
Well stated Joey. I agree 100%!

I think your "sight picture" might be a combination of "aiming," "visual alignment," and "sighting." To pocket balls consistently and accurately, one must be good at all of these things (and have a consistent and accurate stroke).

FYI, I just wrote a series of articles for Billiards Digest on this exact topic. Here they are:

Here's how I defined the three terms in the articles:
aiming: determining the line of the cue necessary to send the cue ball (CB) to the desired ghost-ball (GB) position to cut the object ball (OB) the required amount for the shot.

alignment: how you position your body and head to best enable you to place and stroke the cue along the desired line.

sighting: eye alignment and line of focus used to best visualize and achieve the desired aiming line.​

The visual "alignment" part is critical. If your vision is not aligned properly and consistently, your eyes will lie to you. I like to refer to the proper visual alignment as the vision center. My alignment article presents some background and a drill on how to find this.

Regards,
Dave
 
hmmm

Tap, Tap, Tap !!!

Dont rightly know why anyone cares how someone else learns to shoot pool or what system they use. I know a guy who still uses the "shoot the lights" technique, and it works for him. Prob won't be in the HOF anytime soon, but he can play fine in leagues, and maybe he missses some shots now and again because of it or maybe because of his mechanics.

I've never seem anyone get on anybody about pool instruction more than some pool players. Tennis, nope. Golf, nope. Baseball, nope. Football, nope. etc, etc. If you never needed instruction and play lights out....well good for you, but not everybody is a natural at all sports !!!
 
JoeyA said:
YOU WANT THE TRUTH? I'm going to tell it like it is. I hope that this thread doesn't offend too many people. I've spent far too much time learning about aiming systems to bite my tongue on this matter.

One of the things you need to play pool well is a perfect sight picture.

YOU MAY NOT NEED A STRUCTURED AIMING SYSTEM TO DEVELOP A PERFECT SIGHT PICTURE.

Some people have a natural ability to learn what a perfect sight picture is supposed to look like. Others can spend countless hours and hit a million balls to develop a perfect sight picture.

Even with a perfect sight picture, you don't have to make the shot.

Some people do not have the natural ability to easily develop a perfect sight picture.

Some people will benefit GREATLY from utilizing an "ACCURATE/STRUCTURED" aiming system and it will enhance their ability to develop a perfect sight picture.

There are haters in every forum, people who get their kicks out of getting in digs on others. They do it mostly for their own perverted amusement, using cute little phrases, ad hominem attacks, emoticoms, ;-0, :-) and other symbols to needle others whom they don't agree with.

This forum is a diverse group of people from all over the world with different opinions about many things.

There are some people who make a living providing pool instruction, selling videos, products etc.

The haters make comments purposefully designed to make someone angry. When they finally get their wish, they act like, "oh, man, where did that come from? I can't believe that someone would want to attack me like that. All I did was give my opinion about something that I believe to be true". Most of us know that isn't the case. Some individuals on this forum take great delight in stirring up trouble. Some individuals take great delight in ridiculing people.

Some of these instructors that are unnecessarily, constantly being poked and prodded by the haters have families to support. They not only have a family to support but have feelings as well. When you attack another person's livelihood, you are crossing the line in this forum, imo. These instructors are not hucksters, snake-oil salesmen, thieves. These instructors not only have accurate, structured methods for helping some people develop perfect sight pictures but they also help students develop their entire game. The constant needling of those who disagree with what they are teaching is harmful to this forum, the livelihood of the instructors.

I myself have learned multiple aiming systems and have no doubt that aiming systems help many people to develop perfect sight pictures.

The haters are just being haters and it is a said thing to see in this forum.

When I think about some of the instructors that have been needlessly and continuously being attacked by a few, it makes me sick to my stomach.

Some of these instructors have world class pool players coming to their classes on a regular basis. It's not just world class pool players who seek out some of these instructors but also the new students of the game and even more experienced students seeking (SECRETS) and knowledge.

