Please offer your opinions on cue design theft

I didn't want these questions to get lost.

Joe would you please answer them?

1. Have you, Joe Van Buren, ever hired any labor that you knew or suspected were not in the USA legally? The follow-up question is did you register all your employees for their state and federal taxes and make sure you paid the employer's share for each one?

2. Have you ever done work without providing an invoice to keep it off the books?

3. Have you ever paid anyone for work they did without it being accounted for properly?

I just want it on public record that you have always used legal American labor in your construction business, always registered your employees properly and always kept your transactions properly booked for tax purposes.

Being a good example is the first step towards positive change. We all expect that anyone who preaches something ought to practice what he preaches. So please answer the questions.
 
Would this crime in CHINA be a big deal like 30 lashes of the CANE Ala Singapore Style?
caning1.jpg



That is really sick Cowboy, WTF is this Crap an Asian version of Broke Back Mountain? The guy with the Cane appears to have a Woody while peering at a naked Mans Ass that he is Spanking or Beating!!!!!!!!!:yikes::barf:

Where do you get this shit Cowboy!!!!!!:shrug::shrug: and why post this crap in this thread, what does it have to do with anything that has been posted!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:cool:

Please take the Man Crush else where!!!!:mad:
 
So if you think you have something on me now is the time to publish it and get it out there. Otherwise keep your implications to yourself.

There was no implication you were a party to my scenario provided, I simply wanted to ask if you thought that was right. And your answer was it's wrong....those are my thoughts too.

From here on out, we all need to all agree that discussing CDT is a bannable offense. It always seems to bring out the 'best' in everyone. :(

Especially the best in graphics from the Cowboy....lol
 
There was no implication you were a party to my scenario provided, I simply wanted to ask if you thought that was right. And your answer was it's wrong....those are my thoughts too.

From here on out, we all need to all agree that discussing CDT is a bannable offense. It always seems to bring out the 'best' in everyone. :(

Especially the best in graphics from the Cowboy....lol



That is isn't funny, hell I don't even know what it is, but it is not funny!!!!

I mean where does he get this crap!!!!!:cool:
 
CC has way to much time on his hands. It would be better for all of us if he spent more time working on his game, then trolling the internet.
 
Education

In order that we may all be on the same page at least regarding the law in the USA here are a few resources.

Again this does NOT cover the moral or ethical questions surrounding CDT. But since many people make assumptions about what is and is not legal at least we can pretty much settle that aspect.

#1 What is a copyright?
http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html#protect

#2. What is a trademark?
http://www.uspto.gov/trademarks/basics/index.jsp

#3. How does US Customs handle alleged infringing merchandise?
http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/trade/priority_trade/ipr/legal/

For the purpose of this post we are talking about DESIGN and not the trademark. So the LOOK of a Joss cue not the actual Joss brand.

In short and in general things that have a utility (have a use such as a pool cue) are not protected by copyright BUT the design on them MAY be protected.

http://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/unprotected.html
http://scholar.google.com/scholar_c...7035&q=372+F.3d+913&hl=en&as_sdt=800000000002

http://www.3cpatents.com/_blog/Create,_Consult,_Control/post/Some_things_you_can't_copyright/

Registration of a copyright is not the same as ownership. Copyright exists as soon as the work being made is brought into existence. However just because you THINK you have a copyright on an item you created does not mean that you actually do. Registration is only listing your copyright with the federal government. They may accept your registration or deny it. If accepted then you may register with Customs and direct customs to stop and seize imports of items which violate your copyright.

Here is the database of Intellectual Property that is registered with US Customs.

http://iprs.cbp.gov/index.asp

A cursory search reveals that no major pool cue brand in the USA has registered their trademark much less their designs.

The point being that legally the designs on a pool cue are most likely NOT protected by copyright. However I am not an attorney so if you are a cue maker who wants to try and protect your designs then feel free to contact an attorney who specializes in IP and discuss it. At least one has posted in this thread.

It is fairly certain that a "style" cannot be copyrighted. When a cue maker's work all has a certain style or look that is something that cannot be copyrighted. It MIGHT be protectable under trade dress but that is another issue altogether and it is a very very high bar to get over to make the case for trade dress. Trade dress however is not something that Customs will enforce stoppage and seizure through registration. They will ONLY stop or seize goods that infringe trade dress IF ordered to by the court.

In essence each cue maker who wants to try and register their designs may do so. Even if granted copyright registration they may still have to prove that other items are infringing.

