Dragon World 14.1 Tournament, is still the World 14.1 Championships

[JAM]

Can you blame the addict who continues to put a needle in his arm? Until the needle is tossed away for good, the patient remains sick (and pool players persist without a decent payday)...

I'm not sure I am following your analogy. Are you saying the pool players should throw away their cue sticks? Maybe I am not understanding how one can compare substance abuse or addiction to playing pool professionally.

If you have starving American professional players, you can best believe that when somebody throws them a few crumbs, they're going to grab as many of those crumbs as they can to survive -- sharing those precious crumbs, I might add, with visiting international professional pool players who flock to our shore each and every year. The BCA and the WPA eat whole slices of the pool pie, while the pool players scramble for any leftover crumbs.

Of course, one could say nobody told these professional players to play pool for living. Maybe they should quit playing pool and get a job. Well, if you haven't noticed, the existing lot of American professional players is dwindling. That right there speaks volumes.

Honestly, what is unsettling to me is how some -- not all -- in the American pool culture criticize the players with things like they never give back, don't do anything to promote pool, are scum of the earth, et cetera, et cetera.

Meanwhile, as one example, Melissa Little, a professional player, puts on numerous charity events each and every year. There's very little recogniztion for this effort. A flame thread about aiming gets more attention than Melissa's contribution to promote pool in a positive light. :frown:

Allen Hopkins is going to be doing a charity event in Pennsylvania next month. There is more forum activity on a football poll in the Action Room section of this forum than there is on Allen's contribution to promote pool in a positive light.

I guess it's easy to cast blame for the reason why pool sucks in America. Heck, I'm blaming the BCA.

 

[lfigueroa]

Softshot -

It seems you are missing the point.
As I see it, there are criteria to calling an event a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP.
When that title is in use, the winner should be able to expect certain things - one of which is going down in the record book.

When there are no established criteria - then anyone anywhere can have a world championship.

I understand what you are saying, since there are no 14.1 World Championship in the works (that I know of).

But - in the past there has been a lot of abuse. And the WPA needs to stop the confusion. No legitimate group will go forward to have 14.1 World Championship if there is an 'unofficial' one going on.

The WPA position just makes sense if you study the underlying facts.

I still think the real question is why did Dragon Promotions help create this confusion. All of this could have been avoided. Why does this have to be called a WORLD event? This is really a US event - there are very few from overseas - which a sanctioned event would probably get.

I am not trying to argue with anyone. But how in the world do you expect Pool and Billiards to get any respect when you can go out and have a world championship and just pull players out of the stands to play?

Sorry - it just does not make sense for the long term health of the industry.

The solution would have been to call this event something else. (North American 14.1 Championship??)

Mark Griffin

They pull players out of the stands?!

Lou Figueroa

 

[JAM]

They pull players out of the stands?!

Lou Figueroa

You actually do read well. I missed that when I pored through the thread this morning. :embarrassed2:

 

[lfigueroa]

Azbilliards can call any event world championship that they want - but that does not make them a world champion. They would not be in the record books and azbiliards press release would quickly be forgotten.

Mark griffin

This is not entirely so. One of the things historians do is to go back and look at how the media covered events. Since most pool doings aren't being covered by "The New York Times" or CNN nowadays that boils down to the pool media, such as it is. 100 years from now -- if anyone still cares -- how AZ covered tournaments will have impact on who is remembered as the World Champion, IMO.

Lou Figueroa

 

[angiepangy]

Sorry, I didn't fully read this thread but out of curiosity.. how does the WPA regard "World Pool Masters" and the "World Cup of Pool"?

 

[JAM]

Sorry, I didn't fully read this thread but out of curiosity.. how does the WPA regard "World Pool Masters" and the "World Cup of Pool"?

Maybe the organizers paid their WPA tax allowing them to be called "world"? I'm not sure. Good point.

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

Most do not understand what the WPA does - or their responsibilities. It is their job to protect the title "WORLD", and that is what they are doing.

There have been way too many events being called world events - all that does is make the 'real' world event title mean a lot less.

I have made these points on several threads because all of these issues could have easily been avoided. By DP and CW. They are the ones that called this a 'World Tournament' - knowing that this would mislead the public.

