Tips of english or stroke?
- Thread starter Mikjary
- Start date
Neil,
I agree completely with the power advantage created on a power break shot by dropping the elbow, raising the body, and using a choked-up grip. But with a power break, significant elbow drop occurs during the stroke into the ball. I don't think Mike's slight elbow motion before CB contact on the draw shot is creating much power effect. If it were, I think the elbow would continue to drop during the entire stroke (as it does during a power break shot).
BTW, for people interested, I have a link to Colin's video, with summaries of his technique advice, here:
Elbow drop can definitely help one add significant power, when coordinated with body and shoulder motion.
Regards,
Dave
I slightly raise my arm on power shots. When I try to use only a pendulum movement, I don't generate as much power. This may be because I haven't used the pendulum stroke as much, but I do notice a definite increase in stroking ability with the upper arm moving slightly.
Best,
Mike
Best,
Mike
Do you drop your elbow during the entire stroke (before contact, during contact, and after contact)? If so, it would make sense that can get more power (with less apparent effort).
Regards,
Dave
Not like Scott Frost. :grin:
It seems to me like a little added weight to the stroke. I slightly raise the elbow and return it to its starting position on some shots. I also noticed Earl doesn't do this as much with his new 29 ounce javelin.Best,
Mike
The tip in the last clip (which distorts and visibly compresses) is a Moori. The shooter is Andreas Efler and he told me that is his standard tip and not something special that they did for the filming.
I tried that yesterday starting with my tip to the left of the CB and swiping the CB with a glancing blow (BHE) to the right to effect right english and got more effecctive spin off of the rail above.
The downside is that I couldn't control the CB's path to the OB....I need more practice with this technique.:wink::thumbup:
Was the CB hitting the cushion in the same place with both approaches (straight stroke at an angle vs. swoop stroke from the straight position)? That's important in the comparison, IMO.
Regards,
Dave
This is certainly getting over my head but I noticed 2 comments.
Massey: "You gotta let it all out."
Dr. Dave: "Notice how relaxed his wrist is."
I don't think the elbow drop helps per say but does help in the "Letting it all out" department.
The very relaxed wrist/grip allows the cue to be unencumbered. "let the cue do the work"
What I haven't heard from any of the experts is why a relaxed grip helps other than maybe helping to hit the CB where you intend. I can hit a CB where I want with a stiff wrist but the action is different. Why? This type of question needs to be answered IMO. Rather than just saying its so. These are the types of mysteries that question the status quo. After all if I hit the same spot as Massey why don't I get the same action. After all "the CB is gone in 1/1000 seconds. Its only the contact point that matters" Right? Is his cue speed that much faster than anybody else? There's more going on here. What is it?
Other question a little off topic:
Tip deflection @ contact. What if I have a conical 3C shaft or a Masse cue vs a pool tapered shaft. What gives me the most spin. Do I want deflection or not for added spin. Seems to me I want the stiffest chunck of wood I can find based on what I see with the Masse artists. Yes I realize we might want to taylor the spine to the CB weight but??
Massey: "You gotta let it all out."
Dr. Dave: "Notice how relaxed his wrist is."
I don't think the elbow drop helps per say but does help in the "Letting it all out" department.
The very relaxed wrist/grip allows the cue to be unencumbered. "let the cue do the work"
What I haven't heard from any of the experts is why a relaxed grip helps other than maybe helping to hit the CB where you intend. I can hit a CB where I want with a stiff wrist but the action is different. Why? This type of question needs to be answered IMO. Rather than just saying its so. These are the types of mysteries that question the status quo. After all if I hit the same spot as Massey why don't I get the same action. After all "the CB is gone in 1/1000 seconds. Its only the contact point that matters" Right? Is his cue speed that much faster than anybody else? There's more going on here. What is it?
Other question a little off topic:
Tip deflection @ contact. What if I have a conical 3C shaft or a Masse cue vs a pool tapered shaft. What gives me the most spin. Do I want deflection or not for added spin. Seems to me I want the stiffest chunck of wood I can find based on what I see with the Masse artists. Yes I realize we might want to taylor the spine to the CB weight but??
A tight grip creates tension that can inhibit smooth cue acceleration for most people, IMO.
... and cue speed, weight, and elevation.
The cue speed Mike generates is certainly much faster than most people, especially mere mortals.
IMO, there isn't. He just hits the ball low with lots of cue speed. That's all it takes to create good draw action. Now, the trick is to have the muscle control and technique necessary to create tip-contact accuracy and consistency with lots of speed.
Regards,
Dave
I agree, but this is a vague statement. :wink: Not to be more of a PITA than I usually am, I have been trying to start a discussion on this subject for months. Several others have been humoring me and seem to want the same thing for XMas I do.
Muscle control and technique are concepts, and I know they answer a question about why something happens. I'm more interested in how and getting to the actual kinesiology involved. The physics is a great tool for telling us what happens with the balls, tables and tips. Adding the biomechanical and psychological aspects into our studies will catch us up with the rest of the sports world...one argument at a time. :grin-square:
Don't stop now!
Best,
Mike
I don't have a stiff thick break stick with a phenolic tip to try that draw shot with - I suspect that the CB will hop in the air on contact.
There must be a correlation betweeen the compliance of the tip and the amount of contact time to effect english, top or draw...academic no?
With the OB on the spot and the CB in the center of the kitchen, I shot thus:
I tried starting on the left and then stroking right to swipe across the face of the CB to effect right english, but i contacted the CB at about center ball and effected stun when I contacted the OB with the CB. I had better luck if I started at center CB and swiped to the right.
Swiping as above seemed to send the CB toward the head rail near the right corner pocket and I often scratched in that pocket. When I hit the head rail near the pocket, the CB would spin to the right of the pocket. The OB was sent to the head rail a bit to the left of center and banked back to the rail nearest me.
Using a straight right english stroke to send the OB just to the right of center often sent the OB to the center spot and banking into the CB due to squirt.
When I was able to send the OB to the left of center with straight right english, the CB hit the head rail closer to the first diamond to the left of the right corner pocket and then spun to the first diamond just below the target pocket.
My take away is that swiping is not, for me, predictable/controlable, but it does reduce squirt because the cue tip is glancing off the CB circumference and not penetrating it...so to speak.
With straight right english, did the CB hit the head rail at the diamond to the left of the right corner pocket due to the forward force vector rather than closer to the pocket with a swipe and less forward force vector???
Is this all just academic??
I find swiping down on the CB for draw to be more rewarding.
Just saying.:wink:
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Just a thought. Get down on the shot with your usual alignment for spinning the cue ball without the swipe/crossover. Now move over to the opposite side of the cue ball and proceed without adjusting your alignment.
It will feel strange at first, but your subconscious will give up steering the cue in a few minutes. :grin-square: Then it will be easier to control.
Best,
Mike
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