Dragon World 14.1 Tournament, is still the World 14.1 Championships

If you dont blame the current american players for the state of pool, you can blame the past, the ones that got caught. Don't blame anyone before you blame the players.

There are many who agree with you. Truthfully, I'm not sure where to cast blame. At one time, Camel cigarettes and Budweiser were strong pool sponsors, but poorly organized pool organizations had a hand in having those sponsors pull back.

Pool's lack of success as a sport in the United States is a multi-faceted problem.

Surely, you remember Lou "Machine Gun" Butera. Well, he realized that competing in pool professionally in tournaments was like a dead fish in the water, so he figured out how to capitalize on his pool talents and made pool work for him.

Here's what Machine Gun Lou said about the state of pool in America when he was in his prime: You've got five companies doing over $10 million a year in this game. Yet, the amount they spend on the promotion of the game is peanuts, ridiculous. Now, if those companies can't put a quarter of a million of that into the promotion of the game, something is very wrong. There should be a Brunswick Open, an Ebonite Open, a Fisher Open, a National Open, just to name a few...all the big manufacturers should be promoting the game through tournaments.

This statement was made over 30 years ago. Players were struggling then, too. Those who were successful took their show on the road like Lou, Steve Mizerak, Willie Mosconi, and Minnesota Fats. I don't think any of them got rich from competing in pool tournaments.

Pool is a tough sell in America. We have so many other competing forces, to include the recent popularity of poker. There's golf, MLB, NBA, NFL, tennis. Heck, even the hot dog eating contests get more press in the media than pool today.

Everybody has their own thoughts on why pool continues to have one tire in the sand. I personally believe it has nothing to do with the players themselves, but rather it is a lack of organization. It must start with the BCA, and they've washed their hands of professional pool, it would seem.

Johnny Archer, et al., are trying to get an organization established with the ABP. This is a step in the right direction, but their strength is weak at this time and lacks structure. Hopefully, they can get it together and create a legitimate tour, so that players can be ranked. The current ranking system in the United States is a combination of various tournaments that are noteworthy and lucrative, but any shortstop, amateur, social shooter, and ball banger can sign up and compete in them. They are not restricted to members of any professional organization -- at least not yet. :smile:
 
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Cleary,

If you were worried about 'showing someone up' - I don't think that was a valid reason for not agreeing to play.

I think your opinion of your pool playing skills now rivals 'Big Tony's' opinions.

You guys from New York are 'sumpton else'!!!

Markg

Itwasss a joke Sir Grifff. I cannot play dead... but there are others in that tournament that are in the same boat. I don't blame those players for jumping in but I wish the field was full of nothing but killers. Like Shane... would love to see him play in that event. So many top players would do very well in that event even if they don't play much, if any straight pool.
 
Hi lou.
I know of a person who was there as a spectator and was invited to play (which he did) - and I believe there wer a few others.

That would have been 2-3 years ago.

That really is ok for a tournament if circumstances cause an opening, but for a world tournament- it should not be appropriate because for a true world event, players must qualify.

Mark griffin

Mark,

I think the Dragon 14.1 "world" event has done this for most (all?) of the years they held it. I've gone every year, so this is my recollection. Then again, I can forget where I parked, so take it with a grain of salt.

Most of the "filler" players are locals that pay the entry and don't have to qualify. None of the players are champions or "pros". Some of the "filler" players that enter are decent amateur level players. Most, unfortunately, are not what I would call "solid players".

I watched a match, this year, between two of these filler players. It was a horrendous, barely watch-able comedy of misses and errors. The ironic, yet funny part of the match (I needed to find something amusing) was that both players seemed to make a frown or grimace after each miss (which happened A LOT). It was as if they were trying to imply that they make those shots all the time and usually play 5 balls better. :rolleyes: The ultimate irony is that one of the guys sent out a mass email, prior to the event, puffing about the strength of the field, saying stuff like "and the second tier is pretty strong too, with Ray Martin, XXX player, HIS NAME, etc. Trust me, he has no place including his name with those second tier players.

So, the point I'm making is that as a fan, this is not entertaining to watch. This is supposed to be a "world" championship event, not a pro-am. I swear, I wanted to kick a puppy after watching some of the match I spoke of. If a recreational player like myself, sitting in the stands, feels that I could give both of those players in front of me a 25 point spot, going to 100, well....


