How Do the Pros Aim

[Bob Callahan]

No matter what aiming system people use, they all still play by feel. No aiming system can completely take in to account all the variables for making most shots.

Aiming systems cut down on learning time compared to just shooting a lot of pool (heuristic learning).

The most important thing about aiming systems is being able to forget them--they become natural.

When pros tell you how they aim, they are just trying to explain something they do intuitively. After awhile, there is no substitute for playing a lot of pool.

Our minds are smarter than our science.

I mentioned in another thread a while back, that I was watching a good player and heard him mutter to himself something like "My brain says this won't go, my heart says it will." He shot and made it. There was some part of his mind that had worked it out....he just needed to trust that part. Too many times I've lined up a shot, then made an adjustment--and missed.

 

[Scott Lee]

Mitchxout...IMO, you have it backwards. A stun shot usually requires more cue speed, to cause the CB to skid all the way to the OB (depends on the distance between the CB & OB), and will lessen the effects of CIT. If you're talking about vertical axis shots, then a CB that is skidding (stun shot) vs. a CB that is skidding with backspin still on it at contact with the OB (the draw you described), have the same aim point...in other words, draw on the CB (by itself) does not cause a 'thicker' hit on the OB. CIT happens most often with a fuller hit, when the shot is hit slowly, when the OB's and/or cloth are dirty, or when humidity is high. CIT is cancelled out with either a higher speed stroke, or adding outside spin to the CB.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I meant cut shots hit with a sliding cue ball (stun) vs draw have a different point of aim. Draw is a thicker hit (less CIT) vs stun (more CIT). Very large or small angles don't apply. About a 1/2 hit creates the most CIT and the most difference in aim between stun and draw. Please add to or correct me if I'm wrong or not complete.

 

[Scott Lee]

Mike...Estimating squirt is perceptual to the individual, and certainly changes from shot to shot, based on speed, distance, and amount of spin. Wherever the contact point on the OB is, that corresponds to pocketing the ball where you want to, doesn't change. How you get the CB to that contact point doesn't really matter. Personally I do it by adjusting my perceived contact point on the OB, and then add my sidespin. Certainly there are many ways to accomplish this goal.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott,

I bolded the sentence above to ask a question. To compensate for inside spin, a player can hit an object ball fuller. Have you ever tried or do you aim the object ball slightly away from the pocket for inside spin?

For instance, you are cutting a ball to the left and you are using left (inside) spin. You can aim the object ball to the right of the pocket instead of aiming for a thicker hit with the cue ball.

It's just another option and a different way of looking at a shot. I've found I can stroke the ball better without aiming for a specific contact point on these shots and it is easier to estimate the squirt.

Best,
Mike

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Mitchxout...IMO, you have it backwards. A stun shot usually requires more cue speed, to cause the CB to skid all the way to the OB (depends on the distance between the CB & OB), and will lessen the effects of CIT.

I think the main difference between the two is the presence or absence of forward rotation on the CB - forward rotation "uses up" ball/ball friction so it's not fully available for CIT. Speed can make a difference but isn't a necessary factor because you can hit a stun shot at various speeds.

...a CB that is skidding (stun shot) vs. a CB that is skidding with backspin still on it at contact with the OB (the draw you described), have the same aim point...in other words, draw on the CB (by itself) does not cause a 'thicker' hit on the OB.

Draw, like follow, "uses up" ball/ball friction so it's not fully available for CIT - so you do have to hit slightly fuller with draw in order to get the same cut angle.

CIT happens most often

I'd say "most effectively" - it happens to one degree or another almost all the time.

...with a fuller hit,

With no sidespin you get the most CIT with about a half-ball hit - CIT decreases with a hit that's fuller or thinner than half-ball.

...when the shot is hit slowly, when the OB's and/or cloth are dirty, or when humidity is high.

Yes, these all increase CIT.

CIT is cancelled out with either a higher speed stroke, or adding outside spin to the CB.

It's reduced by these but not necessarily cancelled out. And, oddly enough, adding outside spin that's less than perfect "gearing" spin can actually increase CIT.

Just some tweaks,

pj
chgo

 

[dr_dave]

I think the main difference between the two is the presence or absence of forward rotation on the CB - forward rotation "uses up" ball/ball friction so it's not fully available for CIT. Speed can make a difference but isn't a necessary factor because you can hit a stun shot at various speeds.