For the cue that inspired this thread it is NOT a case of infringement. So, from a legal standpoint the cue was not made illegally, it's not illegal to import it to the USA and sell it.

So now, you can discuss the moral and ethical parts without being confused as to the legality.
 
buy american made products and forget the forgeiners that copy our products and then send them here with a stick on label that says made in china that come right off.

This will be deleted because some people don't like the truth
 
Do you think your American made Dodge does not have any foreign made parts in it?

Bolts, machine screws etc........




buy american made products and forget the forgeiners that copy our products and then send them here with a stick on label that says made in china that come right off.

This will be deleted because some people don't like the truth
 
Do you think your American made Dodge does not have any foreign made parts in it?

Bolts, machine screws etc........

Add American Made GE Products, GM Cars & Trucks, and good old we took no bailout money FORD.

The Made in America Label mean not 100% MADE IN THE USA, or 100% US Components.

Google It!
 
Regarding the case I assume then that you are saying it is your intention to pay for it since you allowed your dog to destroy it rather than return it?

You sound upset. Don't be. We are just trying to establish that you are NOT a hypocrite so that those who wish to can get behind your words with confidence. After all it's painful when you follow someone and they turn out to be acting in direct opposition to the values they claim to hold.

This isn't about China Joe. It's about you. Only about you.

First off, you gave me the case and told me to keep it. I did the unbiased review as a favor to you. There was never a stipulation to return it, if I still have it you'll get it back.

I am not a hypocrite because when I say buy American, products made in America, it has zero to do with hiring illegals. Have I, sure, but since they were subs and made under 600 for the year my acoountant told me to not do anything. So there you have it. Just you use the smallest most hidden made in China tag on your junk, I to have minimized my business expense at the advice of a CPA in 2006.

Luckily for me since they passed legislation against hiring illegals the market tanked and there is so many people available, hiring in NJ doesn't have thse issues anymore. I can go anywhere if I need anyone.

JV
 
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Tell the racists and bigots to leave their nonsense at the door. Going back through the thread you will see that Joe and Playahater played the race card. What they started has nothing at all to do with the topic.

It has everything to do with the topic because the cue in question was mide in China. Again, not one racist or bigoted remark has been made. For the record you clown, YOU bought up this BS by continuing to call anyone that doesn't share your paradisian views on China racists and bigots. You got into it with playa, and then started that tired rhetoric which is ALL you do to protect your little piece of turf. Anyone that can read can read about China, can read about anything in the world. They can go to google and wiki, 2 places you love (except when someone finds something that China does wrong and points it out, then all of a sudden wiki is unreliable) I find it ironic that you set up shop right down the street from where the greatest Chinese scandal involving capitalism occured.

But don't act like some kind of victim like it was you that got ganged up on. Because that is far from the truth.

JV
 
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When I hear this stuff about copying design I seem to notice that its the overseas makers that are brought to the forefront not the makers in the US that do the same thing.I beginning to think its not the copying thats the real issue here but where its coming from which is totally bias in my opinion.:rolleyes:

Absolutely agreed!!!!

And I also totally agree with John Barton as well. If a tribute cue is made, then credit is certainly due to the creator of the particular design element. Knocking off a design and calling it your own is morally and ethically wrong, and could also be flattering if you were the original designer.

And progress halts if every design is limited solely to the original designer. When a cue maker makes a cue that is not round, not made of wood, has no tip, joint, handle, wrap, buttsleeve, or buttcap, then maybe he/she will have something truly original. Maybe.
 
Absolutely agreed!!!!

And I also totally agree with John Barton as well. If a tribute cue is made, then credit is certainly due to the creator of the particular design element. Knocking off a design and calling it your own is morally and ethically wrong, and could also be flattering if you were the original designer.

And progress halts if every design is limited solely to the original designer. When a cue maker makes a cue that is not round, not made of wood, has no tip, joint, handle, wrap, buttsleeve, or buttcap, then maybe he/she will have something truly original. Maybe.


Honestly looking at most of the Cues in the Cue Gallery, I do not see many "NEW" or UNIQUE" designs, but element of Old Designs, or Triditional Designs done again, and again.

Some Ed Prewitt's Ring work is unique and what I would call Signature Work.

Some of Richard Chudy's & Jerry McWorter's Designs are unique to them, and again Signature Work.

Like the profile of an Teardrop Travel Trailer,
teardrop_camper.jpg
You know what it is by the shape, and design.
 
