Tips of english or stroke?

JoeyA said:
Except for the possibility of the cue tip making multiple contact with the cue ball during the single stroke, which can be seen on some slow-motion video but seldom observable by the human eye.
Click to expand...

So far as I know, multiple hits occur only on miscues and double-hit fouls. With a normal cue stick and anything close to a normal stroke, it is pretty much impossible to hit the cue ball twice unless there is an object ball close by to stop it for a second hit.
 
Speaking of getting unusual results with unusual strokes, here's a video of Efren jumping an object ball with a nearly level stroke. Skip to 0:49 to see the shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KolB_a5ewzk

I realize this doesn't add anything to the discussion, but I thought some of you guys following this thread might get a kick out of it.
 
TASK said:
Speaking of getting unusual results with unusual strokes, here's a video of Efren jumping an object ball with a nearly level stroke. Skip to 0:49 to see the shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KolB_a5ewzk

I realize this doesn't add anything to the discussion, but I thought some of you guys following this thread might get a kick out of it.
Click to expand...


That is pretty incredible. He's hitting the top portion of the cue ball since the cue ball is so close to the rail. Thanks for posting the link.
I'll try that shot soon.

Have to give some credit to Mary Avina.................................
 
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Thanks to all who supplied great evidence and trashed my post! :grin: This is how a thread should operate. Knowledgable posters using logic and physical evidence to support a countering argument. What? No, I'm not crazy and happy to be told I'm wrong. If I'm wrong, then maybe I need to back up my ideas better.

What if I brought up another point? On the crossover stroke, say for right english, you start by cueing on the left side of the cue ball. As you cross over the cue ball center and finish your stroke, you apply right spin. Even though you started on the left side, you apply right english. I'll repeat that. You started on the left side and get right english.

The consensus is that the cue tip contact times are all similar despite the stroke that is used. The cue ball moves away from the tip at contact. There is no extended contact time when using a smoother stroke. If I contact the cue ball initially on the left side and stroke across the cue ball to the right side, the cue ball should already be on its way. How am I still able to apply right english?

Could it be that the actual contact is at an angle to the right side when the tip hits the cue ball?

Best,
Mike
 
Mikjary said:
Thanks to all who supplied great evidence and trashed my post! :grin: This is how a thread should operate. Knowledgable posters using logic and physical evidence to support a countering argument. What? No, I'm not crazy and happy to be told I'm wrong. If I'm wrong, then maybe I need to back up my ideas better.

What if I brought up another point? On the crossover stroke, say for right english, you start by cueing on the left side of the cue ball. As you cross over the cue ball center and finish your stroke, you apply right spin. Even though you started on the left side, you apply right english. I'll repeat that. You started on the left side and get right english.

The consensus is that the cue tip contact times are all similar despite the stroke that is used. The cue ball moves away from the tip at contact. There is no extended contact time when using a smoother stroke. If I contact the cue ball initially on the left side and stroke across the cue ball to the right side, the cue ball should already be on its way. How am I still able to apply right english?

Could it be that the actual contact is at an angle to the right side when the tip hits the cue ball?
Best,
Mike
Click to expand...

Yes its the same thing as the center changing as you cange elevation of the butt. Attacking the ball from the left changes the center left to right. Another argument against swiping. But??? I think it comes back to hitting farther out than we're comfortable seeing. Like I said days ago ultra high looks like a miscue. It isn't.

Excuse me for saying this but it seems most pool players don't visit the extreme limits. Probably because its not necessary 99.9999% of the time. There's other easier and more reliable techniques to get there.

That being said yall should explore the limits. Nobody has taken my challenge with max English.. How come?
 
JB Cases said:
I don't agree. I understand your point and on paper it seems like this would be true.

But the other day I did a simple experiment, and let me emphasize simple.

I put the ball as diagrammed and tried to spin it enough to hit near the first diamond.

