Wanted/For Sale Section to Change in New Year

Well then the other solution is to spin off the AZB forums into a separate company. Register that company outside the USA and host the forums on servers outside the USA. Then let the numbnuts sue AZB all they want to by sending letters to Zambia.

Unreal. I will be happy to donate some money to the legal fund to make this nonsense go away and get AZB set up in such a way that Jerry and Mike are NEVER personally attacked again.
 
JB Cases said:
Well then the other solution is to spin off the AZB forums into a separate company. Register that company outside the USA and host the forums on servers outside the USA. Then let the numbnuts sue AZB all they want to by sending letters to Zambia.

Unreal. I will be happy to donate some money to the legal fund to make this nonsense go away and get AZB set up in such a way that Jerry and Mike are NEVER personally attacked again.
Click to expand...

It would be far easier if we, as buyer and sellers, would step out of the dark ages of money orders and checks and into the 21st century and learn how to conduct business on the internet.

Kevin
 
kvinbrwr said:
It would be far easier if we, as buyer and sellers, would step out of the dark ages of money orders and checks and into the 21st century and learn how to conduct business on the internet.

Kevin
Click to expand...

But there are still plenty of people who fear dishing out information like that online.

I never used to be one of those people until someone hacked into my PayPal account and attempted to empty both my checking AND savings account a few months ago. It was only by sheer chance that I happened to check in on PayPal that afternoon and noticed a few hefty AND unauthorized transactions.

And frankly, the drive to the bank for the money order is a lot less of a headache than dealing with PayPal's dispute center, the bank, etc..
 
mia said:
But there are still plenty of people who fear dishing out information like that online.

I never used to be one of those people until someone hacked into my PayPal account and attempted to empty both my checking AND savings account a few months ago. It was only by sheer chance that I happened to check in on PayPal that afternoon and noticed a few hefty AND unauthorized transactions.

And frankly, the drive to the bank for the money order is a lot less of a headache than dealing with PayPal's dispute center, the bank, etc..
Click to expand...

I've never dealt with PayPal's dispute center, so I wouldn't know. If I have a problem with an internet purchase I dispute it with my credit card co (online it takes about 30 seconds) and let them sort it out while I go about my other business. I never had anyone hack my PayPal account either, but I'm pretty careful about who I give my info to.

I'd say to each his own, but the old style of doing business in a new style environment is killing this forum.

Its like none of us are willing to learn how to practice safe sex because the way mom and dad did it is good enough for us. Now the forum has STD and their solution is abstinence.

I get the old style of doing business, I really do. If I tell a guy "I own it" I own it. I do what I say and I say what I do. And I know there are PLENTY of guys on this forum that are just that way, do it on a handshake kinda guys. However, the forum has grown and is growing everyday. We can preach "be careful" "check the feedback" until we are blue in the face, but people are going to join and do business and get burned if the burn is available. That's a fact of life, and another fact of life is that the scams are avoidable. Certainly one of the ways to avoid the scams is to stop people from doing business (and unfortunately that seems to be the solution the frustrated mods are leaning to), but its not the only way.


Kevin
 
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kvinbrwr said:
It would be far easier if we, as buyer and sellers, would step out of the dark ages of money orders and checks and into the 21st century and learn how to conduct business on the internet.

Kevin
Click to expand...

Well, that isn't going to happen any time soon. And even if you do it the way you suggest that doesn't always mean that the buyer is protected. Nor does it mean that no one is going to get sued.

I mean if done your way and the buyer disputes the transaction and the money is taken away from the seller and given back to the buyer who is to say that the buyer isn't the one defrauding the seller? In that case the seller could sue the buyer and AZB even if they really had no grounds to involve AZB.

All I can see is that it does seem to work that thousands and thousands of forums operate classifieds and they all have big disclaimers that they are not responsible for deals gone bad. Obviously the existence of all these places means that they are not being harassed legally or those marketplaces would not exist.

You can't sue the owner of a flea market for the deals that go down there. You can't sue Allen Hopkins because someone got screwed on a cue deal. You can't sue Billiards Digest because someone got screwed by an advertiser.

This is all enshrined in our law and precedent for hundreds of years. Ebay didn't decide to do something about the fraud because they were legally at risk, they did it because it became too much of a hindrance to operating the market place when the buyers no longer felt safe.

