Ceramithane

Lexicologist71

Lexicologist71

Rabid Schuler fanatic
Silver Member
I've just started sanding the finish on a couple of cues to which I applied several layers of Ceramithane. According to the label, you can recoat every 2 hours. I did that, but have since heard that I should limit applications to 2 per day. They were last coated about 3 days ago. While sanding them, I've noticed that some layers are visible, sorta like a Damascus steel knife. Does this mean the finish isn't yet cured? Does it mean that it didn't adhere to the previous coat? If I let them sit for another week, will I be able to continue as usual? In the process of sanding, I took a couple of thousandths off with 320 grit paper in an effort to eliminate this effect.


Okay, the finish is still markable with a fingernail. Strip it? I hope not. That's 6 cues.
 
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What temperature was in your shop when you applied the finish?


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Lexicologist71 said:
I've just started sanding the finish on a couple of cues to which I applied several layers of Ceramithane. According to the label, you can recoat every 2 hours. I did that, but have since heard that I should limit applications to 2 per day. They were last coated about 3 days ago. While sanding them, I've noticed that some layers are visible, sorta like a Damascus steel knife. Does this mean the finish isn't yet cured? Does it mean that it didn't adhere to the previous coat? If I let them sit for another week, will I be able to continue as usual? In the process of sanding, I took a couple of thousandths off with 320 grit paper in an effort to eliminate this effect.
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A lot of finishes do not bond themselves together in a way that you can sand through layers without being able to see the layers. It is kind of like the wood grain lines you see when you taper a shaft down. It could be the method or it could just be the finish.
 
It was generally about 70. I'm working in the basement where we have a wood burning furnace. It's warm when there's a fire going, but it's not always that warm. The finish is pretty firm. I haven't actually tested it against my fingernail, but I'm pretty sure it would win at this stage. I'm hoping that in a week all layers will be harder and the 'growth ring' effect will go away.
 
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When I use finish and epoxies, I put some onto a test piece as I go for finish, leave a sample if epoxy.
That way , I have something to get finger prints on and play with instead of the product.
I have lots of scraps that I keep for this purpose.
 
The growth ring effect is just different layers of finish. It won't go away but you can spray a final coat over a perfectly smooth (320 grit) sibstrate and use it as your final finish and you will never know what layers are underneath. Just dont sand or buff through the coat you're working on and you won't get the damascus steel effect.

About the only finish where the rings don't show up are nitrocellulose laquer and shellac since both these finishes melt into the previous coats and in the end there are no layers, just a single coat. It won't be comparable to modern finishes in almost any way but it would be easy to buff out.
 
Paul Dayton said:
The growth ring effect is just different layers of finish. It won't go away but you can spray a final coat over a perfectly smooth (320 grit) sibstrate and use it as your final finish and you will never know what layers are underneath. Just dont sand or buff through the coat you're working on and you won't get the damascus steel effect.

About the only finish where the rings don't show up are nitrocellulose laquer and shellac since both these finishes melt into the previous coats and in the end there are no layers, just a single coat. It won't be comparable to modern finishes in almost any way but it would be easy to buff out.
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You don't get that effect with ceramithane. If you recoat in 1 hour the coats burn in to each other making a monolithic coverage.

Kim
 
Since he did get that effect with Ceramithane he must have not recoated at the proper time.

What do you get if you recoat 3 weeks after the last set of coats. A momolithic coat or layers?
 
Paul Dayton said:
Since he did get that effect with Ceramithane he must have not recoated at the proper time.

What do you get if you recoat 3 weeks after the last set of coats. A monolithic coat or layers?[/QUOTE



I put on 2 more coats the next day. I dry sand before putting on the next 2 coats.

I have refinished a cue weeks after the original finish. Just a sanding and put it on. Never had witness lines or de-lamination. I have used it over other water based finishes and over epoxy. Never had a problem..... just sand first.

Don't use no load sand paper. It has stearates for a release agent that can cause fish eyes.

Kim
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whammo57 said:
Paul Dayton said:
Don't use no load sand paper. It has stearates for a release agent that can cause fish eyes.

Kim
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Hi,

I love when Kim gets technical. I use the no load paper on PPG over epoxy and don't have that problem. Kim was quick to point this fact out to me when I suggested using no load paper when sanding down the Ceramithane to him when he visited my shop.

It pays to read and understand the Technical Data information about your product selection. Forewarned is forearmed.