CueTable Help



Using a fairly level cue and both backhand english and conventional shifted english it was difficult for me to hit the diamond with most shots ending up about halfway between the first and second diamonds. Except with elevation and a slower speed but that was essentially a gentle masse'

Using a swiping motion where I would start out addressing the ball with left and make the tip come across to the right I was able to hit below the first diamond consistently.

Based on this very simple and quick test I would say that swiping imparts more spin. Granted, this initial observation in an uncontrolled environment is not proof but it does make me think it's worth investigating. And unless Dr. Dave has a high speed video disproving it I will believe for the time being that swiping increases spin.
Click to expand...


3kushn said:
I think you should test these stroke techniques across the short rail to reduce the effects of such a long shot. Put the ball on the spot and see what it takes to get past a 3 diamonds spread.
Click to expand...

I think he means this jb
 
TASK said:
Speaking of getting unusual results with unusual strokes, here's a video of Efren jumping an object ball with a nearly level stroke. Skip to 0:49 to see the shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KolB_a5ewzk

I realize this doesn't add anything to the discussion, but I thought some of you guys following this thread might get a kick out of it.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the clip.

Efren did get the CB up off of the table and hit the OB (not jumped over it) and got the CB to to move all over after impact.

He was stroking down on the CB above "center" but appeared to "swipe" it downward and under to get it to leave the table on it's way to the OB.
 
LAMas said:
Efren did get the CB up off of the table and hit the OB (not jumped over it) and got the CB to to move all over after impact.
Click to expand...

I suppose my description of the shot was worded rather poorly. Thank you for the clarification.
 
cookie man said:
So Mike, Do we get the rest of the story?
Click to expand...

Dave, I was hoping to get some thoughts on applying BHE and how it applies to this crossover stroke. 3kushn brought up a point about swiping the cue ball. Does it add more spin because of the attack angle?

I think how much and what part of the tip hitting the cue ball is what adds to the stroke. Like the sweet part of the bat or golf club. The angle of the stroke is what allows this to happen. With extreme english, we are hitting the cue ball with the outside of our tip. There is the chance for a miscue. We hit more of the center of the tip with any BHE type of stroke.

All BHE strokes rely on our ability to control or estimate the amount of spin needed. We can really go to automatic and calculate the stroke we will use as we are actually doing it. This fine tuning is the original idea for this thread. I've tried to present actual working experience on my part and other examples of how a stroke is used rather than measurng tips.

This is not saying using tips to estimate a stroke isn't necessary. On the contrary, it's a baseline to build off of to make subtle changes one way or the other. My point is that as our game progresses, we go to automatic with using spin. We don't have to think about how to do it. We only have to think about how much we need for a particular shot and the idea of how many tips becomes a concept instead of a physical movement.

I would like to hear more about using BHE from people who use it. I use it in small doses. I don't realize it until it happens. Then I notice it. I just think about what I need from the cue ball and during the stroke I sometimes have a spasm and add spin to the cue ball. No conscious control on my part.

I can increase the amount of spin by using the crossover stroke, or by "digging into" the cue ball with the stroke I previously mentioned. If we try either one of these methods, we will find an interesting amount of spin we didn't realize was available to us. Watch videos of the top players and notice the back hand movements and follow through. On extreme draw, Larry Nevel's cue finishes high. Elbow drop? Buddy, Corey and Larry all do the same things for spin with their strokes. And they are some of the best strokes out there.


Best,
Mike
 
Mikjary said:
Dave, I was hoping to get some thoughts on applying BHE and how it applies to this crossover stroke. 3kushn brought up a point about swiping the cue ball. Does it add more spin because of the attack angle?

I think how much and what part of the tip hitting the cue ball is what adds to the stroke. Like the sweet part of the bat or golf club. The angle of the stroke is what allows this to happen. With extreme english, we are hitting the cue ball with the outside of our tip. There is the chance for a miscue. We hit more of the center of the tip with any BHE type of stroke.