I think the advice you have given here many times is rock solid for 99% of transactions and would stop most sellers from even thinking about trying to defraud a buyer. But that has nothing to do with keeping AZB's principals from getting caught up in the bad deals when someone decides to groundlessly sue them.

So do what the big boys do, put up a wall that the average person can't climb over.
 
kvinbrwr said:
It would be far easier if we, as buyer and sellers, would step out of the dark ages of money orders and checks and into the 21st century and learn how to conduct business on the internet.

Kevin
Click to expand...

Ummm, US Postal Service "Money Orders" are one of the only ways to protect a buyer from a scam. Because it's a federal offence if someone scams using a postal money order.... Much more of a determent for those living within the US, not to try any monkey business....

Checks, I agree, should not be used.......

Paypal is what I use, although it has its flaws for sure, it still is one of the most convienent ways to transfer funds from one to another....
 
Guerra Cues said:
John,
I was just relaying some I formation. I don't know more details. I am Jerry might chime in again. Based on what I wrote before it would be a good idea to post ideas and stop the what ifs.
Let's brainstorm and post your thoughts and some possible solutions. Don't we have lawyers around here?
I know at least 2 around here: Deadon and lawman88 I think?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Kind of hard to think of a solution when I don't exactly know what the problem is. I know they can't discuss open suits but more info would help.

Can you accurately define the problem without saying anything to upset Legal?
 
pletho said:
Ummm, US Postal Service "Money Orders" are one of the only ways to protect a buyer from a scam. Because it's a federal offence if someone scams using a postal money order.... Much more of a determent for those living within the US, not to try any monkey business....

Checks, I agree, should not be used.......

Paypal is what I use, although it has its flaws for sure, it still is one of the most convienent ways to transfer funds from one to another....
Click to expand...

Technically it's a felony to commit fraud using the internet. It's called wire fraud.

Postal money orders can be counterfeited. Checks can be disputed up to a year after they have been written and cashed.

Kevin's solution is actually a pretty safe way to do it as long as you are truly and fully aware of your credit card's policies regarding disputes.

Pay the seller ONLY with a credit card and if your card issuer is pretty good about protecting the user then you are pretty safe as they will credit you back and dispute the charge with the seller on your behalf.

I don't agree that using a paypal account funded by a credit card is the best way to go. While you could technically dispute the charge on the card that paypal makes when withdrawing the money it puts another layer on top of the transaction that can get funny. If you have the card issuer take the money back from Paypal then paypal will come after YOU for it not the person you paid.

The solution is to ask the seller to send you an request for payment. When that comes in you pay it with a credit card NOT through your paypal account, not using your paypal account, not by having paypal automatically withdraw the money from your card. You are paying not paypal to paypal. You are paying credit card to paypal who is acting as the card processor FOR the seller. THEN you have eliminated paypal as the intermediary agent for you and the seller and jsut reduced them to acting for the seller. Thus if you have to dispute the charge then your bank takes it from paypal who takes it from the seller's account.
 
pletho said:
Ummm, US Postal Service "Money Orders" are one of the only ways to protect a buyer from a scam. Because it's a federal offence if someone scams using a postal money order.... Much more of a determent for those living within the US, not to try any monkey business....

Checks, I agree, should not be used.......

Paypal is what I use, although it has its flaws for sure, it still is one of the most convienent ways to transfer funds from one to another....
Click to expand...

PayPal is beyond convenient. If it's used properly its 100% dead nuts safe.
1/2 the guys that got burned in the hang-em-high fiasco got burned with Postal Money Orders, scammers love them.

Get scammed with a Postal Money order, be out the money while you fill out forms and get dumped into a huge system where you can't get an answer while you are out the money. Get scammed on a proper PayPal transaction, take 30 seconds to dispute the charge with your credit card company and the amount is held in suspense, no bill, no interest, until PayPal proves to your credit card company that you received the goods. If PayPal can't prove that (because you didn't receive the goods) the charge disappears.

Kevin
 
JB Cases said:
Technically it's a felony to commit fraud using the internet. It's called wire fraud.

Postal money orders can be counterfeited. Checks can be disputed up to a year after they have been written and cashed.

Kevin's solution is actually a pretty safe way to do it as long as you are truly and fully aware of your credit card's policies regarding disputes.

