Not a fan of "Low deflection" shaft...help me understand !!!

[Pushout]

I agree with the feel issue. But I have found an LD shaft with a great feel...
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=252474

I would agree with you 100%!! I have two of Kevin's LD shafts that came with my cue and for the very first time I'm liking the idea of LD shafts. I've railed against them for years, the laminated shafts specifically. I had a 314 on a Joss sneaky pete butt and hated it! These shafts are the nuts!

 

[ronscuba]

I've played with rock maple shafts for years. Younger, I remember when we spoke about the different levels of deflection, by asking, "how much [whip] does your shaft have? I can't take away the feeling and action you get off a good rock maple shaft. These new shafts with all the engineering behind is a nice idea for most players out there from what I've seen (majority using predator). The biggest problem I find is that playing with one of those low deflection shafts feels lifeless and hollow. Might as well play with the back end of a plastic ktichen broom from the local 99 cents store. Whatever happened to feeling a shot? How'd everything get so unecessarily technical?

........."

The Mezz WD700 and Alpha don't feel like a typical LD shaft. Definitely worth trying if you are looking for a new cue or shaft.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I've heard a lot of GOOD pool players say lately that they are not a fan of low deflection shafts...

I don't understand how anyone would not be using a low deflection shaft!

Deflection is not a good thing, right?

The more deflection, the more room for error, right?

All of these ideas are logically sound. However, you are leaving out an important consideration. Good players put a considerable value on the "feel" of the hit, and most will agree that a solid maple shaft has a nicer feel. For some this is the reason. (That and of course the fact that they have shot with a standard shaft for many years and the LD shafts shoot WAY different on shots with English...could be an instant turn off.)

I understand that ideally, you shouldn't be using much of the outside of the cue ball, but lets face it...WE ALL get into situations where you have to put some junk on the cue ball.

I believe this is false. You will find that most top players, particularly of rotation games, use LOTS of English routinely. They have learned how to do that reliably through many years of lots of practice.


I can tell you that personally, I disliked the feel of a Predator shaft when they first came out. I thought the hit felt very hollow and dead. I was not a competent enough player to really get the whole LD thing...I just couldn't get past the feel. After many attempts to like a 314, I finally hit one at the SBE that I really liked. It felt solid and I instantly took to it. That was about 8 years ago, and I haven't looked back. I'm shooting now with a 314-2. I still think the standard maple shaft that came with my cue (Andy Gilbert) "feels" better, and has a more satisfying hit. But not by a mile, just a little bit. The performance of the LD Predator shaft, however, is undeniable. SO I will stick with it, so to speak. However, I bet a LOT of top players get stuck on the feel thing.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Dr9...You bring up good points.

I agree with you. No equipment is a magic pill, yet we spend thousands on what we like.

I agree that no shaft is ZERO deflection and you must still compensate either way...but the MORE you have to compensate the more risk you run of missing the shot right?

In other-words...if you only had to compensate 1/4 inch and you mistakenly calculated 1/2 inch...you still run a VERY good chance of pocketing the object ball...

Now compare that to someone who has to compensate 1"...and mistakenly compensates 2" There is almost no chance that he will pocket the object ball.

Same error, very different outcomes.

I'm not at all suggesting that its difficult to adjust for squirt, just like a player can learn to compensate for a J-hook in their stroke, or a poor stance, high humidity, slow playing rails, or any other "less than ideal" situation, but it adds risk UN-necessarily doesn't it?

Help me understand.

I think you understand perfectly.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

BHE is more accurate than experiential adjustment with LD shafts...

BHE is easier to use than manual or experiential adjustment using LD because LD doesn't equate to no "D".

Jaden

I use backhand english quite effectively with my 314-2 shaft. Why does it have to be either/or? Not getting your point here.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

What is bhe?

In my experience ld shafts make a lot of inside English shots much easier. So much that I'm only impressed with inside English when the shooter is using a regular shaft.

How sick are some of the inside english shots that Efren makes look so easy with a standard shaft? I have never seen anyone close to him in this area.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Although typical LD shafts have a VERY long pivot point that is cumbersome for some people to use with BHE.

I am experimenting with a LD type shaft to get a wider pivot point with some success...