Eric >just sayin
 
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If Dragon Promotions wants to crown true world champions then they need to create their own competing organization and be completely separate from the BCA/WPA. Put out their own rule books, their own hall of fame, their own records books. In the end history will decide who gets honored as true world champions and who does not.

The media should then correctly identify the winners as WPA World Champions, or DP World Champions. In the absence of cooperation their should at least be distinction. Blurring the lines does no good and only invites confusion. The winner of the ongoing 14.1 event might feel like a world champion and some people might call him a world champion but officially he won't be recorded as a world champion.


This is a very good point. If boxing can have more than one recognized organization then why cant pool. Dragon promotions could start sanctioning there own "World Championships" and get with the BCA and the rest of the governing bodies of the other countries and ask them for there "blessing". Then they can set whatever rules they want and compete with the WPA. This can only be a positive for the players and fans because it will bring competition between Dragon and the WPA and they would have to step up their game with added prize money and other benefits to get the players to play in their "World Championship".

This doesnt have to be with just the 14.1 Championships but with 8,9, and 10 ball as well. Lets throw in one pocket and banks in there as well. Why not, as long as the BCA and other countries governing bodies say yes. I cant see anything negative coming from this, only positive.
 
is the insidepool.tv site down? cant acces the site and subsequently not the stream either.... thx for any help
 
Mark,

I think the Dragon 14.1 "world" event has done this for most (all?) of the years they held it. I've gone every year, so this is my recollection. Then again, I can forget where I parked, so take it with a grain of salt.

Most of the "filler" players are locals that pay the entry and don't have to qualify. None of the players are champions or "pros". Some of the "filler" players that enter are decent amateur level players. Most, unfortunately, are not what I would call "solid players".

I watched a match, this year, between two of these filler players. It was a horrendous, barely watch-able comedy of misses and errors. The ironic, yet funny part of the match (I needed to find something amusing) was that both players seemed to make a frown or grimace after each miss (which happened A LOT). It was as if they were trying to imply that they make those shots all the time and usually play 5 balls better. :rolleyes: The ultimate irony is that one of the guys sent out a mass email, prior to the event, puffing about the strength of the field, saying stuff like "and the second tier is pretty strong too, with Ray Martin, XXX player, HIS NAME, etc. Trust me, he has no place including his name with those second tier players.

So, the point I'm making is that as a fan, this is not entertaining to watch. This is supposed to be a "world" championship event, not a pro-am. I swear, I wanted to kick a puppy after watching some of the match I spoke of. If a recreational player like myself, sitting in the stands, feels that I could give both of those players in front of me a 25 point spot, going to 100, well....


Eric >just sayin

Who says money doesn't talk? For a $500 entry fee, these lower-tiered players can buy their way into a world championship event and rub shoulders with some of the best players in the game. :rolleyes:

Everyone knows that these filler players aren't going to get very far in the tournament. At least they help fill out the 64-player field and contribute about $8000 to the prize fund. If you're a spectator watching the tournament, hold your nose, cover your eyes and look the other way if necessary. ;)

Having said that, I agree with the other posters that DP's calling this a "World Tournament (championship)" with lower-tiered players buying their way into the tournament, is pushing the limits of credibility.
 
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...So, the point I'm making is that as a fan, this is not entertaining to watch. This is supposed to be a "world" championship event, not a pro-am....

After reading your on-site report, I understand much better the problems that can occur by labeling this a "world" tournament.

In fact, if D players are being invited just for the sole purpose of filling the chart, you are right that it should be labeled a "Pro-Am," much like the one at Super Billiards Expo each year.

Thanks for the trip report, Eric! :smile:
 
There are many who agree with you. Truthfully, I'm not sure where to cast blame. At one time, Camel cigarettes and Budweiser were strong pool sponsors, but poorly organized pool organizations had a hand in having those sponsors pull back.

There's also the factor of Congress passing laws disallowing tobacco and alcohol companies from sponsoring pro events.

Pool's lack of success as a sport in the United States is a multi-faceted problem.

Surely, you remember Lou "Machine Gun" Butera. Well, he realized that competing in pool professionally in tournaments was like a dead fish in the water, so he figured out how to capitalize on his pool talents and made pool work for him.