Draw, like follow, "uses up" ball/ball friction so it's not fully available for CIT - so you do have to hit slightly fuller with draw in order to get the same cut angle.


I'd say "most effectively" - it happens to one degree or another almost all the time.


With no sidespin you get the most CIT with about a half-ball hit - CIT decreases with a hit that's fuller or thinner than half-ball.


Yes, these all increase CIT.


It's reduced by these but not necessarily cancelled out. And, oddly enough, adding outside spin that's less than perfect "gearing" spin can actually increase CIT.

Just some tweaks,

pj
chgo

If people are curious or want to learn more about throw effects, I have a complete list, with demonstrations and links to additional resources, here (see items 15-35 in the list after the videos):

throw effects​

Enjoy,
Dave

 

[Pete]

If people are curious or want to learn more about throw effects, I have a complete list, with demonstrations and links to additional resources, here (see items 15-35 in the list after the videos):

throw effects​

Enjoy,
Dave

Dr. Dave

John Schmidt mentioned that throw only goes back 3 balls. Not sure what that rule is.

Any idea?

Pete

 

[Scott Lee]

I think the main difference between the two is the presence or absence of forward rotation on the CB - forward rotation "uses up" ball/ball friction so it's not fully available for CIT. Speed can make a difference but isn't a necessary factor because you can hit a stun shot at various speeds.

Pat...Neither a stun shot, nor a draw shot (where the CB still has backspin at contact with the OB) have any forward rotation.

Draw, like follow, "uses up" ball/ball friction so it's not fully available for CIT - so you do have to hit slightly fuller with draw in order to get the same cut angle.

I have to disagree with you here. Shooting with draw does not require a fuller hit on the OB.

I'd say "most effectively" - it happens to one degree or another almost all the time.

On very thin hits, and high speed shots there is no significant CIT. Of course you'd have to have high speed video to prove either statement.

Just some tweaks,

pj
chgo

...and just some corrections. Perhaps Bob Jewett will chime in on these posts.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[Tennesseejoe]

Mike...Estimating squirt is perceptual to the individual, and certainly changes from shot to shot, based on speed, distance, and amount of spin. Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scot, does squirt really change based on speed? I thought that it might but have not seen data on this. Just asking---thanks for all your good responses.

 

[C.Milian]

Did you know that sometimes I don't understand what your talking about
alot of the times and then sometimes again? Can I help you Sir? What do you mean,100%hit know balls like that? I just don't understand your questions very good most of them times,that's all.Thank you,John B.

Champion=.......(I think you know what this means)

Attitude=(there is a thing called marriam webster)

I've asked simple fair questions.

Neil:

Believe what you what. It's just my opinion of what I see from watching some videos of his stroke. I said nothing negative about him. It was he that took offense to a compliment.

Look at his response neil....what do you make of a champion from that line? Is Brumback truly capable of that?

 

[John Brumback]

Champion=.......(I think you know what this means)

Attitude=(there is a thing called marriam webster)

I've asked simple fair questions.

Neil:

Believe what you what. It's just my opinion of what I see from watching some videos of his stroke. I said nothing negative about him. It was he that took offense to a compliment.

Look at his response neil....what do you make of a champion from that line? Is Brumback truly capable of that?

Yeah,I did that cause that's about how good I understand your questions.
I still have no clue what you are just now talking about.When did you compliment me? If I missed It,I'm sorry I just didn't catch It.But I'm a little slow sometimes.John B.

 

[Scott Lee]

Tennesseejoe...That depends on several variables, two important ones being the distance between the CB & OB, and how extreme the sidespin is. If you take a spot shot on a 9' table as a reference shot, and you have just a little sidespin on the CB, and shoot a slow speed stroke, you may not have to adjust your aim much at all. Take the same shot, aim with maximum sidespin, and shoot high speed, you may have to adjust your aim on the OB by a 1/2 ball, even a full ball, depending on how much your stick deflects. LD shafts reduce the amount of stick deflection and CB squirt some, but there will always be some guesswork involved any time you shoot with sidespin.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scot, does squirt really change based on speed? I thought that it might but have not seen data on this. Just asking---thanks for all your good responses.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Me:
I think the main difference between the two is the presence or absence of forward rotation on the CB - forward rotation "uses up" ball/ball friction so it's not fully available for CIT. Speed can make a difference but isn't a necessary factor because you can hit a stun shot at various speeds.