Jaden

I'm almost 6'3", and have about a 14 inch bridge. What you say probably explains why I'm ok with BHE. I guess if what you say is true, I could see how it might create problems for someone with a more traditional 6-8" bridge.

KMRUNOUT

 

[donny mills]

How sick are some of the inside english shots that Efren makes look so easy with a standard shaft? I have never seen anyone close to him in this area.

KMRUNOUT

Exactly. Thats exactly what I was thinking.

 

[donny mills]

The maple shaft that I've been playing with for 10 years has a messed up ferrule. I had a blind guy put tips on for years (lepro) and the beginning of the ferrule is 12.7 and the end of it is 12.0. You guys were talking about tip deflection etc. What do you think this does? I feel like it's a perfect imperfection considering I'm just not as accurate with other shafts.

Could that change deflection?

 

[JumpinJoe]

Donny whos the blind guy that did your tips forever? Jack?

 

[dr9ball]

Dr9...You bring up good points.

I agree with you. No equipment is a magic pill, yet we spend thousands on what we like.

In other-words...if you only had to compensate 1/4 inch and you mistakenly calculated 1/2 inch...you still run a VERY good chance of pocketing the object ball...

Now compare that to someone who has to compensate 1"...and mistakenly compensates 2" There is almost no chance that he will pocket the object ball.

Same error, very different outcomes.

I'm not at all suggesting that its difficult to adjust for squirt, just like a player can learn to compensate for a J-hook in their stroke, or a poor stance, high humidity, slow playing rails, or any other "less than ideal" situation, but it adds risk UN-necessarily doesn't it?

Help me understand.

Well at my age, an inch is easier to see than 1/8th of an inch. So I'll stick with my ivory ferrules and solid maple shafts

 

[Jaden]

a 12mm shaft alone will reduce squirt...

The maple shaft that I've been playing with for 10 years has a messed up ferrule. I had a blind guy put tips on for years (lepro) and the beginning of the ferrule is 12.7 and the end of it is 12.0. You guys were talking about tip deflection etc. What do you think this does? I feel like it's a perfect imperfection considering I'm just not as accurate with other shafts.

Could that change deflection?

deflection, or squirt as a better term is all about the end mass in the shaft. Well actually it's a combination of stiffness of the shaft along with end mass.

It's possible that that reduction in the ferrule is reducing the end mass some while still maintaining a stiffer hit.

I'm not going to go into details as to how I keep feel in my LD shafts but they maintain that solid hit that solid, (not hollowed out) shafts have while still reducing end mass.

Right now I can't play with it, because I juat matched up the ring work with my playing cue and am still applying the finish on it.

Jaden

p.s. I used a flat laminated wood stock for my protoypes, but my final shafts will likely be a combination, radially and flat lamination that I have been working on doing.

 

[The Chinchilla]

Ill bet you in less than that it will be almost 100% laminate shafts but that has nothing do with deflection.

Look, there's no answer to this debate so stop trying to find one. Retailers need to make money, to make money you need to give people a reason to buy. To stay in business you need to give them a reason to buy again. LD shafts are new/er and different. Better? Better than what? Everyone has their own answer and no one is right or wrong but the fact that any debate continues to exist is what keep the business machine running. LD is great sounding technical term and it helps that most people don't truly understand what it means. Add to that the diminishing availability of quality old growth shaft wood and thats where we're at.

The bottom line is you don't have to understand and it doesn't have to work for you. If you do and it does? Go play and get more people playing because that's what we really need right now. If it doesn't? Then go do the same.

Well, in this case "better" can actually be defined. A better scope for example in a shooting range may be more accurate, a lesser one you'd have to compensate more. Which one is "better...." the one you have to compensate less with. Does that mean a guy can't be the "best" with an "inferior" scope? NO. It just means he overcame his competition in that one area where there is a possibility to gain a slight advantage. But yes, cue "hit" is subjective.... so better isn't necessarily better... but i still think the above argument holds a lot of water, at least when it comes to deflection.

 

[Bambu]

I think its just that lots of guys have used regular shafts for years and dont want to(or feel the need to) change. I felt that way for a long time too, until I tried a Z-2. After awhile you forget the sound. I still miss it, but its control I'm after.

I still dont get the pivoting with bhe to cancel out deflection. Not saying it wont work, but it seems impractical when often times you have to shoot off of, or close to a rail. That would also hamper my ability to change my bridge length as I see fit.

