Legal or illegal?

victorl

Where'd my stroke go?
Silver Member
There's a guy who comes to play house tournaments at my hall who has a unique cue setup that I'm not sure is legal or not. Where I play jump cues are not allowed, but he has a dedicated full length jump cue that jumps like a short cue. He showed it to me and it was a regular jump break cue, but he had completely drilled out the core of the butt piece so it weighs next to nothing, so it's pretty much a jump cue with a weightless extension.
It felt only slightly heavier than a regular jump cue, so I'd say about 10-12 oz tops.
There's no weight rule where I play so I guess it's ok, but doesn't that defeat the purpose of a no-jump-cue rule?
What do y'all think, legal or not?
 
There's a guy who comes to play house tournaments at my hall who has a unique cue setup that I'm not sure is legal or not. Where I play jump cues are not allowed, but he has a dedicated full length jump cue that jumps like a short cue. He showed it to me and it was a regular jump break cue, but he had completely drilled out the core of the butt piece so it weighs next to nothing, so it's pretty much a jump cue with a weightless extension.
It felt only slightly heavier than a regular jump cue, so I'd say about 10-12 oz tops.
There's no weight rule where I play so I guess it's ok, but doesn't that defeat the purpose of a no-jump-cue rule?
What do y'all think, legal or not?

since the purpose of the cue is to make jumping easier then it is a jump cue and against the rules.
 
There's a guy who comes to play house tournaments at my hall who has a unique cue setup that I'm not sure is legal or not. Where I play jump cues are not allowed, but he has a dedicated full length jump cue that jumps like a short cue. He showed it to me and it was a regular jump break cue, but he had completely drilled out the core of the butt piece so it weighs next to nothing, so it's pretty much a jump cue with a weightless extension.
It felt only slightly heavier than a regular jump cue, so I'd say about 10-12 oz tops.
There's no weight rule where I play so I guess it's ok, but doesn't that defeat the purpose of a no-jump-cue rule?
What do y'all think, legal or not?
I think a main reason to ban jump cues is that they have phenolic tips. Does his cue have a phenolic tip?
 
I think the rule is against the length of the cue. As long as it's a full length cue, it should be fine. There is a weight rule but I've only heard of a cue being too heavy, but never heard of it being too light.
 
change the rule so that a player can only jump with a regular playing cue, the cue he shoot every shot with. no break cue, no jump cue and any other cue, just the regular playing cue.
 
I think a main reason to ban jump cues is that they have phenolic tips. Does his cue have a phenolic tip?

And how many people can look at a tip and tell with it is phenolic or not ...

They don't allow jump cues so that it saves the felt and makes you learn how to kick instead ...
 
The no break cue rules are laughable at best... How many years has this been being argued now? 25+? I don't think the winds are going to change and the major sanctioning bodies suddenly declare them illegal...

I find it amazingly funny that most of the players I have met that don't like jump cues usually cannot jump and are relatively weak safety players....

I would rather they institute a rule where you can only use the jump cue on either your first shot on a turn at the table or on a shot following a push after the break than a total ban... Hooking yourself shouldn't leave you the jump bail out.....

I love pushing to jump shots off the break when I am playing someone who I know hates jump cues and has to pass it back or hope to a kick in.....
 
I don't like jump shots even though I can jump. I just think it is a better game and takes more skill when you have to kick. I digress....


Is it illegal? It depends on how the rules were written. As a local rule, it probably wasn't written at all, so therefore legal unless trumped by another rule. For example, if it is known that BCA rules are used for all other rules except the jump cue, and the BCA has a minimum weight limit (I don't know the rule for sure) on standard cues, then it is illegal.

I'm sure it is not within the spirit of the rule, but rules must be clear and recorded in writing otherwise you will always have controversies like the one mentioned.
 
In order to have a rule the excludes "jump cues" , the rule would have to outline what would constitute a jump cue. So whether or not this cue in question is legal or not depends on how the rule is written.