Here's what Machine Gun Lou said about the state of pool in America when he was in his prime: You've got five companies doing over $10 million a year in this game. Yet, the amount they spend on the promotion of the game is peanuts, ridiculous. Now, if those companies can't put a quarter of a million of that into the promotion of the game, something is very wrong. There should be a Brunswick Open, an Ebonite Open, a Fisher Open, a National Open, just to name a few...all the big manufacturers should be promoting the game through tournaments.

This statement was made over 30 years ago. Players were struggling then, too. Those who were successful took their show on the road like Lou, Steve Mizerak, Willie Mosconi, and Minnesota Fats. I don't think any of them got rich from competing in pool tournaments.

Here's something else Lou said..."I'm a world champion! That, and a quarter, will buy me a cup of coffee!"

Jack White became wealthy from performing exhibitions for 40+ years...and the pro players resented it...because he chose not to be "in the club"! If you want to make a viable living playing pool, in this country, the exhibition circuit is an available path...and it has nothing to do with the BCA or any other organization. All it really takes is a little bit of skill, some manners, a reasonable command of the english language, a little bit of 'fashion sense' (think dress for success), and perhaps the most important ingredient...humility.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
Jack White became wealthy from performing exhibitions for 40+ years...and the pro players resented it...because he chose not to be "in the club"! If you want to make a viable living playing pool, in this country, the exhibition circuit is an available path...and it has nothing to do with the BCA or any other organization. All it really takes is a little bit of skill, some manners, a reasonable command of the english language, a little but of 'fashion sense' (think dress for success), and perhaps the most important ingredient...humility.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Can you show me that law from Congress? I'm curious about the wording, especially what legislators consider "pro." I would very much like to read it. Thanks in advance for your kind efforts! :smile:

Everybody has their own bailiwick when it comes to pool. Not everybody has a fashion sense, and not everybody has a gift of gab. Not everybody can teach pool, and not everybody can learn. One thing for sure, though, everybody who does love pool is hoping for that change agent to come to the fore. I'm keeping my fingers crossed I get to experience it in my lifetime! :cool:
 
JAM...No I can't quote the law (and it may have been amateur and pro), but I'm sure you could research it in the Congressional Record, being as you live in DC. While it may not work for all, imo there is certainly a large enough "entertainment market" right here in the USA, that could keep 100 people actively engaged, and making a six-figure income...something that escapes all but the most elite American players. The problem is too many pro players are content to just "sit on their butts" and wait for that 'change agent'! I think most would just call that "lazy"...

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Can you show me that law from Congress? I'm curious about the wording, especially what legislators consider "pro." I would very much like to read it. Thanks in advance for your kind efforts! :smile:

Everybody has their own bailiwick when it comes to pool. Not everybody has a fashion sense, and not everybody has a gift of gab. Not everybody can teach pool, and not everybody can learn. One thing for sure, though, everybody who does love pool is hoping for that change agent to come to the fore. I'm keeping my fingers crossed I get to experience it in my lifetime! :cool:
 
JAM...No I can't quote the law (and it may have been amateur and pro), but I'm sure you could research it in the Congressional Record, being as you live in DC. While it may not work for all, imo there is certainly a large enough "entertainment market" right here in the USA, that could keep 100 people actively engaged, and making a six-figure income...something that escapes all but the most elite American players. The problem is too many pro players are content to just "sit on their butts" and wait for that 'change agent'! I think most would just call that "lazy"...

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I understand your thoughts, Scott, but there really are a few pro players out there who are indeed making a difference in their own individual ways, whether it is promoting pool by giving exhibitions, lessons, participating in charity events, and some are even running regional tours. Not everybody can go on the road and give lessons like you, and you do serve a niche, but as I said in my other post, everybody has their own bailiwick. It is sad to think that pool players are viewed as "lazy" when I know many who actually do try to change pool's image for the better. :cool:

You are right in that I do live in D.C., but without an H.R. number or a Senate bill number, it's hard to find that law you're talking about, but I really would be interested in reading it. Next time I'm visiting the Russell or Dirksen Buildings, I will try to see if I can find out more information on site as to how to access that law and its wording. I have a few contacts there that may be able to point me in the right direction.
 
Scott and JAM,

I think the law you are referencing is for the Cigarrett Smoking and Liquor television commercials for Sporting events created in the 80s.

The law forbid TV commercials and, IIRC (this has beeen a problem lately LOL), it was quickly expanded to all commercial broadcast TV.

