Mosconi on aiming .

[lfigueroa]

Backhand English (BHE) is a technique for compensating for squirt when using English. It assumes the center-ball aim has already been determined. In typical "aiming system" threads, the phrase "aiming system" usually refers to a method or procedure that can be used to aim basic center-ball cut shots. Many example "aiming systems" can be found here:

aiming system resource page​

However, there are many "systems" that help people aim kick and bank shots, determine CB direction for position control, compensate for squirt, swerve, and throw, etc. All of these "systems" can help people determine required lines of aim for different types of shots, but they are not the types of "aiming systems" usually debated in these threads.

Regards,
Dave

So... if someone says Efren is using a "system," vice technique, maybe that is not so accurate?

Lou Figueroa
just askin'

 

[lfigueroa]

Yes in the same sense that being shown Ghost Ball is a short cut. Any time someone TEACHES you something that shortens your learning curve then it IS a shortcut.

However the way SJD and I guess now you like to present it is that I am telling everyone that ALL you need is a good aiming system. Never said that as evidenced above.

John, FWIW, I'll give you a pass, but only for two reasons: first, I don't care that much; and second, the AZ powers have whacked so many threads it's impossible to go back and reconstruct anything about what anyone said anytime about anything.

It's a shame, but it's the way it is. In fact, I'm not even going to use the "show me" defense anymore here, because evermore increasingly it is a joke.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

In case Bill doesn't get back, I think that would be:

Joe Davis, Complete Snooker (for the Amateur), 1967 (plus other editions), hardback with dust jacket. I think this was a combination of two of his previous books, "How I Play Snooker" and "Advanced Snooker".​

Bob, you know damn well that my (or anyone else's) library is nowhere near your library. I don' even do snooker or 3C (with just a couple of exceptions). Could you pulesseeeee be a little more forthcoming than that?

Lou Figueroa
pretty please

 

[JB Cases]

Just to clarify:

contactpoint to contactpoint works perfectly. But you have to be able to determine
where the OB contactpoint is based on how you are hitting the CB and/or any and all other effects.

This precise prediction capability is called "knowing how to aim"

Dale

Correct. And I would further add that ANY set of actions that one performs consistently in the service of getting to the shot line is part of knowing how to aim.

The result of any shot intended for a pocket has only two states. Pocketed or not.

If the shooter is pocketing most of his balls then it can be assumed that he knows how to aim.

If he is not pocketing most of the shots he takes then it can be assumed that he either does not know how to aim or he does not know how to shoot to the target he is aimed at.

 

[lfigueroa]

Correct. And I would further add that ANY set of actions that one performs consistently in the service of getting to the shot line is part of knowing how to aim.

The result of any shot intended for a pocket has only two states. Pocketed or not.

If the shooter is pocketing most of his balls then it can be assumed that he knows how to aim.

If he is not pocketing most of the shots he takes then it can be assumed that he either does not know how to aim or he does not know how to shoot to the target he is aimed at.

"Knowing how to aim" can (and is for many of us) just trusting what we see and pulling the trigger.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Majic]

In case Bill doesn't get back, I think that would be:

Joe Davis, Complete Snooker (for the Amateur), 1967 (plus other editions), hardback with dust jacket. I think this was a combination of two of his previous books, "How I Play Snooker" and "Advanced Snooker".​

I have that book. The area method is using the ghost ball with sighting on the area of the cue ball overlapping the object ball.

 

[JB Cases]

"Knowing how to aim" can (and is for many of us) just trusting what we see and pulling the trigger.

Lou Figueroa

That's fine Lou. No one has ever said that you should do anything else. I think I can speak for everyone on this forum when I say that I wish pool was like that for me. I wish that pool was 100% point and shoot without any other layer of consideration on top of it.

The thing that bothers me more than anything is that you assume that pool CAN be that way for everyone if they just put in the time. SJD doesn't agree with you but his advice to people who never reach point-and-shoot stage is for them to quit.

I don't agree. I think that those people can have fun trying other methods and if one happens to click for them then great. When they play the then get the same enjoyment as you do with your point and shoot style. That enjoyment being success at pocketing the shots.

 

[lfigueroa]

That's fine Lou. No one has ever said that you should do anything else. I think I can speak for everyone on this forum when I say that I wish pool was like that for me. I wish that pool was 100% point and shoot without any other layer of consideration on top of it.

The thing that bothers me more than anything is that you assume that pool CAN be that way for everyone if they just put in the time. SJD doesn't agree with you but his advice to people who never reach point-and-shoot stage is for them to quit.

I don't agree. I think that those people can have fun trying other methods and if one happens to click for them then great. When they play the then get the same enjoyment as you do with your point and shoot style. That enjoyment being success at pocketing the shots.