Beyond that, if this cue of his is a dedicated jump cue by his own definition, then he himself have deemed it illegal by admission.

The proper way to create a rule to govern these actions would be to limit the ability to change cues after the break or to require a person to have to play out a rack after any change of cue during that rack. I know of people that will play with a full length break cue purely to have the option of a full length jumper should the need arise at the cost of normal playing ability. To each their own.

Lastly, if the jump cue rule is there to protect the table and cloth then again, it probably should not be cue specific but rather target the action of jumping most likely by limiting the max angle a player may jack up his cue for any given shot.

IMO. :)
 
It's a full length cue and it is not over the 25 once limit. It's legal unless the rules say he can not switch to his break cue for jumping.
 
Just to clarify, the rule here is that cues must be full length, but phenolics are ok. I spoke with the owner and he said it was to prevent amateurs from shooting jump shots everytime they got hooked. He doesn't seem to have a problem with the full length jump cue though.
I can jump full cue to a certain extent, but it seems unfair that he can do things like push out to jump shots that are extremely difficult to do with a regular cue.
I'm thinking of doing the same thing myself.. If you can't beat them join them.
Just curious, do any of you play in halls that have banned jump cues? Would this setup be allowed there?
 
I find it amazingly funny that most of the players I have met that don't like jump cues usually cannot jump and are relatively weak safety players....

The greatest safety player of all time, Efren Reyes, refused to use a jump cue for about his first fifteen years as a pro. Also, the advantage enjoyed by the greatest kickers is diminshed by the existence of the jump cue, because they get less value out of their kick safes than otherwise. I find it amazingly funny that Efren, the best safety player and kicker of all time was, for so long, intolerant of the jump cue.
 
The greatest safety player of all time, Efren Reyes, refused to use a jump cue for about his first fifteen years as a pro. Also, the advantage enjoyed by the greatest kickers is diminshed by the existence of the jump cue, because they get less value out of their kick safes than otherwise. I find it amazingly funny that Efren, the best safety player and kicker of all time was, for so long, intolerant of the jump cue.

Pretty good stretch there... Yeah... makes no sense for the guy that can out kick you by miles to want you to have to kick as well....

Guess after 15 years he finally gave up fighting it and realized there were places where he would like to have a jumper... Some people aren't that smart and still keep fighting...

Even Earl has a jump cue now and we all know what he thinks about them..... I figured hell would freeze over before that ever happened....
 
The greatest safety player of all time, Efren Reyes, refused to use a jump cue for about his first fifteen years as a pro. Also, the advantage enjoyed by the greatest kickers is diminshed by the existence of the jump cue, because they get less value out of their kick safes than otherwise. I find it amazingly funny that Efren, the best safety player and kicker of all time was, for so long, intolerant of the jump cue.

In Efren's first 15 years as a "pro" in the USA jump cues were not very popular. Most pros did not own or use them during that time. Fong Pang Chao bought his first one from me at one of the shows in Las Vegas and that same year won the Challenge of Champions against Bustamante with a long jump shot to cut a mid-table 7 ball in. Allen Hopkins rightly commented that Bustamante had played the wrong safety and diagrammed another one that would have cut off the jump shot.

Efren now uses a jump cue.

Speaking of Allen Hopkins he didn't use one for a long time either despite being near Pat Fleming who kind of pioneered them. But many years ago Allen stopped by my booth and wanted to try one. His first shot he jumped the cue ball off the table. After 3 seconds of instruction from me which consisted of saying "half that power Allen" he locked into what he needed and proceeded to make some great controlled shots. He bought a cue.

Room owners are all wrong when they ban jump cues. The cues are legal in the world rules so instead of banning them how about teaching the "amateurs" the proper way to use them and when to use them. Encourage learning and skill-building.

People talk about the decline of pool well THIS is one reason why. All this fracturing is ridiculous.

I think it was Bob Jewett who recommended having a jump shot practice day when the pool room is going to recover the tables.

