Mosconi Cup is a cut break contest.
Ralf Souquet Comment
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Mosconi Cup is a cut break contest.
I agree with this and it's only going to get worse. When you couple the fact that there are less and less major tournaments (20,000+ money added) to play and it's now nearly impossible for top players to make much money off of gambling - there really isn't much financial incentive for the top U.S. players to stay committed to the sport. It's sort of a cultural thing over here. Historically, gambling has always been a big part of the game and for years this kept the players going but with the internet and the overall economic slow down I don't think the action is there anymore. Players are drifting off never to be heard from again.
I think much of the European and Asian (not Phinoy's so much) players play for the love of the game and this will take their players a long way. I'm guessing their introduction to the game is much different than ours. Maybe they begin playing in some club setting where they are just encouraged to play and enjoy themselves. So starting out they really are just playing for the pure enjoyment of it and maybe the camaraderie. Over here, you are introduced to the game by watching money change hands. The game quickly becomes not about how much you enjoy it but about how much money you can make while doing it.
Okay, just so I understand this, can you give examples of odds you would place on some hypothetical match-ups between the top American and European players? Let's take Corey Deuel for example. What do you think the odds are of him beating Immonen, Hohmann or Souquet? You can give your answer as a percentage.
EDIT: Just so we're clear, the game is 9ball in a race to 9. Winner breaks.
I wanted to add one more thing to my comment:
I bet the U.S. has way more shortstop level players than anybody else in the world. A lot of these guys are the ones that figured out that there was no money to be made playing professionally. Some of them run pool rooms. Some of them are now working stiffs that just play part time. But make no mistake about it - we have A LOT of really good players in this country. Unfortunately, most of these guys aren't very young and if something doesn't happen in the next 10-15 years to encourage more kids to play the game we will have nobody to replace them.
I bet the U.S. has way more shortstop level players than anybody else in the world. A lot of these guys are the ones that figured out that there was no money to be made playing professionally. Some of them run pool rooms. Some of them are now working stiffs that just play part time. But make no mistake about it - we have A LOT of really good players in this country. Unfortunately, most of these guys aren't very young and if something doesn't happen in the next 10-15 years to encourage more kids to play the game we will have nobody to replace them.
Rack your own 9 ball?
Sure. Please understand, I'm not suddenly going to hold anyone to these odds. I just want to get an idea of what we're talking about.
Let me answer like this. No one is beating down the door of Corey to play RYO 9 ball. But your point is, based on normal conditions and no gaff, Europe has better top players in rotational pool than the USA does. I would agree.
Okay, then we can move to Archer or Strickland. What do you think the odds are of Souquet beating either of them? Please give your answer in the form of a percentage. In fact, you can provide your answer under the circumstances you feel are most favorable for Souquet.
I think European pool got at its strongest when more UK based players got seriously involved in competing at Eurotour. That definitely raised the bar. Also, some European countries are blessed with government funded billiard youth programme not unlike that of Taiwan. They are only going to get stronger.
I think Europe and Asia are pretty evenly matched these days.
I think Europe and Asia are pretty evenly matched these days.
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Jude, it's not that simple. If we are talking gambling well then Ralf would soil himself before the match started and from there it would be difficult to play. Yes, I am kidding. I have a ton of respect for Ralf and know he doesn't gamble.
Regards to tournament play, I would have to say that Ralf is peaking right now. So historical track record doesn't matter much.
I would give an ever so slight advantage to Ralf.
Okay then please understand that my "coin-toss" reference is not meant to be a pure 50/50 scenario. I think even a fairly strict translation of the reference would allow for 45/55 and maybe even 40/60. The point I was making is that these guys go back and forth all the time. None of them are dominant over the others and that includes Souquet.
Ok, Jude, so we agree. There is parity at the professional level.
Is this "rack your own" 9-ball?
I will tell you what, lets get rid of the gaff "well I can think of a way to set up the game where Corey is...." junk and just say "what are the chances that Corey beats Immonen, Hohmann, or Souquet in the world 9-ball championships?" I am not sure on what format they use, but that is a match that matters in todays pool world.
I would say any one of those 3 Europeans for the last 5 years is at least a 60-40 favorite against Corey in that tournament match under that pressure on that world stage, and Corey's success on that stage compared to the success of those other 3 players is strong evidence that this is actually true. He has simply not managed to win events like that, he does not manage to get as deep as Immonen, Souquet, or Hohmann with the same regularity.
I am a huge fan of Corey, I think he is one of the most naturally gifted players on the planet, but I like alot of other people was not only pleasently surprised that Corey got 2nd in the 2010 US Open, but also a little shocked, given how little he plays.
Corey could be every bit as good as those 3 players IF he played the same amount of pool and commited to the game as much as those 3 players, but he does not and thus he is not.
I honestly seriously doubt it. There are full blown world class pro level players in China that noone in the USA even knows about. We only hear about a few of the best of the best and occasionally some person noone has ever even heard of from China goes and snaps off a world class event. Given that how many of the "not quite" pro level players do you think are there? To get 10+ world class pro level players you can bet there are many times that amount that are just below that level, it is the nature of the sport and in truth all sports.
