Tips of english or stroke?

M

Mikjary

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Whenever there is a discussion about a particular spin shot, the terminology for the amount of english needed is usually given as one tip, two tips, half of a tip, etc. While this is a good indicator of the amount of spin you need to pocket the ball, is this what every player does?

IOW, does each player actually place their tip at these cueing increments on the cue ball? Or do they take the amount of tips info and use their stroke to accomplish the needed amount of spin while staying close to center cue ball?

Over the years I've noticed that as the caliber of play rises, cue tip placement starts to occupy the center or base of the cue ball. With BHE or similar methods the stroke comes more into play while applying spin. Rarely do I see a top player on the edge of the cue ball unless they usually address it that way, ala Busty.

Please don't answer this post with a lesson on what the correct procedure is for imparting spin on the cue ball or why staying close to center is better. The question is meant to analyze and open a discussion on what we think we do versus what we really do or should look at doing. I have my own method, but would like to hear what others perceive they do.

Best,
Mike
 
My tip placement is all over the clock. There's 3 clocks. Tip placement is specific and calculated numerically and by feel.

But I don't do pockets.
 
Great question!

We address this situation on the first day of Pool School. Each student is allowed to describe their "tips" of English.


From Center Cue Ball, I use 3mm per tip, that's pretty finite for me.

To each their own,
randyg
 
This is a hard question to answer because most players, even pros, oftentimes don't do what they think they do.
 
I only use the term "tips of english" to describe a shot to someone else. I can't see how any system can accurately tell you exactly how many tips to use on any given shot with variables such as cloth type, rails, cue angle, etc. For me it's all feel.
 
I use percentages of maximum spin, rather than tips as the ball sizes vary from one game to another, as does the diameter of the tip itself. The amount used is strongly determined by feel and the table's condition. I rarely need maximum side (1.5 tips) to move the CB.
 
The only shots I really use more than a tip of english on are safeties where I have to get the cue ball somewhere, but my stroke speed is limited because I have to control the object ball as well. Kicks also sometimes require a lot of english.

For making shots, its usually best to stay within a tip and manipulate the cue ball with speed and top or bottom because control of the object ball is rarely a factor (it might come up occasionally for banks).

Because of that, I generally measure english in 3 increments (little, medium, and lots, lots is a bit more than a tip). For kicks, I measure in tips when it is required.

On that note, I use a little english quite often as it raises shot making accuracy, helps with speed control, and reduces skids on more than a few types of shots.
 
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I use "a little.." "little more..." ;)

Only thing I'll add as a comment to center ball and better players is I think it takes awhile for some people to realize your don't need to cue near as off center as they think they need to get the desired 'action' on the CB if you have a solid consistant stroke.
 
Mikjary said:
Whenever there is a discussion about a particular spin shot, the terminology for the amount of english needed is usually given as one tip, two tips, half of a tip, etc. While this is a good indicator of the amount of spin you need to pocket the ball, is this what every player does?

IOW, does each player actually place their tip at these cueing increments on the cue ball? Or do they take the amount of tips info and use their stroke to accomplish the needed amount of spin while staying close to center cue ball?

Over the years I've noticed that as the caliber of play rises, cue tip placement starts to occupy the center or base of the cue ball. With BHE or similar methods the stroke comes more into play while applying spin. Rarely do I see a top player on the edge of the cue ball unless they usually address it that way, ala Busty.

Please don't answer this post with a lesson on what the correct procedure is for imparting spin on the cue ball or why staying close to center is better. The question is meant to analyze and open a discussion on what we think we do versus what we really do or should look at doing. I have my own method, but would like to hear what others perceive they do.

Best,
Mike
Click to expand...


I stick pretty close to the center of the cue ball. Given a tip of 12.5mm I think I rarely go off the center line more than 2 or 3mm. It'll get the job done and is very controllable/predictable.

However, there are a number of no-go 1pocket banks, particularly cross table, that suddenly become makable by going further out. I say the cross table ones because typically in a cross table situation the balls are in close enough quarters that, even though you're far out on the cue ball, everything (CB, OB, rail, pocket) is still controllable. Same for some kick shots and safeties. The margin of error will allow you to get farther out and still make the shot.