All BHE strokes rely on our ability to control or estimate the amount of spin needed. We can really go to automatic and calculate the stroke we will use as we are actually doing it. This fine tuning is the original idea for this thread. I've tried to present actual working experience on my part and other examples of how a stroke is used rather than measurng tips.

This is not saying using tips to estimate a stroke isn't necessary. On the contrary, it's a baseline to build off of to make subtle changes one way or the other. My point is that as our game progresses, we go to automatic with using spin. We don't have to think about how to do it. We only have to think about how much we need for a particular shot and the idea of how many tips becomes a concept instead of a physical movement.

I would like to hear more about using BHE from people who use it. I use it in small doses. I don't realize it until it happens. Then I notice it. I just think about what I need from the cue ball and during the stroke I sometimes have a spasm and add spin to the cue ball. No conscious control on my part.

I can increase the amount of spin by using the crossover stroke, or by "digging into" the cue ball with the stroke I previously mentioned. If we try either one of these methods, we will find an interesting amount of spin we didn't realize was available to us. Watch videos of the top players and notice the back hand movements and follow through. On extreme draw, Larry Nevel's cue finishes high. Elbow drop? Buddy, Corey and Larry all do the same things for spin with their strokes. And they are some of the best strokes out there.


Best,
Mike
Click to expand...
I don't see many top players that Don't drop their elbow. At least most of the time. Very light shots it may not appear.

So lets look at a couple of folks considered to have great strokes AND mechanics.

Pay attention to the elbow and where the tip finishes after follow through on this one with Buddy Hall. Notice the tip is Not "seeking the cloth"
@2:20 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpUhs49VF7s

Blomdahl @2:00
Ceulemans @3:40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEv8G8bJqgE&feature=related

The Ceulemans shot has a rising tip to lengthen the angle. Instructors say BS, I think not. I use it all the time for this purpose.

Here's a vid with Semih Sayginger and Danny Sanchez that's a little faster moving since they're just goofing around.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oz8kJAVeHRU

This vid has some added fun if you watch for a little bit. What their trying to do is send their CB 3 or more rails and end with a kiss.
Only 2 balls on the table. Very tough even for these two. Some fantastic shots and attempts showing their advanced knowledge.

I also want to mention that many years ago I attended a clinic conducted by Ceulemans and Dick Jaspers. A couple of us asked Ceulemans to show us his Maximum English. It did appear that he swiped across the ball.
 
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I did this shot the other night in a tourney......got a few smiles from the rail birds. All stroke and from hours at the table practice this type of stuff before it is needed in a tourney.

CueTable Help



I never think in terms of how much spin just in what spin I need and I just know from hours upon hours at the table what does what and if I'm up against something new, I have a very extensive data base to draw from to help execute the shot to the best of my ability.
 
Guess this thread has lost its life. Too bad I was hoping to find out what is meant by "digging into the CB" meant.

I may know how or not. Its a loose end for me here.
 
Mikjary said:
Dave, I was hoping to get some thoughts on applying BHE and how it applies to this crossover stroke. 3kushn brought up a point about swiping the cue ball. Does it add more spin because of the attack angle?

I think how much and what part of the tip hitting the cue ball is what adds to the stroke. Like the sweet part of the bat or golf club. The angle of the stroke is what allows this to happen. With extreme english, we are hitting the cue ball with the outside of our tip. There is the chance for a miscue. We hit more of the center of the tip with any BHE type of stroke.

All BHE strokes rely on our ability to control or estimate the amount of spin needed. We can really go to automatic and calculate the stroke we will use as we are actually doing it. This fine tuning is the original idea for this thread. I've tried to present actual working experience on my part and other examples of how a stroke is used rather than measurng tips.