Imagine for a moment what sorts of FUN you could have in a pool room where you invite your customers to GO CRAZY learning to jump and masse?

I can guarantee that the end result would be customers and players that have more skills AND more respect for the equipment after they spent a day or so tearing it up on purpose.

Those newly skilled customers would then be the ones who guide all the others who didn't get the benefit of the training day.

Bring in someone who knows how to jump and someone who knows everything about masse' shots. What fun it would be to learn from them in a setting where no one was afraid to kill the cloth.

BUT no one thinks this way do they? Just fracture pool as much as possible and be DIFFERENT than the rest of the world and then wonder why the rest of the world is better at the game.

In China and Taiwan they have house jump cues that any one can use.

In America, the land of prohibition, people have to make up hybrid workarounds to get around biased bans.
 
Stop framing it as a kicking vs. jumping argument. It's not.

Efren uses a jump cue because he knows that there are SOME shots where the jump is the right shot and he wants to have a jump cue for those times.

Being able to jump does not diminish the ability to kick. The only thing that prevents a person from being able to kick well is lack of practice.

Regarding the OP's point, there have been full length "jump" cues out there all the time. Want to make one easily? Screw a piece of 1/8th" maple dowel to an existing jump cue. Instant 57" jump cue.

If the intention is to stop people from jumping with a ban on jump cues then obviously it's not working when someone makes a "full length" cue that can jump as well as a jump cues. Why not ban the jump shot and force everyone to kick?
 
change the rule so that a player can only jump with a regular playing cue, the cue he shoot every shot with. no break cue, no jump cue and any other cue, just the regular playing cue.

Come play some Joss Northeast 9 Ball Tour events. No jump cues allowed. If you have such a cue as described by the OP, it is legal but..... only two cues are allowed at the table. A playing cue and one other. If you have the "dedicated" jump cue at the table, you must break with either it or your playing cue. That's Mike Z's story and he is sticking with it! Sure cuts down on jump shots.

Lyn
 
Unless the particular rules have a specified minimum length cue closer to that of a regular cue, it will be a legal cue.
BCA rules are

Player may bring a maximum of 3 cue sticks to a match.

Width of tip: 9 mm minimum / 14 mm maximum
Weight: no minimum / 25 oz. maximum
Length: 40 inches minimum / no maximum
The cue tip may not be of a material that can scratch or damage the addressed ball. The cue tip on any stick must be composed of a piece of specially processed leather or other fibrous or pliable material that extends the natural line of the shaft end of the cue and contacts the cue ball when the shot is executed.

Ferrule, if of a metal material, may not be more than 1 inch in length.

The cue tip on any stick used to perform a legal jump shot must be composed of either a leather or synthetic leather material.

There are quite a few players capable of jumping with a regular cue.
 
There's a guy who comes to play house tournaments at my hall who has a unique cue setup that I'm not sure is legal or not. Where I play jump cues are not allowed, but he has a dedicated full length jump cue that jumps like a short cue. He showed it to me and it was a regular jump break cue, but he had completely drilled out the core of the butt piece so it weighs next to nothing, so it's pretty much a jump cue with a weightless extension.
It felt only slightly heavier than a regular jump cue, so I'd say about 10-12 oz tops.
There's no weight rule where I play so I guess it's ok, but doesn't that defeat the purpose of a no-jump-cue rule?
What do y'all think, legal or not?

If they did not ban jumping, only the use of jump cues, then I do not see a problem.
 
Neil,

The OP specifically stated his room does not allow the use of traditional "short" jump cues. Your statement is correct for BCAPL, ACS, VNEA etc. league play. This is a special circumstance that parallels the Joss Tour and others.

Lyn
 
change the rule so that a player can only jump with a regular playing cue, the cue he shoot every shot with. no break cue, no jump cue and any other cue, just the regular playing cue.
Amen. Jump cues ruin the game.
 
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