Tips of english or stroke?

LAMas,

Something to think about is what you said about the cue ball circumference and how the tip may make better contact with a swipe. This is similar to what I was saying about the BHE being more effective with the crossover stroke. If you start in the center of the cue ball with BHE, you move out to the edge of the cue ball to finish. More chance to miscue and you are using the edge of the tip on your follow through.

Starting at the opposite side of the cue ball allows you to finish closer to center and use more of the middle of your tip. The alignment for spin left or right is the same. You just start in a different spot. It's magic! And everybody knows magic isn't real. :grin:

Best,
Mike
 
Mikjary said:
Here is a great stroke by Mike Massey. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbnxQWe_OTg&feature=player_detailpage#t=132s

Notice the slow motion movement of the back hand. Many people call this a wrist snap. There is a lot more going on than just wrist movement. Also, watch where the cue finishes as a result of the back hand position change.

Best,
Mike
Click to expand...

If I'm not mistaken, he's dropping his elbow "before" making contact with the cue ball. That's how his cue stays so level. In fact it appears that as the cue stick goes through the cue ball, it actually rises, rather than falls to the table.
 
Mikjary said:
Here is a great stroke by Mike Massey. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbnxQWe_OTg&feature=player_detailpage#t=132s

Notice the slow motion movement of the back hand. Many people call this a wrist snap. There is a lot more going on than just wrist movement. Also, watch where the cue finishes as a result of the back hand position change.
Click to expand...
Here's another video with super-slow-motion footage:

After I filmed this with Mike, he was very surprised that his elbow didn't drop until after the hit.

Regards,
Dave
 
dr_dave said:
Here's another video with super-slow-motion footage:

After I filmed this with Mike, he was very surprised that his elbow didn't drop until after the hit.

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link. My point is clearer here with the back hand movement. As his arm starts forward, he sets up his back hand for a flexing or gripping of the cue by opening the hand and letting it remain stationary as the cue starts forward. It seems as if he is breaking his wrist, but it is mainly staying in place. The arm is accelerating the cue and moves upward to allow for the hand to lift the back of the cue.

In a power golf, hockey, baseball, or tennis swing/stroke, the main force is delivered by the body core and legs. The finish is with the arms and hands. In pool, we take the body (except on the break) out of the technique and try to isolate the arm.

In parallel, the arm in pool can be said to be the same power generator that the body is to other sports. And the hand/wrist is like the arms finishing the swing/stroke. Studying the finishing movements on power strokes is the key to understanding what the differences might be between a Mike Massey stroke and the advanced player's stroke.

Best,
Mike
 
dr_dave said:
Here's another video with super-slow-motion footage:

After I filmed this with Mike, he was very surprised that his elbow didn't drop until after the hit.

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...

Thanks Dave.
It looks like the tip of his cue is dropping immediatly to the cloth upon contact to the OB,
Do you have a slow mo side view shot of the tip contacting the CB for a/that monster draw shot?
 
LAMas said:
Thanks Dave.
It looks like the tip of his cue is dropping immediatly to the cloth upon contact to the OB,
Do you have a slow mo side view shot of the tip contacting the CB for a/that monster draw shot?
Click to expand...

At 2:24 it is visible, but tough to really get a good look.

Best,
Mike
 
LAMas said:
Thanks Dave.
It looks like the tip of his cue is dropping immediately to the cloth upon contact to the OB,
Click to expand...
He is aiming very low on the CB and the cue is elevated some, and his grip hand comes up in a pendulum motion. All three of these factors drive the cue tip to the cloth after CB contact.

LAMas said:
Do you have a slow mo side view shot of the tip contacting the CB for a/that monster draw shot?
Click to expand...
HSV A.38 shows an example of what happens to the tip immediately (a few milliseconds) after impact with the CB (it deflects down and back up again) before the tip follows through down to the cloth.

Regards,
Dave
 
dr_dave said:
Here's another video with super-slow-motion footage:

After I filmed this with Mike, he was very surprised that his elbow didn't drop until after the hit.

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...

The slow-motion video is very nice but as you say in the film, Mike raises his elbow on the final backswing but does drop his elbow prior to hitting the cueball. Maybe this just gives him a little more power. He drops his elbow the second time and it appears that it is after he makes contact with the cue ball.

I'm going to the table to try raising my elbow on the final backswing...\
 
dr_dave said:
He is aiming very low on the CB and the cue is elevated some, and his grip hand comes up in a pendulum motion. All three of these factors drive the cue tip to the cloth after CB contact.

HSV A.38 shows an example of what happens to the tip immediately (a few milliseconds) after impact with the CB (it deflects down and back up again) before the tip follows through down to the cloth.

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...
Thanks again.
As I thought, the tip grabs the circumference of the "CB" and bends down to the cloth as it rides/geared to a spot on the circumference and the rises after separation.
:thumbup:

The mass of the "CB" is in play and the "CB" doesn't seem to squirt up as it would with left or right english where the weight of the CB is born by the cloth.

Are there any slo mo shots of swiping across the circumference of the CB?
 
