A "Scratch" Pool Player

Aaron_S

Aaron_S

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What is the equivalent of a scratch golfer in pool? I have heard many times someone say "He's a scratch golfer" or "I play scratch golf", and I always wondered how that would translate to pool. I know it's far more precise in golf, since a true scratch golfer will be tracking his or her stats based on course ratings, slope etc., and will therefore know that they are a zero handicap, but what range would a "scratch" pool player fall into?

Aaron
 
IMO, a scratch golfer shoots par on a good/well maintained golf course. Has a zero handicap. Can shoot below par on any given day.

IMO, a pool player that is rated as a "Pro" level in skill would be equivalent.

Semi-Pro or 'Short Stot" level player would be equivalent to a 3 or 4 handicap in Golf

'A' level players could be considered from a 5 to 10 level handicap.

"B+" would be somewhere between 11-18 handicap.

Just my opinion... I use to have a 15 handicap at one time in a past life
 
I would say

a scratch Poolplayer is one that can regularly beat the 9 ball ghost in a race to 9 games.
 
Tom In Cincy said:
IMO, a scratch golfer shoots par on a good/well maintained golf course. Has a zero handicap. Can shoot below par on any given day.

IMO, a pool player that is rated as a "Pro" level in skill would be equivalent.

Semi-Pro or 'Short Stot" level player would be equivalent to a 3 or 4 handicap in Golf

'A' level players could be considered from a 5 to 10 level handicap.

"B+" would be somewhere between 11-18 handicap.

Just my opinion... I use to have a 15 handicap at one time in a past life
Click to expand...

Very interesting! I guess I wasn't giving myself enough credit. I hung out in the 15-18 handicap range for a while, but considered myself a C or D golfer. I assumed people who were shooting around even par on my local course (73.4 rating, 134 slope) would be about in the B range, since I figured any touring pro would regularly shoot in the low 60's, high 50's on that course.

Aaron
 
Aaron_S said:
What is the equivalent of a scratch golfer in pool? I have heard many times someone say "He's a scratch golfer" or "I play scratch golf", and I always wondered how that would translate to pool. I know it's far more precise in golf, since a true scratch golfer will be tracking his or her stats based on course ratings, slope etc., and will therefore know that they are a zero handicap, but what range would a "scratch" pool player fall into?

Aaron
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Since 99% of people who say that are exaggerating or outright lying, I would guess it would be something in pool that people feel the need to lie about. Maybe "I gambled my way through college" or "We made a lot of money on the road."

:D

~rc
 
Tom In Cincy said:
IMO, a scratch golfer shoots par on a good/well maintained golf course. Has a zero handicap. Can shoot below par on any given day.

IMO, a pool player that is rated as a "Pro" level in skill would be equivalent.

Semi-Pro or 'Short Stot" level player would be equivalent to a 3 or 4 handicap in Golf

'A' level players could be considered from a 5 to 10 level handicap.

"B+" would be somewhere between 11-18 handicap.

Just my opinion... I use to have a 15 handicap at one time in a past life
Click to expand...

Tom

I think that's too high a scale. I was a scratch golfer for many years and a PGA Tour Pro, after 3 times playing the course I played every day, could give me 3 a side and pound me. Lanny Wadkins, who is far beyond his prime now, plays a pot game at his course as a +7. I'd estimate Tiger in his prime, playing the hardest courses in the world from the tips with chumped up roughs and shaved greens, to be a +10 or 12. So if Shane is a +10, that makes an A player scratch.

I know in the LA areas, there are probably 250 golfers that are scratch or better and far less true A quality pool players, but that's probably unfair comparison because so many more people choose to play golf seriously than pool.

I like both tests in this thread, seeing pool is harder to judge a standard with as your opponent makes such a difference. I like 100 balls in straight pool ( I might even lower that to 80) and regularly beating the ghost in 9 ball.

Thanks

Kevin
 
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A 'scratch' player won't normally qualifiy for a Pro event?
If that is so, then I totally agree with you.



kvinbrwr said:
Tom

I think that's too high a scale. I was a scratch golfer for many years and a PGA Tour Pro, after 3 times playing the course I played every day, could give me 3 a side and pound me. Lanny Wadkins, who is far beyond his prime now, plays a pot game at his course as a +7. I'd estimate Tiger in his prime, playing the hardest courses in the world from the tips with chumped up roughs and shaved greens, to be a +10 or 12. So if Shane is a +10, that makes an A player scratch.

I know in the LA areas, there are probably 250 golfers that are scratch or better and far less true A quality pool players, but that's probably unfair comparison because so many more people choose to play golf seriously than pool.

Thanks

Kevin
Click to expand...
 
Tough comparison.

Scratch golf is playing precisely to a courses intended design , shot for shot +/- the course difficulty (slope) rating. Could be even par, over or under. Generally speaking you might say 'ideal' play.

The catch is that pool has a ceiling wheras golf really does not.

A scratch golfer wouldn't last 5 minutes in pro level competiton as top level pros far exceed "scratch" and theres virtually no limit to the potential that one could exceed a perfectly played (as to course design) round of golf.

Pool being such a far simpler game doesn't have that same range of seperation. One player can be twice the level of another yet its very possible that both players could equally run out a number of the same racks. It typically takes a far greater amount of execution to seperate the levels of pool players. This is why so many other factors come into play with pool, a lesser player could very well beat a stronger player on any given day based on conditons of play (race/format) and various factors outside of the control of either player (luck,rolls,etc).

IMO.

That being said , a 'scratch' pool player would be one that is competent in every skill required to play the game , who never misses any shot that should never be missed or any run out that should be ran. He should be capable of playing 'ideal' pool, as it was meant to be played shot for shot.