I bet this one little detail could be why he saw the problem. And of course, temperature is the number one reason you can get varied results in finishing or laying down epoxy substrates.

If you have a control process to your methods, not only do you have to monitor your air temp and product temp. You must check the ambient temp of the cue also. It may sound a little anal but I use a infrared thermometer to check my epoxy after warming it up slightly in the microwave and check my clear coat material and the wood before doing the deed. If you are circumspect in these small details the consistency and repeatability is spot on every time.

For example, I use 4 coats of G5 applied on top of each other every 3 to 4 minutes between coats at 80 to 85 degrees to get a monolithic coating bond as was suggested to me by an engineer at west systems. By putting on the 4 coats and going .012 to .015 it allows me to flat sand without ever burning through and landing on my number before finish coat. You can take off with sanding but once you burn through you have to do the dance again.

I have not burned through in over 4 years since adding this to my procedures. I used to hate when I was sanding and looked down at the paper and saw something other than white.:barf:

JMHO

Rick G

PS. I love No Load 320 and 220. It makes my life very easy and saves a lot of denaro $$$$$$.
Click to expand...
 
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scdiveteam said:
whammo57 said:
Hi,

I love when Kim gets technical. I use the no load paper on PPG over epoxy and don't have that problem. Kim was quick to point this fact out to me when I suggested using no load paper when sanding down the Ceramithane to him when he visited my shop.

It pays to read and understand the Technical Data information about your product selection. Forewarned is forearmed.

I bet this one little detail could be why he saw the problem. And of course, temperature is the number one reason you can get varied results in finishing or laying down epoxy substrates.

If you have a control process to your methods, not only do you have to monitor your air temp and product temp. You must check the ambient temp of the cue also. It may sound a little anal but I use a infrared thermometer to check my epoxy after warming it up slightly in the microwave and check my clear coat material and the wood before doing the deed. If you are circumspect in these small details the consistency and repeatability is spot on every time.

For example, I use 4 coats of G5 applied on top of each other every 3 to 4 minutes between coats at 80 to 85 degrees to get a monolithic coating bond as was suggested to me by an engineer at west systems. By putting on the 4 coats and going .012 to .015 it allows me to flat sand without ever burning through and landing on my number before finish coat. You can take off with sanding but once you burn through you have to do the dance again.

I have not burned through in over 4 years since adding this to my procedures. I used to hate when I was sanding and looked down at the paper and saw something other than white.:barf:

JMHO

Rick G

PS. I love No Load 320 and 220. It makes my life very easy and saves a lot of denaro $$$$$$.
Click to expand...

Epoxy in microwave????:sorry: I like you, so I am going to recommend you don't do this...
Click to expand...
 
scdiveteam said:
whammo57 said:
Hi,

I love when Kim gets technical. I use the no load paper on PPG over epoxy and don't have that problem. Kim was quick to point this fact out to me when I suggested using no load paper when sanding down the Ceramithane to him when he visited my shop.

It pays to read and understand the Technical Data information about your product selection. Forewarned is forearmed.

I bet this one little detail could be why he saw the problem. And of course, temperature is the number one reason you can get varied results in finishing or laying down epoxy substrates.

If you have a control process to your methods, not only do you have to monitor your air temp and product temp. You must check the ambient temp of the cue also. It may sound a little anal but I use a infrared thermometer to check my epoxy after warming it up slightly in the microwave and check my clear coat material and the wood before doing the deed. If you are circumspect in these small details the consistency and repeatability is spot on every time.

For example, I use 4 coats of G5 applied on top of each other every 3 to 4 minutes between coats at 80 to 85 degrees to get a monolithic coating bond as was suggested to me by an engineer at west systems. By putting on the 4 coats and going .012 to .015 it allows me to flat sand without ever burning through and landing on my number before finish coat. You can take off with sanding but once you burn through you have to do the dance again.

I have not burned through in over 4 years since adding this to my procedures. I used to hate when I was sanding and looked down at the paper and saw something other than white.:barf:

JMHO

Rick G

PS. I love No Load 320 and 220. It makes my life very easy and saves a lot of denaro $$$$$$.
Click to expand...


Rick,

I use the no load for wood and it does work great.

I am going to watch my ambient temperature this winter. My work area is usually about 60 deg. I don't know how my finish is going to react to the lower temp. I might need to use a heater.

Kim
Click to expand...
 
I added coats over several days time. I've also read that I should limit my coatings to 2 per day. Any input there?
 
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