They have tried to tell the world this is the 71st time this event has occurred. Has anyone looked at the previous champions listed? How about the fact that many of these were not tournaments - but rather challenge matches? Do you think Willie Mosconi played in an event for Dragon Promotions? Or Irving Crane or Luther Lassiter (and many more)

That is misleading - and maybe could even be called deception. The question should be - why did DP do this? Perhaps they should have called this the 3rd World Tournament - that would be far more accurate. But it still is NOT a world championship!

As Jerry pointed out, there has to be guidelines to have a recognized World Championship. With WPA recognition, other Federations will send their top players to make an event truly an international event. Without WPA sanctioning, an event is really nothing more than just a tournament.

There seems to be a fascination in using the name World in a pool tournament. It cheapens the game and the title for everyone.

Mark Griffin

I had wondered what CW's and Dragon Promotions perspective was on this controversy. Hence this excerpt from a DP press release might be of relevance to this discussion:

Once again the greatest straight pool players from around the world will arrive on USA's east coast again to attend this prestigious event. Their common goal will be to play for the coveted World Tournament of 14.1 title and be recognized as the #1 Straight Pool Player on Earth. The World Tournament is the oldest tournament in history that still exists today. Invented by Jerome Keough and shortly after recognized as the official game of billiards. The first World 14.1 Tournament was held in 1911 and won by Alfredo DeOro. In its history due to war and economics, the World Championships had 29 tournaments that did not take place including a 15 year gap between 1990-2005 until Dragon Promotions revived the game and the World Tournament in 2006.
By Press Release - 2011-08-30​

 

[FranCrimi]

Maybe the organizers paid their WPA tax allowing them to be called "world"? I'm not sure. Good point.

Let's talk about sanction fees for a minute here ------

Every governing body has them. The WPA is changing it to entry fees, but that's just the same thing in the end if that money goes to the WPA.

I think the WPA made one of it's earliest biggest mistakes in yielding to Matchroom who wanted to do the unprecedented thing of taking the sanction fee out of the pockets of the players.

Sanction fees are fees that should be paid by the organizer over and above the prize fund, mainly in payment for the organizer's media rights for the event. Unfortunately, Matchroom at the time was the only game in town and I guess the WPA was afraid to lose them when they insisted on taking the fees out of the players' paychecks.

That set a precedent for other organizers to take sanction fees out of the pockets of the players. So what's actually happening now with sanction fees is that the organizers' media rights are being paid to the WPA by the players. That is just wrong and never should have been allowed.

And now it's happening on local levels worldwide.

The players should seriously step up to the plate and demand that the event organizers pay for their own media rights.

One of the things the BCA did do right was to be the only organizer in WPA sanctioned international championships to not take the sanction fees from the pockets of the players, while no one would have argued if they had, since it was now an accepted practice. They never received credit for this.

 

[JAM]

...One of the things the BCA did do right was to be the only organizer in WPA sanctioned international championships to not take the sanction fees from the pockets of the players, while no one would have argued if they had, since it was now an accepted practice. They never received credit for this.

I guess I'm not understanding what you mean. When you say "media rights," what media are you referring to?

About the BCA, what WPA-sanctioned international championship have they organized? Please share a little nugget of wisdom here, so I can understand.

 

[Neil]

..............

 

[JAM]

Mike and Jerry- thanks for the post that explains the WPA a little better.

While that post does explain their side, I don't believe it is the final say so. They make some good points, but are lacking many other points. Bottom line is, they are just another of several organizations. They lay claim to wanting to unite pool, yet all they really do is say that so much $$ has to be added, and then skim a bunch of those $$$ off the top.

They say they want to unite pool by saying only THEIR sanctioned tournaments are world championships. THEIRS are the only ones that count! They won't even recognize the BCA World Champions!

I tend to see it a lot like boxing. There are many federations, all recognized with no problem. They don't recognize each others as their champions, but nevertheless DO recognize them as champions under a different federation.

To me, if the WPA wants the recognition of the masses, they need to do a lot more than just make up a set of rules for their organization, claim to be the only recognized body of pool, and collect dollars.

As far as the WPA having to send reps all over the world for their events, that's just a perk they set up for themselves. Their is no need to spend all that money on travel. Not with the internet in place! Other business do business over the internet every day, no reason they can't also. That's just a slap in the face to those having to pay sanction fees. At least Dragon Promotions actually tries to promote pool. The WPA doesn't even do that.