This is not saying using tips to estimate a stroke isn't necessary. On the contrary, it's a baseline to build off of to make subtle changes one way or the other. My point is that as our game progresses, we go to automatic with using spin. We don't have to think about how to do it. We only have to think about how much we need for a particular shot and the idea of how many tips becomes a concept instead of a physical movement.

I would like to hear more about using BHE from people who use it. I use it in small doses. I don't realize it until it happens. Then I notice it. I just think about what I need from the cue ball and during the stroke I sometimes have a spasm and add spin to the cue ball. No conscious control on my part.

I can increase the amount of spin by using the crossover stroke, or by "digging into" the cue ball with the stroke I previously mentioned. If we try either one of these methods, we will find an interesting amount of spin we didn't realize was available to us. Watch videos of the top players and notice the back hand movements and follow through. On extreme draw, Larry Nevel's cue finishes high. Elbow drop? Buddy, Corey and Larry all do the same things for spin with their strokes. And they are some of the best strokes out there.


Best,
Mike
Click to expand...

When I started to use english, decades ago, I used rote to effect the amount that I desired using fractions of the ferrule away from the center of the CB. Small fractions to whole and more offsets for more english.

I was, even then, a double distance (DD) aim shooter that started the aim at the center of the CB to the double distance location/spot. Then, I would shift the ferrule to the desired fractions using front hand english (FHE). Using a stiff heavy house cue, small offset fractions were often negated by squirt and the CB would hit the OB in the wrong place - not the double distance location desired to send the OB to the target.

Using FHE The angle of the cue was no longer parallel to the line from the center of the CB to the DD, but had created an angle away with the axis at my stroking hand. This compensated for the squirt to some small degree when the CB and OB were a couple of feet away from each other.

When the CB and OB were, say, 4 feet apart or more, I noticed that swirve would take the CB further to the outside of the OB and closer to the desired DD location.

Later I observed that using back hand english (BHE), I coulld increase the attack angle because the axis of the shift was now at my bridge hand. I would adjust my stance to accomodate BHE. Using the same ferrule fraction offsets and increased angle I could compensate for squirt where the CB separation to the OB was, say, a couple of feet apart - before swerve would occur to help to hit the DD location.

After awhile, I could walk into the shot with the ferrule offsets in place with my bridge as long as I started with the DD aim stance.

If my DD stance was correctly positioned, I could even move my bridge had slightly to effect english or even swipe the CB or swoop my stroke hand closer or farther away from my hip during the stroke before impact to swipe the CB to effect english.

With practice (many hours), I incorported these tools into my skill sets for recall - by rote - both tips of english and stroke.

It's all good.:wink::thumbup:

Also having an understanding of the geometry of the angles (path of the CB to the OB) required in cutting OB to the target is the begining of aiming - be it ghost ball (GB) or DD. From that fundamental knowledge, one can apply outside english to reduce/negate the effects cut induced throw (CIT) to achieve the true geometric cut angle - rather than undercutting the shot with center CB hit (no english).

Well now the Cabernet has been kicking in and I will kill this rant.:thumbup:

Thanks for the thread and all of the informative posts within.:)
 
Know your equipment • Know your capabilities.

After it's all said and done, what it boils down to is: You have to learn what your equipment is capable of doing and know it intimately. That comes from using systems, techniques and plenty of quality time on the practice table.

The tips of English, the stroke, the equipment,and your PSR all play important parts in getting the job done.
 
LAMas said:
When I started to use english, decades ago, I used rote to effect the amount that I desired using fractions of the ferrule away from the center of the CB. Small fractions to whole and more offsets for more english.

I was, even then, a double distance (DD) aim shooter that started the aim at the center of the CB to the double distance location/spot. Then, I would shift the ferrule to the desired fractions using front hand english (FHE). Using a stiff heavy house cue, small offset fractions were often negated by squirt and the CB would hit the OB in the wrong place - not the double distance location desired to send the OB to the target.