Scott:
Pat...Neither a stun shot, nor a draw shot (where the CB still has backspin at contact with the OB) have any forward rotation.

LOL. Got me there - I didn't read carefully enough. However, draw and follow have the same effect on CIT.

Me:
Draw, like follow, "uses up" ball/ball friction so it's not fully available for CIT - so you do have to hit slightly fuller with draw in order to get the same cut angle.

Scott:
I have to disagree with you here. Shooting with draw does not require a fuller hit on the OB.

I have to disagree with you too . Vertical rotation reduces CIT compared with stun, and it doesn't matter whether the vertical rotation is forward (follow) or backwards (draw).

Me:
I'd say "most effectively" - it happens to one degree or another almost all the time.

Scott:
On very thin hits, and high speed shots there is no significant CIT. Of course you'd have to have high speed video to prove either statement.

I agree with this.

Perhaps Bob Jewett will chime in on these posts.

Hope so...

pj
chgo

 

[dr_dave]

Dr. Dave

John Schmidt mentioned that throw only goes back 3 balls. Not sure what that rule is.

Any idea?

Pete

Maybe he was referring to frozen combinations. You can get throw and spin transfer effects on the 2nd ball of a frozen combination; but with 3 frozen balls, there's not much you can do to change the direction of the third ball if the balls are all in a straight line to begin with. If they are off line, you can change the direction of the 3rd ball a little with speed, but only for cut angles on the 3rd ball greater than about 20 degrees.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

does squirt really change based on speed?

Squirt does not change with speed, but swerve does. For more information and video demonstrations, see:

squirt speed effects
squirt and swerve effects (see items 1-14 in the list after the videos)
squerve (net effect of squirt and swerve)​

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Vertical rotation reduces CIT compared with stun, and it doesn't matter whether the vertical rotation is forward (follow) or backwards (draw).

That is correct. For more information, including illustrated instructional articles on this topic, see:

the effects of draw and follow on throw​

Regards,
Dave

 

[book collector]

Mike...Estimating squirt is perceptual to the individual, and certainly changes from shot to shot, based on speed, distance, and amount of spin. Wherever the contact point on the OB is, that corresponds to pocketing the ball where you want to, doesn't change. How you get the CB to that contact point doesn't really matter. Personally I do it by adjusting my perceived contact point on the OB, and then add my sidespin. Certainly there are many ways to accomplish this goal.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

So if you do a grand masse' into that object point , there is no different outcome than if you use 1/2 tip of running english? I don't mean balls hanging in the pocket , balls that only have a small margin of hit error.

 

[TheThaiger]

Good Lord! How could he have been so crude as to use the phrase "too sensitive"? Where will it all end?

Thaiger, you must keep in mind that there are two sets of posting rules on AzB - one for talking to us mere mortals and another for talking to "celebrity posters". The main difference is that you're not allowed to address a "celebrity poster" without first locking your lips firmly to his ass.

pj
chgo

Thanks for that. I must say I'm VERY surprised at Mr Wilson's warning, not least because what I said was meant as well-intentioned advice. But I suspect it's a hangover from other things, with other people being involved...

I have no idea who the person I addressed is or what he does. I still don't really know what CTE is or what aiming systems are for. All I've said is, coming from a snooker background, aiming systems sound unnecessary. If they work for others then fine, but I expect the right to be able to express my opinion without censor or prejudice.

Not too much to ask that, is it?

 

[AtLarge]

... what I said was meant as well-intentioned advice. ...

You also said, regarding Stan: "Those that can, play. Those that can't, teach." Stan is not only a teacher but an excellent player. Your comment was a direct insult -- although it sounds like you said it in ignorance, not knowing about his playing skills.

 

[dr_dave]

I still don't really know what CTE is or what aiming systems are for.

If you or others are curious, the basics of several versions, including Stan's, are summarized here:

CTE aiming system​

and many reasons for why these system help some people are described here:

benefits of various aiming systems​

Regards,
Dave

 

[Neil]

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