I hope others will be more vocal in reprimanding those haters who seek to satisfy their egos at the expense of others, especially those who are attempting to make the pool world a better place. I don't know any instructors who are not honorable, not one.

THIS HATING ON INSTRUCTORS HAS TO STOP.

I hope those of you who see this type of hating will not remain silent and that you will join me in an attempt to stop the hating on aiming systems and instructors.

The bottom line is many people utilize aiming systems to enhance their sight pictures. Some of the aiming systems are accurate methods for obtaining the perfect sight picture while others rely on quasi-accurate visual perspectives to help the player reach the perfect sight picture. The hating that goes on in this forum concerning practitioners of aiming systems is despicable but that will be saved for another thread.

A gifted few don't need any method for aiming, they just do it naturally while most of us think that if we hit a million balls, we will eventually get it and sometimes, we do and sometimes we don't. The vast majority of people will profit from using some structured method of aiming.

The bottom line is no one has the right to hate on instructors who are trying to support their families, constantly needling those instructors when they don't agree with them and I would love to see it come to an end.
Click to expand...


Joey, I have always respected your opinion but on this topic I can agree and both disagree.

You start this this thread with the title of Aiming Systems exposed and I understand why you have chosen those words. But there is no need for another thread like you stated above because that is what you have used this thread to do.

I think that yes you are right some of the forums members do certainly intentionally try to create problems for no other reason than some sick form of enjoyment. However, not everyone who disagrees with these systems has ulterior motives designed to belittle or personally attack those who teach or use these systems.

In some cases some the proponents of these systems also exhibit the same negative behavior as those who disagree with these systems. I personally think that the only way to truly stop this behavior is to stand up against anyone who acts in an unprofessional manner whether they agree with or don't agree with this topic or any other topic for that matter.

JIMO
 
JoeyA said:
The bottom line is no one has the right to hate on instructors who are trying to support their families, constantly needling those instructors when they don't agree with them and I would love to see it come to an end.
Click to expand...

Why not???

I have a job too. If I give my boss or co-workers information that is suspect I get questioned on it. If the information is really suspect I could get fired for it.

If you make a living as an instructor and you come on this site to discuss topics, you should be more than ready to defend your views. Which by the way, several instructors are more than willing to do.

If someone says something that I disagree with and the mood strikes me - I will post a reply. I don't give a rip if they are an instructor or not.

I miss the good old days when message boards were used for lively debate. Anymore, it seems like everyone is so sensitive. Now ALL OPINIONS need to be treated like equals. THEY ARE NOT!
 
dr_dave said:
Well stated Joey. I agree 100%!

I think your "sight picture" might be a combination of "aiming," "visual alignment," and "sighting." To pocket balls consistently and accurately, one must be good at all of these things (and have a consistent and accurate stroke).

FYI, I just wrote a series of articles for Billiards Digest on this exact topic. Here they are:

Here's how I defined the three terms in the articles:
aiming: determining the line of the cue necessary to send the cue ball (CB) to the desired ghost-ball (GB) position to cut the object ball (OB) the required amount for the shot.

alignment: how you position your body and head to best enable you to place and stroke the cue along the desired line.

sighting: eye alignment and line of focus used to best visualize and achieve the desired aiming line.​

The visual "alignment" part is critical. If your vision is not aligned properly and consistently, your eyes will lie to you. I like to refer to the proper visual alignment as the vision center. My alignm
ent article presents some background and a drill on how to find this.


Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...

I noticed you just wrote this article last month....did you gather this info after reading a few of genos ideas?......right here on azb?
 
C.Milian said:
dr_dave said:
Well stated Joey. I agree 100%!

I think your "sight picture" might be a combination of "aiming," "visual alignment," and "sighting." To pocket balls consistently and accurately, one must be good at all of these things (and have a consistent and accurate stroke).