For the record, the cue this thread was started about was a unique design until copied, and the cue was not offered as a Tribute Cue. If anyone saw this cue listed as a cue by unknown maker and they were knowledgeable about the cue market they would take for granted that the cue was made by Richard Churdy. Richard to my knowledge was the first and only cue maker to design a cue with Stacked Veneers on one side of the cues point and no Veneer on the other side of the cues points.

So until this copy was made the design in question was unique and it identified a single cue makers work. The problem I have with this type of design theft is pretty simple, a dishonest individual could remove the current logo on this cue and sell it as Richards work. To me it doesn't matter where the cue was made, it's like the extra Balabushka and Zamboti cues that have appeared on the market many of those cues started out with a Logo and were refinished / changed so that they could be misrepresented by a dishonest individual.

This is the problem with design theft, it may start out as an innocent project because some one loves a design and end up with some one else loosing thousands of dollars.

JIMO
 
For the record, the cue this thread was started about was a unique design until copied, and the cue was not offered as a Tribute Cue. If anyone saw this cue listed as a cue by unknown maker and they were knowledgeable about the cue market they would take for granted that the cue was made by Richard Churdy. Richard to my knowledge was the first and only cue maker to design a cue with Stacked Veneers on one side of the cues point and no Veneer on the other side of the cues points.

So until this copy was made the design in question was unique and it identified a single cue makers work. The problem I have with this type of design theft is pretty simple, a dishonest individual could remove the current logo on this cue and sell it as Richards work. To me it doesn't matter where the cue was made, it's like the extra Balabushka and Zamboti cues that have appeared on the market many of those cues started out with a Logo and were refinished / changed so that they could be misrepresented by a dishonest individual.

This is the problem with design theft, it may start out as an innocent project because some one loves a design and end up with some one else loosing thousands of dollars.

JIMO

That is a valid point, and someone doing that is engaging in an actual criminal act. That is blatant forgery. At least it should be a criminal act. But that is different than a cue maker looking at another's work and thinking "Wow, that is really beautiful. I think I am going to try a cue like that." It is clearly using someone's design, but not in any way to deceive others, or to take credit for the design being originally theirs. If we are talking about people stealing design ideas in order to make fake cues, than I absolutely agree with you that these people should be brought out and prosecuted if possible. But if it is just a matter of seeing a design one likes and making their own(and selling it as their own) then I do not really see the issue. If I pay 4 grand for a Black Boar, it better be made by Tony Scianella. I do not care if it is a spectacular cue, and plays better than an original BB, if it is a fake, I certainly do not want to pay for it at true Boar prices. That is my take on this issue.

Braden
 
First off, you gave me the case and told me to keep it. I did the unbiased review as a favor to you. There was never a stipulation to return it, if I still have it you'll get it back.

I am not a hypocrite because when I say buy American, products made in America, it has zero to do with hiring illegals. Have I, sure, but since they were subs and made under 600 for the year my acoountant told me to not do anything. So there you have it. Just you use the smallest most hidden made in China tag on your junk, I to have minimized my business expense at the advice of a CPA in 2006.

Luckily for me since they passed legislation against hiring illegals the market tanked and there is so many people available, hiring in NJ doesn't have thse issues anymore. I can go anywhere if I need anyone.

JV

Quoted for preservation.

So let's boil this all down.

You are an evangelist for buying American to support American labor but you hired illegal foreign labor in the USA.

You failed to pay the taxes due on the wages earned by the illegal labor you hired.

Got it. You keep the case Joe. You need it more than we do.

Thanks for the review. We got what we paid for.
 
It has everything to do with the topic because the cue in question was mide in China. Again, not one racist or bigoted remark has been made. For the record you clown, YOU bought up this BS by continuing to call anyone that doesn't share your paradisian views on China racists and bigots. You got into it with playa, and then started that tired rhetoric which is ALL you do to protect your little piece of turf. Anyone that can read can read about China, can read about anything in the world. They can go to google and wiki, 2 places you love (except when someone finds something that China does wrong and points it out, then all of a sudden wiki is unreliable) I find it ironic that you set up shop right down the street from where the greatest Chinese scandal involving capitalism occured.

But don't act like some kind of victim like it was you that got ganged up on. Because that is far from the truth.

JV

I am sorry, I am still thinking about you preaching to others about Buying American to support American LABOR when you hire illegal immigrant labor.

The opinions of a person who won't even pay for American labor in his own business located in the USA when he has the choice don't mean much to me.