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JoeyA said:
The slow-motion video is very nice but as you say in the film, Mike raises his elbow on the final backswing but does drop his elbow prior to hitting the cueball. Maybe this just gives him a little more power.
Click to expand...
I personally don't think he is getting much (if any) extra power from this small up and down motion before contact. I think the small down motion is what he as learned to do automatically to compensate for the slight up motion during the backswing (which I think is unintentional); otherwise, the tip wouldn't hit the CB where he is aiming. In other words, I think the result of his stroke would be very similar (if not identical) if he had kept his elbow entirely still before tip contact, but I don't have "scientific" proof.

JoeyA said:
He drops his elbow the second time and it appears that it is after he makes contact with the cue ball.
Click to expand...
To me, it is totally clear from the video that the the large elbow drop occurs well after the CB is gone.

JoeyA said:
I'm going to the table to try raising my elbow on the final backswing...\
Click to expand...
Don't hurt yourself. :D

Regards,
Dave
 
LAMas said:
Thanks again.
As I thought, the tip grabs the circumference of the "CB" and bends down to the cloth as it rides/geared to a spot on the circumference and the rises after separation.
:thumbup:
Click to expand...
I think the separation might occur a little sooner than you think. Momentum (from the initial hit and rotation) drives the tip down quite a bit after separation. For more info, see the following article:
"Squirt - Part I: introduction" (Billiards Digest, August, 2007)​
and HSV A.76a.

LAMas said:
The mass of the "CB" is in play and the "CB" doesn't seem to squirt up as it would with left or right english where the weight of the CB is born by the cloth.
Click to expand...
The cue elevation drives the CB down into the table. The up-squirt reduces this effect some, but not enough to lift the CB.

LAMas said:
Are there any slo mo shots of swiping across the circumference of the CB?
Click to expand...
Again, see HSV A.76a. That's the best I've seen.

Regards,
Dave
 
JoeyA said:
The slow-motion video is very nice but as you say in the film, Mike raises his elbow on the final backswing but does drop his elbow prior to hitting the cueball. Maybe this just gives him a little more power. He drops his elbow the second time and it appears that it is after he makes contact with the cue ball.

I'm going to the table to try raising my elbow on the final backswing...\
Click to expand...

Earl and Johnny do this, too. I have tried for a while not to do this, but after I watched others doing it I stopped worrying about it. Don't know yet if it helps or hurts. :grin:

Best,
Mike
 
dr_dave said:
I think the separation might occur a little sooner than you think. Momentum (from the initial hit and rotation) drives the tip down quite a bit after separation. For more info, see the following article:
"Squirt - Part I: introduction" (Billiards Digest, August, 2007)​
and HSV A.76a.

The cue elevation drives the CB down into the table. The up-squirt reduces this effect some, but not enough to lift the CB.

Again, see HSV A.76a. That's the best I've seen.

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...

Classic

The tip is being compressed and distorted against the CB. It looks like a thick soft tip. I wonder what a thin hard tip compression would look like?
Thanks.
:thumbup:
 
dr_dave said:
I personally don't think he is getting much (if any) extra power from this small up and down motion before contact. I think the small down motion is what he as learned to do automatically to compensate for the slight up motion during the backswing (which I think is unintentional); otherwise, the tip wouldn't hit the CB where he is aiming. In other words, I think the result of his stroke would be very similar (if not identical) if he had kept his elbow entirely still before tip contact, but I don't have "scientific" proof.

To me, it is totally clear from the video that the the large elbow drop occurs well after the CB is gone.

Don't hurt yourself. :D

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...


I agree that the larger elbow drop occurs on the second elbow drop.

I will be careful.

You take care of yourself when visiting the family down here. The banditos appear to be looking for some Christmas money.
 
Mikjary said:
Earl and Johnny do this, too. I have tried for a while not to do this, but after I watched others doing it I stopped worrying about it. Don't know yet if it helps or hurts. :grin:
Click to expand...
Some people raise their elbow on the backstroke, some people lower it (e.g., with a piston stroke), and some people keep it still (e.g., with a pendulum or "J" stroke). IMO, it doesn't matter much as long as you can consistently return the tip to the spot on the CB that you want to hit. I personally think this is easier for most people to do with a still elbow; but obviously, with enough practice, people can be successful with all and any technique variations.

Regards,
Dave
 
dr_dave said:
I think the separation might occur a little sooner than you think. Momentum (from the initial hit and rotation) drives the tip down quite a bit after separation. For more info, see the following article:
"Squirt - Part I: introduction" (Billiards Digest, August, 2007)​
and HSV A.76a.

The cue elevation drives the CB down into the table. The up-squirt reduces this effect some, but not enough to lift the CB.

Again, see HSV A.76a. That's the best I've seen.

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...

I'd be interested in seeing the crossover of the tip from one side of the cue ball to the other when applying english. I noticed Raj and Shane did it this weekend. Raj did it more and also grips the cue like Mike Massey.

Most video evidence is with a straight cue path through the ball. The draw shots show a slightly longer tip grab as the cue swipes down to the cloth. This is obviously imparting the most spin and should translate to effects when using side english. As LAMas said, side spin may allow for less resistance to the tip and it may be easier to miscue.

Best,
Mike
 
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