Pay the seller ONLY with a credit card and if your card issuer is pretty good about protecting the user then you are pretty safe as they will credit you back and dispute the charge with the seller on your behalf.

I don't agree that using a paypal account funded by a credit card is the best way to go. While you could technically dispute the charge on the card that paypal makes when withdrawing the money it puts another layer on top of the transaction that can get funny. If you have the card issuer take the money back from Paypal then paypal will come after YOU for it not the person you paid.

The solution is to ask the seller to send you an request for payment. When that comes in you pay it with a credit card NOT through your paypal account, not using your paypal account, not by having paypal automatically withdraw the money from your card. You are paying not paypal to paypal. You are paying credit card to paypal who is acting as the card processor FOR the seller. THEN you have eliminated paypal as the intermediary agent for you and the seller and jsut reduced them to acting for the seller. Thus if you have to dispute the charge then your bank takes it from paypal who takes it from the seller's account.
Click to expand...

My point is that Money Orders counterfeited or not, are a felony.....

Also, Paypal as mentioned if you read my post has its flaws.....

Wire fraud may or may not be easy to prove but a counterfeit money order or a scam done while using a real or counterfeit money order is pretty much an open and shut case....

Don't want to banter, just making my opinions that Money Orders are not outdated, checks are and Paypal is by far the most convienent way to make a transaction online with pool cues...

Of course using a Credit Card on paypal, is much safer, as you not only have paypal as backer but the Credid Card issuer also....
 
JB Cases said:
Technically it's a felony to commit fraud using the internet. It's called wire fraud.

Postal money orders can be counterfeited. Checks can be disputed up to a year after they have been written and cashed.

Kevin's solution is actually a pretty safe way to do it as long as you are truly and fully aware of your credit card's policies regarding disputes.

Pay the seller ONLY with a credit card and if your card issuer is pretty good about protecting the user then you are pretty safe as they will credit you back and dispute the charge with the seller on your behalf.

I don't agree that using a paypal account funded by a credit card is the best way to go. While you could technically dispute the charge on the card that paypal makes when withdrawing the money it puts another layer on top of the transaction that can get funny. If you have the card issuer take the money back from Paypal then paypal will come after YOU for it not the person you paid.

The solution is to ask the seller to send you an request for payment. When that comes in you pay it with a credit card NOT through your paypal account, not using your paypal account, not by having paypal automatically withdraw the money from your card. You are paying not paypal to paypal. You are paying credit card to paypal who is acting as the card processor FOR the seller. THEN you have eliminated paypal as the intermediary agent for you and the seller and jsut reduced them to acting for the seller. Thus if you have to dispute the charge then your bank takes it from paypal who takes it from the seller's account.
Click to expand...

John

Not to turn this into a PayPal symposium, been there done that. But, in the case of a non-delivery dispute, PayPal has no recourse against the buyer unless they can prove delivery. Credit Card Companies have to let their buyers win ALL non-delivery disputes, all Credit card Companies make that guarantee (at least I have never seen one that doesn't). PayPal has to sign the CC Companies paper, PayPal needs MC, AMEX.VISA, not the other way around. Credit Card Companies make that guarantee to their users and in turn PayPal has had to agree to that in order to do business with the providers. PayPal has already boilerplate agreed when they made their agreements with the CC issuers that all non-delivery disputes with out on-line trackable proof of delivery will be decided in favor of the buyer. They can't go back on the buyer, they chase the seller.

Kevin
 
kvinbrwr said:
I've never dealt with PayPal's dispute center, so I wouldn't know. If I have a problem with an internet purchase I dispute it with my credit card co (online it takes about 30 seconds) and let them sort it out while I go about my other business. I never had anyone hack my PayPal account either, but I'm pretty careful about who I give my info to.

I'd say to each his own, but the old style of doing business in a new style environment is killing this forum.

Its like none of us are willing to learn how to practice safe sex because the way mom and dad did it is good enough for us. Now the forum has STD and their solution is abstinence.



Kevin
Click to expand...