John. The day you can "speak for everyone on this forum," in any capacity, will certainly be the end of days for all of us

Perhaps it can be fun to try out different methods and systems, but I think most folks here want to get better without wasting their time going down blind alleys and dead ends. The systems may be fun for some to mess with, but unless your Appleton, who was already a fantastic player and has hundreds of hours to play pool and devote a few of them to screwing around with a system now and then, why waste the time (and money)?

Lou Figueroa

 

[JB Cases]

John, FWIW, I'll give you a pass, but only for two reasons: first, I don't care that much; and second, the AZ powers have whacked so many threads it's impossible to go back and reconstruct anything about what anyone said anytime about anything.

It's a shame, but it's the way it is. In fact, I'm not even going to use the "show me" defense anymore here, because evermore increasingly it is a joke.

Lou Figueroa

There is no need to give ME a pass. I know what I said. Your quote proved that I have NEVER said that aiming systems alone are all one needs to become a champion.

Never said it. Please, if you can't see that ANY method, even Ghost Ball is a shortcut in the learning curve then we really are hopelessly apart in our logic.

If I buy Freddie's books on banking then the knowledge in there is a definite shortcut on the way to becoming a good one pocket player. If you and I start out at exactly the same time and I have Freddie's books and you don't then I will be a better banker than you are in a shorter amount of time. That doesn't mean that you won't ever get as good as me or get even better. It just means that at that moment when I have the knowledge and you don't then I have an advantage over you until such time, if ever, you catch up to me.

 

[JB Cases]

John. The day you can "speak for everyone on this forum," in any capacity, will certainly be the end of days for all of us

Perhaps it can be fun to try out different methods and systems, but I think most folks here want to get better without wasting their time going down blind alleys and dead ends. The systems may be fun for some to mess with, but unless your Appleton, who was already a fantastic player and has hundreds of hours to screw around with a system now and then, why waste the time (and money)?

Lou Figueroa

I guess we will just have to agree then that we have differing philosophies on life.

This man sums up mine succinctly,

"Two roads diverged in a wood and I - I took the one less traveled by, and that has made all the difference."
Robert Frost

Now if you can find a quote by any great thinker that advocates a narrow minded, don't-try-anything-new, approach to life I would like to see it.

 

[lfigueroa]

There is no need to give ME a pass. I know what I said. Your quote proved that I have NEVER said that aiming systems alone are all one needs to become a champion.

Never said it. Please, if you can't see that ANY method, even Ghost Ball is a shortcut in the learning curve then we really are hopelessly apart in our logic.

If I buy Freddie's books on banking then the knowledge in there is a definite shortcut on the way to becoming a good one pocket player. If you and I start out at exactly the same time and I have Freddie's books and you don't then I will be a better banker than you are in a shorter amount of time. That doesn't mean that you won't ever get as good as me or get even better. It just means that at that moment when I have the knowledge and you don't then I have an advantage over you until such time, if ever, you catch up to me.

OK, I'm not interest in chasing it, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, though you say I don't need to (and I expect you to give the same to me).

Lou Figueroa

 

[bstroud]

Sorry Bill but if you didn't learn to aim through trial and error and hitting a million balls and running the roads then your opinion doesn't count.

It's blasphemy to say you learned to aim from a book. And further heresy to say that what was in the book was not "ghost ball" and even further sins against nature to claim that a world class professional was teaching this non-ghost ball method.

Please go to SJD and apologize for misleading the newbies.

Better yet how about you and SJD match up some one hole and I will ship it all in on you.

Perhaps I should have said that I learned the correct way of aiming in the Joe Davis book "Advanced Snooker".

He used what you seem to call a ghost ball but carried it one step further by advocating a masked AREA to aim at. It gives you a larger target on most shots than some kind of spot does.

It requires practice to get used to because you hit a lot of shots FAT in the beginning.

The larger target seems to instill a lot more confidence on all shots.

It is still working very well for me 50 years later.

Bill Stroud

 

[SJDinPHX]

Well, first if I"m a "banger" I'm not sure what you would be because you replied three times to my same post...... I guess you would just be a keyboard banger
Top speed; 3-4 WPM (drunk drops to 1.5)

CRJ: Well, no systems to take on VEGAS?. Well, one of them was created by somebody you know on 1P.org who made MILLIONS.....and he used ....wait for it........ a system!!
I know of whom you speak, as does my other aquaintences, in similar fields..

SJD: Nice "Banger" statement !

CRJ: How can it be a banger statement if it was true. He made millions and he posts quite frequently on 1P.org, your home turf.....made more money than any pool player alive gambling (more like stealing) but just symantics I guess..... you might not like him, but you gotta give him props for the money he "made" off the casinos' for YEARS.... and he can shoot "a little" 1P to boot !!! :grin:
Apparently you overlooked my answer re; Vega's in post #62 ???..Do you need a link ?