You can go around the net and try to put down "China" all day and tie whatever you find back to me Joe, but the fact of is when it comes down to it you had the choice and you chose to ignore your American brothers and hire illegal labor.

Either all in or not. That's what you told Eric Crisp and anyone else about CDT. So you're either all in or not when it comes to your economic patriotism. You had the choice to hire legal American labor who needed the work. Sure you would have had to pay more for licensed skilled labor but that is what you preach so I don't understand why you didn't practice it.

Also Joe, I am still looking for the details about what you do to help your community? I know that you give work to the illegal aliens in your community which is great for them. But what else to you do? All of us would like to know so that we can copy your efforts and help our own communities. I am sure that you don't really want to tell everyone that they should hire illegal aliens to help their community.
 
For the record, the cue this thread was started about was a unique design until copied, and the cue was not offered as a Tribute Cue. If anyone saw this cue listed as a cue by unknown maker and they were knowledgeable about the cue market they would take for granted that the cue was made by Richard Churdy. Richard to my knowledge was the first and only cue maker to design a cue with Stacked Veneers on one side of the cues point and no Veneer on the other side of the cues points.

So until this copy was made the design in question was unique and it identified a single cue makers work. The problem I have with this type of design theft is pretty simple, a dishonest individual could remove the current logo on this cue and sell it as Richards work. To me it doesn't matter where the cue was made, it's like the extra Balabushka and Zamboti cues that have appeared on the market many of those cues started out with a Logo and were refinished / changed so that they could be misrepresented by a dishonest individual.

This is the problem with design theft, it may start out as an innocent project because some one loves a design and end up with some one else loosing thousands of dollars.

JIMO

That's because it's not a tribute cue. And no someone could not take off the logo and sell it as a Chudy. To do that someone would need to put the Chudy logo on it. Because 2 minute's of research shows that all Chudy cues have the RC3 logo on them.

Misrepresentation has nothing at all to do with the maker though when they put out their product with no malice. Anyone can take any cue and alter it to attempt to defraud someone else.

Hell I saw a guy here in China pull out a Helmstetter Balabuska, with signature on the forearm and then pull out a laminated copy of the Blue Book's entry on George Balabushka to show me to "prove" that the cue was valuable. The price he was asking, $10,000. Someone somewhere probably ended up getting scammed on this cue. That's life and has been happening since ugg sold stuff to ogg.

Did you know that the ancient greek merchants invented distinctive packaging to differentiate their wine from the competition's? They would hire gangs of enforcers to smash the jugs of wine merchants who copied their jug design.

Yes Richard was the first to do the one-sided veneers, but he isn't the first anymore. In all things someone always has to be the first. Being the first is special but it does not grant a person a monopoly on whatever it is that they did first.

If I were the first person to run a mile in three minutes would you seek to ban all other humans from running a mile in three minutes? What if they copied my technique and broke my 3 minute record and started running it in 2 minutes? Should we shoot them?

There is no way on the Earth that you can prevent fraud Craig. It's impossible. No matter what is made someone else will find a way to copy it and use that copy to defraud others. You are honestly wasting your time raging about it and speculating about what could happen.

The only real way to prevent yourself from being defrauded is to practice due diligence. Do your homework. People that don't do this are much easier to con.

The point is that we can not run around and condemn every person who makes a pool cue in a similar "Style" as another cue maker. We can't use the excuse that such a cue could be used to deceive some other person somewhere down the road. A hammer can be used to kill and we don't ban hammers.

If you want to condemn the people who make dead-nuts knockoffs then go ahead. I think that using another person's catalog of cue designs is crass and unimaginative.

But if one looks at the fashion industry which is doing about a trillion dollars a year in revenue they are flourishing despite the fact that millions of copies of the newest designs flood the market within weeks of being debuted on the runways at the big shows. All the famous brands are big and rich and the designers are celebrities. There is no copyright attached to fashion designs and yet the industry is making tons of money.

Let's look at just these two threads. Richard Chudy has gotten a ton of free publicity off this discussion. I would not be surprised if he gets a few orders. I knew he did the one-sided veneers but I hadn't really gone to look at his work and now I have and he has some amazing cues. So the benefit to Chudy is that this one cue from a new maker has generated more buzz about Chudy's work. This is great because no matter how much you or I are in the know about who does what there are people out there who don't have a clue who Richard Chudy is.

And when it comes down to it people who have the money and who have the desire aren't looking to buy cues from people who specialize in being second to market with a particular style or design. Those people want to buy from the originator, they want original art from the source.

So it all works out in the cycle of life.
 
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