It just a fuzzy comparison either way.
 
Tom In Cincy said:
A 'scratch' player won't normally qualifiy for a Pro event?
If that is so, then I totally agree with you.
Click to expand...


Oh yeah, not close. All Tour Pros with cards are at least 4 to 5 shots better than scratch. And, that "scratch" that amateurs are is determined by them playing the same course in "normal" conditions for at least 80% of their rounds.

Take a scratch amateur golfer. Give him 1 practice round at Augusta, then have him play that course with just the Friday set-up for the Masters. If the over/under is 76, take the over and bet all you have. Take that same guy and have him play with 30,000 people watching and boost that o/a up to 79. Sunday pins and trees? 80, and take the over.

Kevin
 
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A scratch golfer is a good thing. A scratch pool player is not. Term takes on a whole new meaning in pool.:D

Seriously though, I would place it like someone else said, beating the ghost.
 
In match play with pros involved, a scratch player would be a local that could beat you if you let up or were cocky enough to think he or she had no chance. Also, if your having a bad day and they are having a good day, you'll lose for sure.
 
Tom In Cincy said:
A 'scratch' player won't normally qualifiy for a Pro event?
If that is so, then I totally agree with you.
Click to expand...

I have a friend whose handicap has been as low as +6.5 (better than par). And he has failed numerous times to qualify for the PGA tour. He makes a living playing mini tours and local tourneys, but he just can't quite break through.

~rc
 
kvinbrwr said:
Oh yeah, not close. All Tour Pros with cards are at least 4 to 5 shots better than scratch. And, that "scratch" that amateurs are is determined by them playing the same course in "normal" conditions for at least 80% of their rounds.

Take a scratch amateur golfer. Give him 1 practice round at Augusta, then have him play that course with just the Friday set-up for the Masters. If the over/under is 76, take the over and bet all you have. Take that same guy and have him play with 30,000 people watching and boost that o/a up to 79. Sunday pins and trees? 80, and take the over.

Kevin
Click to expand...

That is exactly true. I had the opportunity once to play a course the day after a major. They left the pins in Sunday positions and the grandstands were still there. It was awesome! The rough was kept the same and the tee boxes were the same. I was a 7 handicap at the time and barely broke 100. A guy that was playing with me regularly plays that course and was playing to a 3 or 4 and he scored worse than I did.

~rc
 
Snapshot9 said:
a scratch Poolplayer is one that can regularly beat the 9 ball ghost in a race to 9 games.
Click to expand...

I agree with this with the caveat on a table with tight (4.25") pockets. A pool player like that might be able to cash at regional tournaments but by no means would be a world beater.

A scratch golfer is probably the equivalent of an A - player in pool depending on the courses they play regularly. When I was golfing a lot my lowest handicap was a 7, and I would put my game at a "C+ to B-" . Now you might think a 7 handicap is pretty good, but not when you're playing an overrated course, one course, with few hazards. A 7 handicap from a tough course could spot me 3 strokes a side. I was playing more like a 10.

Also, a scratch golfer who acquired the majority of their handicap on one course has little chance of shooting scratch on a variety of courses. They have no chance of making the pro tour and probably not even cashing on the state mini tours with 10 shots at it in a full season.

In my opinion, a club pro who regularly shoots 2 or 3 or 4 under par on their home course would have little chance of making a cut on the PGA Tour except on their own course. By the time they get to the 7000 yard plus 150 slope PGA courses, with grown out rough, tucked pins, and shaved greens, they would be fortunate to break 75.

I caddied for a golf pro (and sponsored him) who had a scratch handicap on the California Golden State Tour and he was lower third to middle of the field on any event, no matter which course, even shooting even par which he did a few times - and he was a good golfer.

Chris
 
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I'd say a scratch pool player would be one who is willing to bet they can beat the 9 ball ghost on a tough, but not tricked out, Diamond.

There a million guys who have scratch or near scratch handicaps at golf that would get absolutely destroyed by a real PGA tour player. People don't realize just how good they are. That's why they talk about 10 handicaps struggling to break 100 on a US OPEN golf course.

There is a kid who was a two time Div II college player of the year, shot a 62 in a tourney at a local course last year, and could only make one cut out of five on the Canadian tour. Which is below the Nationwide tour, which is obviously well below the PGA tour in overall quality.

If pool was at the same level as golf, had college programs, and paid well, there would be 1000 guys who could run over 200 balls at 14.1. Mosconi's record would have been beaten decades ago...a 19 year old kid shot a 58 on the Asian tour last year, and many others have shot right around 60.
 
I've tried to use this same analogy to golf, since more people play golf than pool, especially when explaining to non-pool players who see me play and ask why I'm not "on the tour". I usually laugh, then explain that I would equate people at my skill level (A/B depending on how you rank things) to being on my good days a scratch or near-scratch golfer - good, maybe better than most, but not great.

When I think of the pool world compared to golf:

The top pros are like the top golfers - +5, +6, etc. handicaps
The lower ranked pros are like the lower ranked pros on the golf tour, capable of performing at a high level for short periods of time but just not quite there yet day to day and making a modest living
The shortstops, such as the top talent in any given city, would equate to a +1, +2, +3 type golfer, typical of say the mini-tours
The A players would be scratch or near scratch handicaps
The B players would be maybe 3 - 9 handicaps
And then down from there

Previous comparisons - beating 9-ball ghost in a race to 9 regularly, running 100 in straight pool - are also pretty accurate I think.

Scott
 
After reading what everyone else said I guess I'm way off. I would have said a scratch player would be the equivalent of a shortstop in pool.
 
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