PS: SJD, if you gonna reply to this.... figure out what u gonna say first so you don't have to go back and change it three times,,,, take your time, take a deap breath, and aim those "keys".....
Smartass..As I said before, it ain't easy at 1.5 WPM typing speed..makes my mind wander

G'nite bed, I'm going to all..................................

 

[SpiderWebComm]

At one time the BCA had an official Instructor's Training Manual, but it got discarded along the way and most Master Academies neither contributed to it nor used it. There is more or less no stance by the BCA Instructor Program on the usefulness of any particular pool idea with a few exceptions. Those exceptions would be the products which have been endorsed by the program. I have found some of those products to be ..... not worth their cost. Each instructor decides on his own curriculum and emphasis.

Which products are not worth their cost? Don't be shy

 

[SJDinPHX]

I guess we will just have to agree then that we have differing philosophies on life.

This man sums up mine succinctly,

"Two roads diverged in a wood and I - I took the one less traveled by, and that has made all the difference."
Robert Frost

Now if you can find a quote by any great thinker that advocates a narrow minded, don't-try-anything-new, approach to life I would like to see it.

"He who acts as legal counsel for himself, has an 'idiot' for a client"...(very fitting I thought, a point you prove every day)..:thumbup:

PS..Lou was busy, ignoring you, which by the way, I HAVE to learn THAT "system"..

 

[Bob Callahan]

Gosh. I try to stay out of these things, but after reading 7 pages, I just have to say something. Quoting myself quoting Byrne quoting Mcgoorty talking about Hoppe, in another thread:

In Bob Byrne's book about Danny McGoorty, he says, "Not only did Hoppe not use the diamond system, he had nothing to do with developing it."

It's part of a discussion on Danny watching Willie try out the system in his book for the first time--in 1950. He also says, "Those charts were put in the book by Byron Schoeman, and a lot of them are haywire." And about Willie, "...he was not a system player."

It's a great book, and all pool lovers should have a copy.

I know it's not about aiming as it's being discussed here, but it has the same flavor. Aiming systems are guidelines, at best. Everybody actually plays by feel, no matter what they think they are doing. Sometimes aiming systems hinder people who get too attached to them.

 

[SJDinPHX]

Gosh. I try to stay out of these things, but after reading 7 pages, I just have to say something. Quoting myself quoting Byrne quoting Mcgoorty talking about Hoppe, in another thread:



I know it's not about aiming as it's being discussed here, but it has the same flavor. Aiming systems are guidelines, at best.

Everybody actually plays by feel, no matter what they think they are doing. AMEN !

Sometimes aiming systems hinder people who get too attached to them. AMEN !

FINALLY, a sensible, intelligent post...Props to you sir..:thumbup:

PS..Obviously, at least ONE, APA3 player, (a regular on here) has been "hindered" for years now... (Name via PM only)

 

[JB Cases]

Perhaps I should have said that I learned the correct way of aiming in the Joe Davis book "Advanced Snooker".

He used what you seem to call a ghost ball but carried it one step further by advocating a masked AREA to aim at. It gives you a larger target on most shots than some kind of spot does.

It requires practice to get used to because you hit a lot of shots FAT in the beginning.

The larger target seems to instill a lot more confidence on all shots.

It is still working very well for me 50 years later.

Bill Stroud

Right, I have seen this referred to as a covering method. On YouTube there is a series of videos where Steve Davis demonstrates this and says that all shots are pretty much 1/4 cover, 1/2 ball cover, or 3/4 ball cover with just slight variations in between. He says if you learn to recognize these three "covers" then when you step to the shot you will understand how far to the left or right of them you need to adjust to be in line.

My point was that it does not matter how one learns to aim because the proof is in the shot making. If a person learns the Joe Davis method, the Steve Davis method or the Sammy Davis method the only thing that matters is are they making balls or not. If not then get some qualified instruction to make sure the method is being done right or move on to something else.

 

[SJDinPHX]

Right, I have seen this referred to as a covering method. On YouTube there is a series of videos where Steve Davis demonstrates this and says that all shots are pretty much 1/4 cover, 1/2 ball cover, or 3/4 ball cover with just slight variations in between. He says if you learn to recognize these three "covers" then when you step to the shot you will understand how far to the left or right of them you need to adjust to be in line.

My point was that it does not matter how one learns to aim because the proof is in the shot making. If a person learns the Joe Davis method, the Steve Davis method or the Sammy Davis method the only thing that matters is are they making balls or not. If not then get some qualified instruction to make sure the method is being done right or move on to something else.

Please, "fast typer person", do not miss the three prededing posts....:thumbup:

 

[Neil]

...........