Kev,

To each their own. No doubt it's great when you're the buyer. But the only two times I've ever tried to be scammed was through Paypal and me being the seller. While that was a time ago, let me tell you that dealing with the hassle on the seller's end was excrutiating! They didn't care about you (seller) then....and I'm sure it's even less now. Hard to fade for a small time seller. Still, I'll transact with someone via paypal if I know them personally or they have a great history here on the board and/or excellent references. My motto is trust is earned.

Imo, no 'style' of doing biz is killing the forum.....the nits are. You would think as small as this cue world is that could never equate to a $1k a day legal problem. Sounds to me like bigger things are at issue.

Let's hope this gets resolved in a way that is wise, fair and won't dump on this industry. Intended or not, AZ has become a place where the little guy (be it cuemaker, casemaker, supplier, nick-knack seller, etc.) could get his foot in the door. If that dries up, I'm afraid the ramifications might not be pleasant for some of these guys. Let's not forget that it takes everyone to make up an industry. And in this economy ours is tenuous at best.

Sean
 
kvinbrwr said:
PayPal is beyond convenient. If it's used properly its 100% dead nuts safe.
Click to expand...


Disagree. See my earlier post re: my PayPal being hacked. PayPal doesn't magically make everyone's money any safer.

As for the point of all of this... if you think Money Orders versus online payments via sites like PayPal is what's causing issues here on AZ, you are mistaken. It may be just one small issue, but let's face it...


The Wanted/For Sale section has become like a yard sale for some people here. I've seen everything from watches, iPhones, Wii consoles, etc..for sale/trade. There are cuemakers on this forum who would have ZERO clientelle if it weren't for AZ. No one would know who they are. But they find a home on AZ, exploit the sh*t out of it, litter the site with their cues, then go MIA for months at a time. And these guys are flooding the airwaves so to speak.

And while I agree with people who say "Only one bump from the OP a day", lets face it... how many times do we see "I can't believe this is still here" crap from the sellers buddies?? Dealers bumping 12 threads every single day, selling 12 different products???

The Wanted/For Sale section has become a flea market for many. And simple disclaimers or having everyone sign up through PayPal isn't gonna make all of that just go away.
 
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kvinbrwr said:
PayPal is beyond convenient. If it's used properly its 100% dead nuts safe.
1/2 the guys that got burned in the hang-em-high fiasco got burned with Postal Money Orders, scammers love them.

Get scammed with a Postal Money order, be out the money while you fill out forms and get dumped into a huge system where you can't get an answer while you are out the money. Get scammed on a proper PayPal transaction, take 30 seconds to dispute the charge with your credit card company and the amount is held in suspense, no bill, no interest, until PayPal proves to your credit card company that you received the goods. If PayPal can't prove that (because you didn't receive the goods) the charge disappears.

Kevin
Click to expand...

Are you sure it was US Postal Money Orders, and not Western Union or some other type of money orders?
 
cueaddicts said:
Kev,

To each their own. No doubt it's great when you're the buyer. But the only two times I've ever tried to be scammed was through Paypal and me being the seller. While that was a time ago, let me tell you that dealing with the hassle on the seller's end was excrutiating! They didn't care about you (seller) then....and I'm sure it's even less now. Hard to fade for a small time seller. Still, I'll transact with someone via paypal if I know them personally or they have a great history here on the board and/or excellent references. My motto is trust is earned.

Imo, no 'style' of doing biz is killing the forum.....the nits are. You would think as small as this cue world is that could never equate to a $1k a day legal problem. Sounds to me like bigger things are at issue.

Let's hope this gets resolved in a way that is wise, fair and won't dump on this industry. Intended or not, AZ has become a place where the little guy (be it cuemaker, casemaker, supplier, nick-knack seller, etc.) could get his foot in the door. If that dries up, I'm afraid the ramifications might not be pleasant for some of these guys. Let's not forget that it takes everyone to make up an industry. And in this economy ours is tenuous at best.

Sean
Click to expand...

Sean

I hear you. I do plenty of business with PayPal, both as a buyer and seller and have never lost a dime. There is a perfectly safe way to use it in both directions, you just have to know how. PayPal will insure you up to 5K (more for some) as a seller if you do it their way. Again, its a matter of education.

Education vs abstinence. This is a safe sex symposium!

Thanks

Kevin
 
mia said:
Disagree. See my earlier post re: my PayPal being hacked. PayPal doesn't magically make everyone's money that much safer.