As far as being sponsers, Alchol and Tobaco still add money to professional events. Just no TV commercials... oh... beer made the exception list and I notice more and more Licquor ads creeping back into the TV ads later at night.

Oh Well,


JAM...No I can't quote the law Scott Lee
 
There are many who agree with you. Truthfully, I'm not sure where to cast blame. At one time, Camel cigarettes and Budweiser were strong pool sponsors, but poorly organized pool organizations had a hand in having those sponsors pull back.

Pool's lack of success as a sport in the United States is a multi-faceted problem.

Surely, you remember Lou "Machine Gun" Butera. Well, he realized that competing in pool professionally in tournaments was like a dead fish in the water, so he figured out how to capitalize on his pool talents and made pool work for him.

Here's what Machine Gun Lou said about the state of pool in America when he was in his prime: You've got five companies doing over $10 million a year in this game. Yet, the amount they spend on the promotion of the game is peanuts, ridiculous. Now, if those companies can't put a quarter of a million of that into the promotion of the game, something is very wrong. There should be a Brunswick Open, an Ebonite Open, a Fisher Open, a National Open, just to name a few...all the big manufacturers should be promoting the game through tournaments.

This statement was made over 30 years ago. Players were struggling then, too. Those who were successful took their show on the road like Lou, Steve Mizerak, Willie Mosconi, and Minnesota Fats. I don't think any of them got rich from competing in pool tournaments.

Pool is a tough sell in America. We have so many other competing forces, to include the recent popularity of poker. There's golf, MLB, NBA, NFL, tennis. Heck, even the hot dog eating contests get more press in the media than pool today.

Everybody has their own thoughts on why pool continues to have one tire in the sand. I personally believe it has nothing to do with the players themselves, but rather it is a lack of organization. It must start with the BCA, and they've washed their hands of professional pool, it would seem.

Johnny Archer, et al., are trying to get an organization established with the ABP. This is a step in the right direction, but their strength is weak at this time and lacks structure. Hopefully, they can get it together and create a legitimate tour, so that players can be ranked. The current ranking system in the United States is a combination of various tournaments that are noteworthy and lucrative, but any shortstop, amateur, social shooter, and ball banger can sign up and compete in them. They are not restricted to members of any professional organization -- at least not yet. :smile:

Well the problem with statements about who should be doing what with someone else's money is that it's not THEIR own money they are spending.

Lou Butera doesn't know the financials of the companies he speaks about and he evidently doesn't understand that income does not equal profit. Anything spent on sponsoring, promoting, advertising etc...is an expense that doesn't immediately translate into more sales.

Unlike other sports the reach of any particular action in the billiard industry is dismal. If a company spends $100,000 on a tournament then so what? The increase in sales is so slight that it's not worth measuring. Tournaments do nothing to raise public awareness of pool as something they should be doing over any other activities.

Sponsoring is great for the players and tournaments are great for the players but they suck for the companies who pay for them.

I could give you a bunch of examples where sponsoring dollars were flat wasted. The only time that sponsoring events makes sense is when the brands can get on TV and run a lot. And even then measuring the return on investment is more akin to conjouring then to accounting.

In my opinion it's the BCA that has dropped the ball. Were it me I would have paid for a traveling road show promoting pool across the land. I would have made sure that every community center in the land had tables and equipment in good working order with teachers to introduce the kids to the game. I would have spent a lot promoting the game to corporations as a great winter activity for in-house corporate leagues. That's what I would have spent the budget on.

Do stuff like that and the money to put on tournaments would flow in. In any sport the money comes from people being consumers, paying time, league dues, buying equipment, etc.... Mass makes Class. More people playing equals more fans - more fans equals more money spent - more money spent equals more to promote with.

There should be a Brunswick Open, and a Milliken Open, and a Fury Open, etc... but first there ought to be a reason for those brands to want to have their name on the marquee.
 
If Mike Davis wins, do you think he is going to think he is now a World Champion?

Mike
 

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If Mike Davis wins, do you think he is going to think he is now a World Champion?

Mike

Did Buster Douglas? Why not?
When John Wayne won the award for Best Actor in 1969 for True Grit do you think he was the Best?
Whats your point?
Man people work hard for success. Mike Davis is just as deserving as any other pro of a world title.
Its history that determines what will stand. Not you or I?
 
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