 

[West Point 1987]

You really don't have to get wrapped around the axle over pivot point/length with BHE...yes, there is an optimal length for every shaft, but the effect/amount is not as severe as most people seem to think. I play with a very long bridge (12 inches or so)...optimal pivot point for my either of my shafts is about 9 inches. I can't see any difference in the offset effect of using BHE from 12 or 9 inches. Choked up bridging off the rail I'm really not putting that much english on it usually, but if I do, I combine FHE and BHE a little and sometimes adjust the aim (usually for a thinner hit, unless it's inside english, then I aim a little thicker). Works just fine.

I've always used BHE...the only time I find a need for parallel english (or FHE), is when I need to put some unusually squirrely spin (usually a draw with severe spin on a straight shot to make it come back and run shallow and long off a rail). In those cases, if the separation between CB and OB is less than about two feet (which it almost always is), I don't get enough deflection to make me miss.

 

[naji]

I've heard a lot of GOOD pool players say lately that they are not a fan of low deflection shafts...

I don't understand how anyone would not be using a low deflection shaft!

Deflection is not a good thing, right?

The more deflection, the more room for error, right?

I understand that ideally, you shouldn't be using much of the outside of the cue ball, but lets face it...WE ALL get into situations where you have to put some junk on the cue ball.

I just wanted to hear from some of the folks that don't use low deflection...please help me understand, I'm keeping an open mind because I know there's a lot of people who feel that way. I just never had anyone actually tell me what is running through their mind on the subject.

This is an honest attempt to solicit opinions, not an I'm right, you're stupid session. Please limit any ridiculous responses.

You only deflect a lot when you shooting 1st -hard , 2nd-tip is close to miss cue limit (Ref. Dr. Dave), 3rd-Cue ball more than 2 diamonds away from OB, and 4th OB at least 4 diamonds away from pocket. My advise use small tip say 10 mm and do not take it all the way out to miss cue limit; You might say it is hard to shoot with small tip, answer is yes, but in my opinion it is better, and you will be able to know how much english (spin) is too much or too little; also will teach you to keep you eye at CB exact tip contact point when you fire and stay down on every shot. If you notice, snooker cue tip is 9 or even 8 mm, true there ball is smaller, but in comparison to pool ball the tip is way smaller, and mainly to avoid deflection on 12' tables.

My advise, (Ref. Dr Dave) too much english does you no good, always use as little as possible 1/8-1/4 tip tip to get the job done, yes some times you need more, so learn to adjust on those few shots that you went out of line on.

The other advise which is more critical and why 80% of shots are missed; always on every shot before you go down, ask your self what is the cue ball condition you want when it contacts the OB (slide, rolling, left spin, right spin) then aim accordingly, and make sure you stroke the CB to develop what is expected. Say you want it to slide like a stop shot so you aim a little short or wide of pocket, you under stroke the CB and rolled just before it contact the OB so the OB will not throw as expected and miss the shot. Watch those OB when too close to CB lots of time you slide unintentionally and miss! and final note, make sure your tip does get to where you intended by looking at chalk marks on CB

Speaking on inside english, it favors those shots that you normally under cut due to aim errors, but inside will not help if you do not shoot the shot medium to hard to get the deflection, but if CB slides with inside good luck making the ball.

 

[naji]

The Renfro, your avatar pic is the best on AZB; who is she, can i get full production picture of her, man! she is very sexy!!

 

[Houstoer]

Is there a place i can read more about BHE. Never heard of it until I read this thread. Thanks much !

 

[8onthebreak]

So in summation, if I understand posts...
The reasons why players elect to play with standard shafts are:
1. Feel and hit
2. LD shafts make shots too easy
3. For some That's what they've always played with
4. Some Don't like hollow feel
5. Some Prefer the challenge of estimating the deflection and don't mind the risk trade off.
6. Some believe that players think too much about equipment.

Did I miss any reasons?

I think that what is interesting is that nobody refutes that a standard shaft adds more risk than an LD shaft...more risk (over time) means more mistakes, so I'm left wondering...if trading FEEL for RESULTS is worth it?

 

[AtLarge]

Is there a place i can read more about BHE. Never heard of it until I read this thread. Thanks much !

Here's Dr. Dave's material: http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/English.html#BHE