Using FHE The angle of the cue was no longer parallel to the line from the center of the CB to the DD, but had created an angle away with the axis at my stroking hand. This compensated for the squirt to some small degree when the CB and OB were a couple of feet away from each other.

When the CB and OB were, say, 4 feet apart or more, I noticed that swirve would take the CB further to the outside of the OB and closer to the desired DD location.

Later I observed that using back hand english (BHE), I coulld increase the attack angle because the axis of the shift was now at my bridge hand. I would adjust my stance to accomodate BHE. Using the same ferrule fraction offsets and increased angle I could compensate for squirt where the CB separation to the OB was, say, a couple of feet apart - before swerve would occur to help to hit the DD location.

After awhile, I could walk into the shot with the ferrule offsets in place with my bridge as long as I started with the DD aim stance.

If my DD stance was correctly positioned, I could even move my bridge had slightly to effect english or even swipe the CB or swoop my stroke hand closer or farther away from my hip during the stroke before impact to swipe the CB to effect english.

With practice (many hours), I incorported these tools into my skill sets for recall - by rote - both tips of english and stroke.

It's all good.:wink::thumbup:

Also having an understanding of the geometry of the angles (path of the CB to the OB) required in cutting OB to the target is the begining of aiming - be it ghost ball (GB) or DD. From that fundamental knowledge, one can apply outside english to reduce/negate the effects cut induced throw (CIT) to achieve the true geometric cut angle - rather than undercutting the shot with center CB hit (no english).

Well now the Cabernet has been kicking in and I will kill this rant.:thumbup:

Thanks for the thread and all of the informative posts within.:)
Click to expand...

I started a thread a while back about missing shots because of swerve. It causes a lot of misses when you use extreme spin. We swerve on one stroke and squirt on another. Until we recognize what is happening, we will continue to miss and scratch our heads.

We use different strokes without realizing the effect it has on the cue ball path. We think we're spinning the ball too much or not enough, but for the most part we aren't hitting the object ball in the correct spot. We swerve and squirt, depending on the stroke and speed we use.

Our brains usually line up correctly and can pocket most makeable shots. With a fairly reliable stroke, we become pretty good at potting balls. Advanced players learn what the cue ball does with each stroke and the top players learn to do these strokes without thinking about them. Maybe the plateau for most players is thinking about doing something exactly instead of not exactly thinking about doing something...like tip placement on every shot. :grin:

Best,
Mike
 
Stan Shuffett • CueSmith

Mikjary said:
I started a thread a while back about missing shots because of swerve. It causes a lot of misses when you use extreme spin. We swerve on one stroke and squirt on another. Until we recognize what is happening, we will continue to miss and scratch our heads.

We use different strokes without realizing the effect it has on the cue ball path. We think we're spinning the ball too much or not enough, but for the most part we aren't hitting the object ball in the correct spot. We swerve and squirt, depending on the stroke and speed we use.

Our brains usually line up correctly and can pocket most makeable shots. With a fairly reliable stroke, we become pretty good at potting balls. Advanced players learn what the cue ball does with each stroke and the top players learn to do these strokes without thinking about them. Maybe the plateau for most players is thinking about doing something exactly instead of not exactly thinking about doing something...like tip placement on every shot. :grin:

Best,
Mike
Click to expand...

It's too bad we don't have cuesmiths like Stan Shuffett posting in this forum. He has had a chance to study the best players in the world as well as compete with them and teach many of them. Stan's quest for learning, teaching and playing pool is unequaled by anyone I know.

It is this forum's loss. :sad::sad:
 
JoeyA said:
It's too bad we don't have cuesmiths like Stan Shuffett posting in this forum. He has had a chance to study the best players in the world as well as compete with them and teach many of them. Stan's quest for learning, teaching and playing pool is unequaled by anyone I know.

It is this forum's loss. :sad::sad:
Click to expand...

Joey,

Here's a little help. Don't mention it. :)

Best,
Mike
 
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