Lou Figueroa
 
I describe the English I use in terms of tips. When first started playing, I kept everything to center ball or one tip of English, max. As I got better I was able to move further out to the edge of the cue-ball with English.

It is my opinion, that some games, do not require large amount of English, (straight pool, one pocket) whereas rotation games, require more amounts of English to be applied more often.

Try playing a set of 9 ball using no more than one tip of English on a big table, and you will see for yourself. There are many shots that cannot be made without spinning the cueball to the max.


Mikjary said:
Whenever there is a discussion about a particular spin shot, the terminology for the amount of english needed is usually given as one tip, two tips, half of a tip, etc. While this is a good indicator of the amount of spin you need to pocket the ball, is this what every player does?

IOW, does each player actually place their tip at these cueing increments on the cue ball? Or do they take the amount of tips info and use their stroke to accomplish the needed amount of spin while staying close to center cue ball?

Over the years I've noticed that as the caliber of play rises, cue tip placement starts to occupy the center or base of the cue ball. With BHE or similar methods the stroke comes more into play while applying spin. Rarely do I see a top player on the edge of the cue ball unless they usually address it that way, ala Busty.

Please don't answer this post with a lesson on what the correct procedure is for imparting spin on the cue ball or why staying close to center is better. The question is meant to analyze and open a discussion on what we think we do versus what we really do or should look at doing. I have my own method, but would like to hear what others perceive they do.

Best,
Mike
Click to expand...
 
Tony_in_MD said:
I describe the English I use in terms of tips. When first started playing, I kept everything to center ball or one tip of English, max. As I got better I was able to move further out to the edge of the cue-ball with English.

It is my opinion, that some games, do not require large amount of English, (straight pool, one pocket) whereas rotation games, require more amounts of English to be applied more often.

Try playing a set of 9 ball using no more than one tip of English on a big table, and you will see for yourself. There are many shots that cannot be made without spinning the cueball to the max.
Click to expand...

This one with all due respect is a little tough for me to digest. the shots come up in all games whether it be one pocket,14.1, or 9 ball. Extreme English may come up in one pocket just as any other game. After all almost everyone cues the ball differently.
There is so much talk about systems as how to cue and how to aim. They have their place too and especialy for the beginners. As time goes by and one learns the basic principals of application I feel everyone learns to feel the shot differently and in doing so aims and applies to the cue ball differently.
But back to the point, shots come up in 14.1 and one pocket just as they do in 9 ball etc. I have always felt that learning to shoot the right shot at the right time and without fear is what wins matches and games.
By learning the correct way to play position and the right angles for position, there is more often than not no need for all the fancy spin and draws. That is afterall one of the big differences from the players we want to be and the players we are.
As my daughter says, KISS!
 
Tony_in_MD said:
Try playing a set of 9 ball using no more than one tip of English on a big table, and you will see for yourself. There are many shots that cannot be made without spinning the cueball to the max.
Click to expand...

Only if your doing something wrong. ;)

"Someone" famous once said if you can't run a rack using center ball only , you can't call yourself a pool player. :grin-square:
 
L. Salazar said:
I only use the term "tips of english" to describe a shot to someone else. I can't see how any system can accurately tell you exactly how many tips to use on any given shot with variables such as cloth type, rails, cue angle, etc. For me it's all feel.
Click to expand...
Calibrate your "tips" to predict the spread going across the short then see the tangent and calculate whats needed.

Lou probably has it right for pool. Most everything is close or on the vertical then vary the speed accordingly. But the point is the tip placement is determined either by numbers, feel or both. Not just as Neil says most do, by going max if not dead center.

Half ball hits are extremely predictable.
 
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exactly Lou...

lfigueroa said:
I stick pretty close to the center of the cue ball. Given a tip of 12.5mm I think I rarely go off the center line more than 2 or 3mm. It'll get the job done and is very controllable/predictable.

However, there are a number of no-go 1pocket banks, particularly cross table, that suddenly become makable by going further out. I say the cross table ones because typically in a cross table situation the balls are in close enough quarters that, even though you're far out on the cue ball, everything (CB, OB, rail, pocket) is still controllable. Same for some kick shots and safeties. The margin of error will allow you to get farther out and still make the shot.