FYI, I just wrote a series of articles for Billiards Digest on this exact topic. Here they are:

Here's how I defined the three terms in the articles:
aiming: determining the line of the cue necessary to send the cue ball (CB) to the desired ghost-ball (GB) position to cut the object ball (OB) the required amount for the shot.

alignment: how you position your body and head to best enable you to place and stroke the cue along the desired line.

sighting: eye alignment and line of focus used to best visualize and achieve the desired aiming line.​

The visual "alignment" part is critical. If your vision is not aligned properly and consistently, your eyes will lie to you. I like to refer to the proper visual alignment as the vision center. My alignment article presents some background and a drill on how to find this.
Click to expand...
I noticed you just wrote this article last month....did you gather this info after reading a few of genos ideas?......right here on azb?
Click to expand...
I actual mentioned Gene in the August article. I also mentioned Richard Kranicki and Mike Page, who have also contributed good information and resources on these topics. I've also thought about and experimented with this stuff personally for a long time. The eyes and vision FAQ page (including the vision center stuff) has been on my website for many years, long before Gene came on the scene. Regardless, the material in the articles is important, and I think the articles do a decent job summarizing and illustrating the information.

Regards,
Dave
 
IMO

I don't think anyone expects or is expected to simply keep their opinions to themselves, for fear of a 'disagreement' somewhere along the way. The problem arises when someone gets personal, or just downright ridiculous.

what to do, what to do. hmmm.

Well, I suggest that you all (especially the haters) review the legal definition of libel, and remember that you can be held liable for what you post on the internet.
 
Raise your right hand and repeat

dr_dave said:
I actual mentioned Gene in the August article. I also mentioned Richard Kranicki and Mike Page, who have also contributed good information and resources on these topics. I've also thought about and experimented with this stuff personally for a long time. The eyes and vision FAQ page (including the vision center stuff) has been on my website for many years, long before Gene came on the scene. Regardless, the material in the articles is important, and I think the articles do a decent job summarizing and illustrating the information.

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...

It just seems that you acredited people you know more than the actual people you derived your "original" ideas from. Gene seems to be deserving of more credit.

As outlined in bright pink, your statement seems to embody the type of person that has all this knowledge only to have recently want to spill the beans...for whatever reason.

Patrick Johnson has claimed many times that your site holds "most" there is about pool, therefore no secrets exist.
 
C.Milian:
Patrick Johnson has claimed many times that your site holds "most" there is about pool, therefore no secrets exist.
Click to expand...
I've claimed that (or something like it) once - and this is the second time you've got it wrong. I'll give you a few more tries before I call the cops.

pj
chgo
 
JoeyA said:
YOU WANT THE TRUTH? I'm going to tell it like it is. I hope that this thread doesn't offend too many people. I've spent far too much time learning about aiming systems to bite my tongue on this matter.

One of the things you need to play pool well is a perfect sight picture.

YOU MAY NOT NEED A STRUCTURED AIMING SYSTEM TO DEVELOP A PERFECT SIGHT PICTURE.

Some people have a natural ability to learn what a perfect sight picture is supposed to look like. Others can spend countless hours and hit a million balls to develop a perfect sight picture.

Even with a perfect sight picture, you don't have to make the shot.

Some people do not have the natural ability to easily develop a perfect sight picture.

Some people will benefit GREATLY from utilizing an "ACCURATE/STRUCTURED" aiming system and it will enhance their ability to develop a perfect sight picture.

There are haters in every forum, people who get their kicks out of getting in digs on others. They do it mostly for their own perverted amusement, using cute little phrases, ad hominem attacks, emoticoms, ;-0, :-) and other symbols to needle others whom they don't agree with.

This forum is a diverse group of people from all over the world with different opinions about many things.

There are some people who make a living providing pool instruction, selling videos, products etc.