If the WPA wants to be recognized as the final authority in pool, they need to actually start doing something for pool besides demanding $$. For one, if it's a pro tournament, it should only be pros. So.... first question would be, what and who is a pro?? What are the requirements to being a pro? What advantages does being a pro have that being an unlisted player doesn't have? In other words, if they want to be the head of a professional organization, then do something for it besides demanding that they are the head and an ridiculous amount of money has to be added or it doesn't count. What are THEY doing to help get that amount of money added? Or do they just collect "their" share of it after someone else does all the work?

I don't agree with some of C. Williams decisions either, but at least his organization actually does something for the betterment of pool other than saying they do something and coming up with another set of rules.

Hear, hear, and a tap, tap, tap! :clapping::clapping::clapping:

The boxing analogy is a good one!

I agree with everything you have written, especially the last sentence. I am not a fan of CW or Dragon, but I cannot discount the fact that they collectively are doing something positive for pool.

If Matchroom can be given a pass by the WPA, then so too should Dragon.

 

[angiepangy]

I also don't really understand the whole thing about sanction fees and why Matchroom has created a problem with it..

IMO, Matchroom runs the best tournaments... their 2 tournaments coming up will be aired on ESPN Asia and their latest Mosconi Cup was aired on Sky Sports. All the players in the tournament are invited, and EACH ONE is guaranteed prize money even if they lose in the 1st round of the single elimination tournament, which is great for the players. I think its fantastic for the exposure of the sport and also for the players invited to play in their events.

So back to my original question and how the WPA recognizes Matchroom's World Pool Masters and World Cup of Pool?

 

[pro9dg]

Hear, hear, and a tap, tap, tap! :clapping::clapping::clapping:

The boxing analogy is a good one!

I agree with everything you have written, especially the last sentence. I am not a fan of CW or Dragon, but I cannot discount the fact that they collectively are doing something positive for pool.

If Matchroom can be given a pass by the WPA, then so too should Dragon.

Matchroom have almost single handedly kept the WPA solvent. For almost 20 years they have paid Sanction Fees on ALL of their events (albeit from the Player's Prize Money). But Imagine
World Professional Pool Championship 1999
World 9 Ball Championship 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003 in Cardiff
2004.2005 in Taiwan
2006, 2007 in Manila
THE Mosconi Cup, World Masters, World Pool League have all been running for many years. All carried World titles because Matchroom paid for the privilege.
I cannot be bothered to add it up but it cannot be far short of a Million Dollars.
Two years Luke Riches of Matchroom decided that they were not getting enough Bang for their Buck and pulled out of the WPA. But an impassioned plea from WPA President to Barry Hearn had that decision overturned. Otherwise the WPA would probably be non existent today

So that probably answers angypangy's question - Matchroom are just too powerful to take any s**t

 

[JAM]

Matchroom have almost single handedly kept the WPA solvent. For almost 20 years they have paid Sanction Fees on ALL of their events (albeit from the Player's Prize Money). But Imagine
World Professional Pool Championship 1999
World 9 Ball Championship 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003 in Cardiff
2004.2005 in Taiwan
2006, 2007 in Manila
THE Mosconi Cup, World Masters, World Pool League have all been running for many years. All carried World titles because Matchroom paid for the privilege.
I cannot be bothered to add it up but it cannot be far short of a Million Dollars.
Two years Luke Riches of Matchroom decided that they were not getting enough Bang for their Buck and pulled out of the WPA. But an impassioned plea from WPA President to Barry Hearn had that decision overturned. Otherwise the WPA would probably be non existent today

Holy Pool Balls! :shocked2::shocked2::shocked2:

I never knew that. Well, this changes the whole picture for me.

Hip, hip, hooray for Matchroom Sports. :clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:

I remember when Kevin Trudeau declined to pay the so-called "sanctioning fee" to the WPA, which was not received well by some entities.

I wish the WPA would explain to the pool public what benefit these sanction fees have in the long run. If it is for the sole privilege to be called a "world" tournament, I'm not so sure it's worth the cheesenips.

That said, when is the next time pocket billiards will be reviewed by the Olympic Committee? Does anybody know? Is it 2032? I've lost track.

 

[Mark Griffin]

14.1

They pull players out of the stands?!

Lou Figueroa

Hi lou.
I know of a person who was there as a spectator and was invited to play (which he did) - and I believe there wer a few others.