Lou Figueroa
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There is a tendency for people that realize they can use inside and outside english to only "see" the shots that use the side spin, so they over use it. There are very few shots that you really NEED to use side spin. In one pocket and banks it is more often that you need it.

There are very few situations that you can't just use a little follow or draw along with firmness of stroke and tangent to get where you're going.

Now on the op's note, tips as a denotation of quantity of English is going to be a little bit individual in nature. But many things in pool are. How firm or soft to hit a bank to change the angle, etc...

It does give a general idea and is easier to understand than 2.5 mm.

BTW, if you say one tip of inside English, it is going to be half of whatever width your tip is, since you are making contact with the center of your tip.

If you have a 13mm tip and you actually put it one tip width off center, you are hitting the CB 7.5mm off center, actually a little less than 7.5mm off center because the surfaces are curved, and an off center hit will cause a more inner portion of the curved surface to make contact.

Jaden
 
I never cue more than a tip for english. If I have to apply extreme spin, I go out a half tip more. This is rare, but I do it if necessary. That being said, if I need a little or a lot of spin, I still cue about one tip from center.

I adjust my stroke, no BHE, FHE, etc. to get the correct amount of spin. I'm not talking vertical or horizontal...nothong to do with the clock face. Whatever english I need, low left or right, middle or high, I cue pretty much around a tip off center and use my stroke to apply the needed amount of spin and speed.

I understand this may be not a good idea for early instruction and probably would only be used by advanced players, but I bring up this point after researching and discussing it at length.

I feel it is an advanced technique worthy of mainly advanced players. I've studied video and broken down several different strokes the top players are using and found the poster child for this cueing technique to be Efren. We all know his ball spinning capabilities and have watched him get into some pretty tough position zones.

The interesting thing about all this is where he addresses the cue ball to get the amount of spin he does. I've watched him get force follow just above center cue ball a half tip or so. How is this possible? I know it's not the cue he uses. :grin:

I'm not comparing my game to his game. I'm trying to get some feedback from other players who use this method and kind of put it out there to people who don't that could benefit from it. It might be worth looking at to get to the next level.

Best,
Mike
 
Yes, but the frequency of the shots that require more spin is higher in rotation games, which is what I was trying to communicate.

IMHO.

ironman said:
This one with all due respect is a little tough for me to digest. the shots come up in all games whether it be one pocket,14.1, or 9 ball. Extreme English may come up in one pocket just as any other game. After all almost everyone cues the ball differently.
There is so much talk about systems as how to cue and how to aim. They have their place too and especialy for the beginners. As time goes by and one learns the basic principals of application I feel everyone learns to feel the shot differently and in doing so aims and applies to the cue ball differently.
But back to the point, shots come up in 14.1 and one pocket just as they do in 9 ball etc. I have always felt that learning to shoot the right shot at the right time and without fear is what wins matches and games.
By learning the correct way to play position and the right angles for position, there is more often than not no need for all the fancy spin and draws. That is afterall one of the big differences from the players we want to be and the players we are.
As my daughter says, KISS!
Click to expand...
 
Quite possibly, I am.

I think tomorrow, I will practice some sets of 9 ball using center ball to see how it works out.

RRfireblade said:
Only if your doing something wrong. ;)

"Someone" famous once said if you can't run a rack using center ball only , you can't call yourself a pool player. :grin-square:
Click to expand...
 
That is the truth of the matter. Pure stroke and accuracy accomplishes more.

Neil said:
I think some determine a tip of english as the width of the ferrule. I determine it as the chalk mark left on the cb after a shot. Once in a while, while playing someone, you will here them say "wow, where did that come from?", referring to getting a lot of draw or english on a shot. Much more than they intended to get. I believe two things can cause this- 1. they aren't used to hitting the cb where they think they are hitting it, and 2. they actually put a good stroke on the ball, and got the results they were supposed to get, but weren't used to getting.

With the "good" players, one notices that they don't have to hit the ball as hard to get good results. That is a result of actually stroking through the cb, and not just hitting the cb. It makes a huge difference in the amount of english that takes.
Click to expand...
 
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