The haters make comments purposefully designed to make someone angry. When they finally get their wish, they act like, "oh, man, where did that come from? I can't believe that someone would want to attack me like that. All I did was give my opinion about something that I believe to be true". Most of us know that isn't the case. Some individuals on this forum take great delight in stirring up trouble. Some individuals take great delight in ridiculing people.

Some of these instructors that are unnecessarily, constantly being poked and prodded by the haters have families to support. They not only have a family to support but have feelings as well. When you attack another person's livelihood, you are crossing the line in this forum, imo. These instructors are not hucksters, snake-oil salesmen, thieves. These instructors not only have accurate, structured methods for helping some people develop perfect sight pictures but they also help students develop their entire game. The constant needling of those who disagree with what they are teaching is harmful to this forum, the livelihood of the instructors.

I myself have learned multiple aiming systems and have no doubt that aiming systems help many people to develop perfect sight pictures.

The haters are just being haters and it is a said thing to see in this forum.

When I think about some of the instructors that have been needlessly and continuously being attacked by a few, it makes me sick to my stomach.

Some of these instructors have world class pool players coming to their classes on a regular basis. It's not just world class pool players who seek out some of these instructors but also the new students of the game and even more experienced students seeking (SECRETS) and knowledge.

I hope others will be more vocal in reprimanding those haters who seek to satisfy their egos at the expense of others, especially those who are attempting to make the pool world a better place. I don't know any instructors who are not honorable, not one.

THIS HATING ON INSTRUCTORS HAS TO STOP.

I hope those of you who see this type of hating will not remain silent and that you will join me in an attempt to stop the hating on aiming systems and instructors.

The bottom line is many people utilize aiming systems to enhance their sight pictures. Some of the aiming systems are accurate methods for obtaining the perfect sight picture while others rely on quasi-accurate visual perspectives to help the player reach the perfect sight picture. The hating that goes on in this forum concerning practitioners of aiming systems is despicable but that will be saved for another thread.

A gifted few don't need any method for aiming, they just do it naturally while most of us think that if we hit a million balls, we will eventually get it and sometimes, we do and sometimes we don't. The vast majority of people will profit from using some structured method of aiming.

The bottom line is no one has the right to hate on instructors who are trying to support their families, constantly needling those instructors when they don't agree with them and I would love to see it come to an end.
Click to expand...


Please don’t bite your tongue, you might get an infection or sumthin’ :-P

(oops, was that one of those awful emoticons?)

Joey, just because you have a different opinion than mine (and use up a lot of blue ink) does not make you a Lou Hater (a Smurf maybe, but not a Lou Hater :-o ) There has never been and never should be a problem with folks expressing their honest opinion here, even if it diverges markedly from (gasp!) things you hold true -- you might remember something about all that from your days as a Marine. You know: the First Amendment, freedom of speech, the market place of ideas, and the one that went “I may disagree with you but will defend to the death...” :-/

Not all instructors are bad. Some are great. I personally have taken lessons a few times (Steve Cook, Dallas West, and Freddy the Beard), so it’s definetly not a case of hating or bashing instructors O:-) (Though not a one of them guys mentioned an aiming system or dominant eyeballs ;-D ) Rather, it is just having the opinion that *some* guys, here, push stuff that I personally think is snake oil. (Oh my God, I said it out loud :-O ) What I didn’t say was that all aiming systems are crap; or that instruction is a waste of time; or that the only way to learn is to blindfold yourself and hit a million balls; or even that no one could benefit from instruction, or a theory, or a system that I personally think is crappola.

"Everyman must find his own salvation" (someone once said) and if some guys out there truly believe that they are better off air and hip pivoting at ball edges; or putting their cue under one eye vs the other; or dancing La Cucaracha before each shot, I say "Mazeltov!"

But that should not mean that I can’t say I think they are nuts.

What you are advocating in this thread, you know, the part where you say, “I hope others will be more vocal in reprimanding those haters who seek to satisfy their egos at the expense of others, especially those who are attempting to make the pool world a better place" is to encite a mob. It's actually a kinda jihad-like thing to say.