I lived in Australia for a while and I will say, Adelaide Australia has just as many shortstop level players as Calgary does. I did not know any of them before going there, but there is a reason that every single year some new person or 3 comes from Australia and gets deep in the Vegas Nationals, same thing for Team Spain coming out year after year wih 5 new guys and 3 of them tend to tear pretty deep into the singles without fail. I mean, Where is Quinton Hann these days? That guy proved to be a world class 8-ball player during the short lived IPT and previous to that pulling him out of Australia noone other then bigtime snooker fans had a clue who he even was. Heck Appleton was a blackball champion that noone knew before the IPT as well. Chris Melling just showed up, these guys are not just appearing out of nowhere, they are coming up from a strong amature pool with alot of top quality shortstop level players who are not quite good enough to get known by American pool fans.
The difference is that you actually know alot of the shortstop level players in the USA and you can name them, you simply have no clue who the shortstop level players are in the other countries.
Europe passed the US long ago and is extending its advantage each year.
America has just one champion that is snapping off any of the large field events having signinficant representaiton from each of the world's three major pool playing continents, and that's Van Boening, and this has been true for a while.
On American soil alone, Europe has won the last four US Open 9-ball events, the last six World 14.1 events, and the last three Challenge of Champion events. They've also won four of the last five Mosconi Cups, and two of the last three played in America.
The matches in tournament play hardly qualify as coin tosses when its always the same guys (mostly Orcullo, Van Boening, Souquet, Appleton) that hoist the trophies in the biggest events. In tournament play, the only coin toss matches for Ralf Souquet are Shane, Dennis, Darren, and Alex, and every other player on the planet is an underdog.
The results don't lie. Americans not named Shane nearly never win any of the biggest titles. It's nothing to be ashamed of, but to deny Europe's pool playing pedigree is to live in denial.
America has just one champion that is snapping off any of the large field events having signinficant representaiton from each of the world's three major pool playing continents, and that's Van Boening, and this has been true for a while.
On American soil alone, Europe has won the last four US Open 9-ball events, the last six World 14.1 events, and the last three Challenge of Champion events. They've also won four of the last five Mosconi Cups, and two of the last three played in America.
The matches in tournament play hardly qualify as coin tosses when its always the same guys (mostly Orcullo, Van Boening, Souquet, Appleton) that hoist the trophies in the biggest events. In tournament play, the only coin toss matches for Ralf Souquet are Shane, Dennis, Darren, and Alex, and every other player on the planet is an underdog.
The results don't lie. Americans not named Shane nearly never win any of the biggest titles. It's nothing to be ashamed of, but to deny Europe's pool playing pedigree is to live in denial.
Thanks for your candidness. I don't agree with you but I respect your answer.
I don't believe what you've said is evidence of pedigree. Only one Asian player has ever won the US Open 9ball. Does this suggest Asia is inferior? Regarding the last four US Opens, specifically, two players have gone back-to-back (Appleton and Immonen). Prior to those two players winning the US Open, it had been won by four different Americans and a Canadian.
A lot of Americans not named Shane are also not competing in any of these tournaments. Former Mosconi members Tony Robles and John Schmidt are more than capable of playing their very best right now and yet neither have been terribly active in 2011.
Even if we restrict ourselves to 2011 and only to events played in America, the only large field events having significant participation form the three major pool playing continents, it's not a pretty picture for Americans not named Shane in rotation pool events.
At Derby City in January, the nine ball event was won by Orcullo
At Derby City in January, the one pocket event was won by Van Boening
At Derby City in January, Pagulayan won the bank pool event
The ten ball event at Valley Forge was won by Souquet
The one-pocket event in May in Las Vegas was won by Reyes
The ten ball event in May in Las Vegas was won by Van Boening
The Turning Stone classic in September was won by Morris
The US Open 9-ball in October was won by Darren Appleton
.... and every single one of these events was played in America and had a field that was mostly American. Whether a field has lots of Americans in it or not, and whether or not the event is played in America, the result seems to be the same. It's the superstars taking home all the titles, and there's only one that's American.
... and, as you suggest, their absence from much of the international tournament scene is not in itself proof of weakened American pedigree, but it has been and will continue to be a cause of weakened American pedigree.
If you don't compete against the best as often as possible, your competitivge pedigree drops. European players haven't let it happen. American players not named Shane have.
This is true! About 5 years ago or so 20-30 UK players invaded the Eurotour and the level of play increased immidiately!
The Eurotour have been playing nonstop for nearly 20 years (?), with almost the same format in every tournament. It does not happen often that a player win more than one event a year, out of the 7 yearly stops. The quality of the best players are great, and there are lots of players capable of winning each tournament, and way more players that are capable of knocking out Souquet, Ortmann, Feijen etc at the first day.
It is not unusual that some of the seeded players are gone after two matches. They need to stay sharp in every match to win and get the results to qualify for World Championships and Mosconi Cup etc.