As for the point of all of this... if you think Money Orders versus online payments via sites like PayPal is what's causing issues here on AZ, you are mistaken. It may be just one small issue, but let's face it...


The Wanted/For Sale section has become like a yard sale for some people here. I've seen everything from watches, iPhones, Wii consoles, etc..for sale/trade. There are cuemakers on this forum who would have ZERO clientelle if it weren't for AZ. No one would know who they are. But they find a home on AZ, exploit the sh*t out of it, litter the site with their cues, then go MIA for months at a time. And these guys are flooding the airwaves so to speak.

And while I agree with people who say "Only one bump from the OP a day", lets face it... how many times do we see "I can't believe this is still here" crap from the sellers buddies?? Dealers bumping 12 threads every single day, selling 12 different products???

The Wanted/For Sale section has become a flea market for many. And simple disclaimers or having everyone sign up through PayPal isn't gonna make all of that just go away.
Click to expand...

I dont think that trading an item of yours for a cue, is a problem or is the problem on this forum, as a matter of fact it should be allowed.....

Bartering one item for another is a great thing.....

But just to come on here and sell something you have NON pool related and not looking to trade for billiard items should NOT be allowed for sure...
 
mia said:
....There are cuemakers on this forum who would have ZERO clientelle if it weren't for AZ. No one would know who they are. But they find a home on AZ, exploit the sh*t out of it, litter the site with their cues, then go MIA for months at a time. And these guys are flooding the airwaves so to speak.....
Click to expand...

Sure, these guys shouldn't do that, but you know what, fledgling cuemakers trying to sell their wares here are in the industry. They buy wood, supplies, tools, etc., etc., etc. All of this makes up the whole. Ask Hightower, Barringer, Atlas, etc. if they don't want these kind of guys buying their products. That's why a solution that *includes* rather than blanket *excludes* is very important here, at least in my eyes.

Even the established makers benefit from everyone seeing their new cues and cases here on AZ. It's not just the guys tinkering or starting out.

This issue is way bigger than a handful or so of scammers....
 
mia said:
Disagree. See my earlier post re: my PayPal being hacked. PayPal doesn't magically make everyone's money any safer.

As for the point of all of this... if you think Money Orders versus online payments via sites like PayPal is what's causing issues here on AZ, you are mistaken. It may be just one small issue, but let's face it...


The Wanted/For Sale section has become like a yard sale for some people here. I've seen everything from watches, iPhones, Wii consoles, etc..for sale/trade. There are cuemakers on this forum who would have ZERO clientelle if it weren't for AZ. No one would know who they are. But they find a home on AZ, exploit the sh*t out of it, litter the site with their cues, then go MIA for months at a time. And these guys are flooding the airwaves so to speak.

And while I agree with people who say "Only one bump from the OP a day", lets face it... how many times do we see "I can't believe this is still here" crap from the sellers buddies?? Dealers bumping 12 threads every single day, selling 12 different products???

The Wanted/For Sale section has become a flea market for many. And simple disclaimers or having everyone sign up through PayPal isn't gonna make all of that just go away.
Click to expand...

There's a huge difference between YOUR PayPal getting hacked and PayPal getting hacked. Your PayPal getting hacked has to be the result of some unsafe practice by yourself. I realize there are a lot of scams out there, again, education vs abstinence.

You can't be saying that the thread bumps are what has Jerry weary of court costs and time are you ?

Thanks

Kevin
 
cueaddicts said:
Sure, these guys shouldn't do that, but you know what, fledgling cuemakers trying to sell their wares here are in the industry. They buy wood, supplies, tools, etc., etc., etc. All of this makes up the whole. Ask Hightower, Barringer, Atlas, etc. if they don't want these kind of guys buying their products. That's why a solution that *includes* rather than blanket *excludes* is very important here, at least in my eyes.

Even the established makers benefit from everyone seeing their new cues and cases here on AZ. It's not just the guys tinkering or starting out.

This issue is way bigger than a handful or so of scammers....
Click to expand...

Sean

That's the frustrating part, we are just guessing at the issue. It can't just be the scammers because if it is, Jerry's first post doesn't make a lick of sense.

Kevin
 
I got to say, stopping Brent Hartman or Rusty Melton from showcasing and selling their wares her on AZ cannot be the answer to one single concern.

Kevin
 
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