So, end of the day, whether you likes it or not, we're all still entitled to our opinions, you little Snake Oil Lover, you :-*

Lou Figueroa
 
Lou:
What you are advocating in this thread, you know, the part where you say, “I hope others will be more vocal in reprimanding those haters who seek to satisfy their egos at the expense of others, especially those who are attempting to make the pool world a better place" is to encite a mob. It's actually a kinda jihad-like thing to say.
Click to expand...
It's actually just a way to demonize those who disagree with Joey's views. "Everybody please hate the haters who disagree with me!"

I wish everybody would stop quoting every line of Joey's post. I'm seeing big blue spots.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
It's actually just a way to demonize those who disagree with Joey's views. "Everybody please hate the haters who disagree with me!"

I wish everybody would stop quoting every line of Joey's post. I'm seeing big blue spots.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...


I quote all his stuff for posteriority.

Lou Figueroa
 
C.Milian said:
It just seems that you acredited people you know more than the actual people you derived your "original" ideas from.
Click to expand...
Did you read the articles? What "original ideas" are you referring to?

I tried to acknowledge people with resources on these topics. Here are some quotes from my articles:
from my July '11 article:
Richard Kranicki makes a strong case for a centered alignment in his book: “Answers To A Pool Player’s Prayers,” which covers visual alignment issues quite well.

from my August '11 article:
Diagram 1b shows an approach where the sighting line is through the contact point (CP) on both the CB and OB. In NV B.3, Mike Page makes an argument that this sighting option is a reasonable choice, especially for thin cuts. By the way, Mike’s video provides an excellent introduction and overview of aiming and sighting concepts. If you haven’t seen it yet, you might want to take a few minutes to check it out.

from my August '11 article:
As Mike Page points out in NV B.3, any sighting line that is not parallel to the desired aiming line of the shot (i.e., the line of the cue) is problematic and should probably be avoided.

from my August '11 article:
Diagram 1c shows a sighting approach where you align the inside eye (i.e., the eye on the cut side of the shot) with the inside edge of the CB so you can more clearly visualize the ball-hit fraction (i.e., amount of ball "overlap") required for the desired angle of cut. This is the approach suggested by Gene Albrecht on his “Perfect Aim” DVD. He makes the argument that the inside eye is probably more instrumental in visualizing the amount of ball overlap, so this type of alignment might help some people. For most adults, the eye separation (pupil-to-pupil) distance is just a little larger than the diameter of the CB; so with this approach the cue will always be fairly close to being centered between the eyes. However, because of this pupil-to-pupil distance, there will typically be a slight head shift to the left for cuts to the right, relative to a centered alignment over the cue, and a slight head shift to the right for cuts to the left.​

I think I have given credit where credit is due. And I honestly can't understand why you seem to have a problem with these quotes specifically or with my articles in general.

Honestly, I don't think any of the "ideas" in the article are very original; although, I think I have done a good job illustrating and describing all of the effects. That is my "contribution."

I'm sure most of this stuff has been thought about and discussed by people for hundreds of years. A good example is the drill in the July article for finding one's vision center. I didn't copy or learn this from anyone, but I'm sure there are instructors out there that probably do something similar. If not, they should consider it. Is this an "original idea?" I don't think so. Did I learn it from somebody? I don't think so.

Regards,
Dave
 
Last edited:
C.Milian said:
PJ said once you know almost everything....therefore no secrets exist.
Click to expand...
Well, I think I said Dave has most of the available knowledge about pool on his web site (although he probably does know it all), and I don't think I said "therefore" no secrets exist, just cited it as evidence that none do.

You're getting closer to the truth so I'll call off the cops.

I stand by the meat of that statement, by the way. Dave does have most pool info on his site, and there are no secrets.

pj
chgo
 
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