That would have been 2-3 years ago.

That really is ok for a tournament if circumstances cause an opening, but for a world tournament- it should not be appropriate because for a true world event, players must qualify.

Mark griffin

 

[Tom In Cincy]

$75,000 payout.

It's a Straight Pool tournament for Straight pool players from all over the world.

The wording, IMO, isn't as important as the fact that there is a 14.1 tournment with a $75,000 payout. These tournaments need to be supported to continue into the future.

IMO, Dragon Promotions needs a better promotion representative, IMO, that's all.

As long as DP can continue to present this tournament and pay the winners ontime, it should have the support of the fans and pool industry.

When this tournament gains in popularity and money, it will be the consumate 14.1 World Championship and be recognized as such.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Can I hold a World Bank Pool Championship with $5000 added because no one else is doing one? According to you I can. Whether you accept it or not the WPA is the sanctioning body for World Championships. Personally I have heard so many players claim the title it doesnt mean anything to me anymore. Show me a US Open win and I'll pay attention. It's a known quantity which is what the WPA is attempting to create.

Whoever wins in NJ should be proud because they beat a solid field of players but it isn't a World Championship no matter what sideways logic you choose to dispute that fact with.

I was thinking the same thing. I'm toying with the idea of holding a tournament this year and calling it "The Olympics". Since there is no other bigger event this year calling itself the Olympics, I suppose the winner of my pool tournament should go down in the record books as an Olympic Champion.

Regardless, this is the biggest straight pool tournament of the year and I love straight pool so as far as I'm concerned the winner will be the "Champion Straight Pool Player of 2011". I'm not sure why some people are hung up on it HAVING to have the title of World Championship. I'm OK with it just being THE major straight pool tournament of the year.

I agree that CW can get a little crazy in his marketing hype and all, but the point about Matchroom throwing the word "World" around on its events is also well taken. What is the distinction between "World 14.1 Tournament" and "World Pool Masters"?

In regard to the WPA, I used to feel they were just some thug protection racket but thanks in part to the explanations in this thread I understand their role better. It's beginning to sound to me like the sanctioning money they take from the events they sanction is not big money but rather a few thousand or so, which probably does not cover much more than WPA expenses related to the events plus a little left over for overhead. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong about this.

How exactly is the amount of the WPA fee calculated, and how would that apply to this event? IOW, if this event met the minimum added money criteria for sanctioning ($75K) how much would the fee to the WPA be?

I agree with what Tom just said. Perhaps a reasonable solution would be for the WPA to recognize this event by simply NOT offering a competing tournament in the near term and giving this tournament the opportunity to grow into being able to qualify for a WC moniker. But that would mean that if someone is willing to step up with say $500K to get a 14.1 WC, the WPA would have to say no. I wonder how the players would feel about a tournament like that not happening because the WPA decided to protect CW.

Complicated issue with good discussion. Nice thread.

 

[Bigtruck]

Sanctioning is required when an event will include players from other intercontinental memberships that make up a minimum of eight players, or one-eight of the field, and has an added prize fund on offer in excess of USD 30,000.

For Ranking Events the minimum added prize money is USD 75,000.

 

[pro9dg]

Jerry explained this already but I will reiterate for you.

There is no longer a Sanction Fee for the existing World Championship tournaments ithat fall under the WPA umbrella. This has been replaced by the introduction of an Entry Fee, I am not able to categorically say anything about the World 9 Ball and World 10 Ball but I believe it is $250 and the World 8 Ball was $200.

This year there were 112 runners in this event which should come out at $22400 (although there were some wildcards) it still worked out at over twenty grand.
The previous 5% sanctioning fee would have only generated around half that figure.

So the figure of $75k has no relevance but a 96 player field would cost over $19,000.

But I am sure that everything is negotiable.

 

[gromulan]

For my money it's stupid for pool to even have a world championship. I said years ago that it would be far better to have a Grand Slam scenario, and structure the year around four large tournaments promoted in different regions by different bodies, along the lines of tennis and golf. Having multiple governing bodies and independent events all competing to have their own 'World Championship' where they either try to out do each other, or worse try and ruin each others' events' credibility or whatever benefits no one. In the Grand Slam structure the promoters and governing bodies can all make their events as big as they want, and it only serves to benefit the game, and of course the players.