What happened to pool?

One pool room that I know of pays $15,000 a month for rent alone. Consistently good liquor sales are mandatory to keep a place like that open. Remember, they still got to buy the liquor, pay the electric, the employees, the taxes, this that and about 100 other things.


Now, reconcile that with the fact that a lot of players don't like paying more than $8/hr to rent a table at night...
 
Pool players are letting go of their place to be. There never were that many distractions at a pool hall back when people spent more time there. Now, you have all sorts of things that chase would be regulars away.
 
Yes, TV, video games, and the 18 minute safety battle on ESPN killed pool.

I like Celtic's idea of getting pool into the school systems, although this is a bit too formidable.

Someone needs to come through with a break through to make the cost of pool tables very cheap. When the VHS players went below $600, their sales sky rocketed. We will have to get some kind of scientific break through however.

Right now, the pool leagues are the only thing helping pool survive.

I have mentioned this before, but a surefire way to make pool flourish is to put it into a horse racing situation, where people can bet on the outcome. The only problem is there would be too many pool players throwing matches for the money, unless someone on the forum here could figure out a way of stopping this.
 
Most things have been mentioned, I guess. I think one big thing is that there is no "instant gratification" in pool, it takes too much time {and now, money} to learn the game to where you can even play at a decent amateur level. When we were back in NYS to visit in March there were no young players in either of the rooms we visited and I understand they are few and far between. One place we visited had 16 guys in it at the time, two had jobs and the rest were retired or, like me, on Disability. One place has twenty-some tables and I don't know how they can afford to stay open.
 
Grilled Cheese said:
It's worse than you think. There's laziness even within video games themselves. There was an era of sorts, late 1990's early 2000's where certain kinds of video games actually required months and even years to reach a high level of play in. Large learning curve to reach the highest levels of competition. Usually FPS type games.


The creators of video games quickly moved away from that, and dramatically simplified and dumbed down these games so that they don't even require much hand eye coordination (if you can call it that) and quick reaction speed. Making them 10x more "accessible" to the novice video gamer. They are more about fancy graphics and visuals, cinematics, story and such than they are about raw game play. More customers that way. Also, what good is a game with a 2 year learning curve to be able to compete at the top? They like to release new games each year or 18 months.
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That game still exist, stacraft 2.. it's a lot like pool in it's thinking part without a doubt
 
Quesports said:
While I do respect your opinion let me ask, what future has pool got in America without any interest from the generations to come? Oddly it seems that there is interest from younger generations in other countries and it makes me wonder why there and not here?
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I don't know and I wish I had an answer. I can only tell you that promoting pool to the youth in the U.S is an exercise in futility. That is my experience.
 
"It's the economy,stupid!"

mactheknife said:
I understand this is a broad question.

But really, what the heck happened? I am 27 years old and I can't seem to get enough of the game, I mean, I love the game... period.

I can not tell you how many videos I've watched of tournaments back before I was born and in my infant years that were happening and there was not a damn seat left in the room, even standing room was scarce in most of these live events.

I talked with an older friend of mine who has been in the bar business for many years. He said it used to be you could run into a snooker table or 9 foot table in the mid-west in almost every single town town you drove through, even the BFE towns with population 19 had a snooker table in there towns dining hall.

What the HELL happened?!?
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Just quoting Bill Clinton to make a point, not directed at you!
There are lots of good responses to this important topic.
I would add that back in the day, pool hall (and tavern owners with pool tables) tended to be players or at least LIKE the game! Seems like nowadays, many billiard centers are opened by folks only in it for the buck, which often means getting in, making a quick buck and getting out, leaving a business place that needs repairs, etc.
But perhaps the real problem is the general flow of $ in America. If we could take some of the billions that banks, insurance companies and other corporate entities have stolen from average and low income folks over the past few decades and return it, billiard centers and countless other small businesses would likely do much better.
(When I'm talking "small business", I don't mean the Mitt Romney version. On paper, he's a small businessman, because he plays the system and owns countless "small" ($5 or less annual according to McCain) businesses, rather than one giant corp.)
Donny L
BCA/ACS Instructor
Gainesville, Fl
In and around the pool business since 1955...
 
Donny Lutz said:
Just quoting Bill Clinton to make a point, not directed at you!
There are lots of good responses to this important topic.
I would add that back in the day, pool hall (and tavern owners with pool tables) tended to be players or at least LIKE the game! Seems like nowadays, many billiard centers are opened by folks only in it for the buck, which often means getting in, making a quick buck and getting out, leaving a business place that needs repairs, etc.
But perhaps the real problem is the general flow of $ in America. If we could take some of the billions that banks, insurance companies and other corporate entities have stolen from average and low income folks over the past few decades and return it, billiard centers and countless other small businesses would likely do much better.
(When I'm talking "small business", I don't mean the Mitt Romney version. On paper, he's a small businessman, because he plays the system and owns countless "small" ($5 or less annual according to McCain) businesses, rather than one giant corp.)
Donny L
BCA/ACS Instructor
Gainesville, Fl
In and around the pool business since 1955...
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I am afraid there is a catch 22 to your idea. In good times real estate goes up, rents go up, salary's go up etc. and strangles the pool room even more. A pool room is governed by the clock and calendar. In any given 24 hour day and 7 day week there are only so many peak hours in a pool room when you make any money at all. It is not like say a manufacturing business where you can get more contracts and add extra shifts with unlimited financial potential. A pool room is locked into a maximum fixed amount they can make in even the best of times.

When you convert this to a graph and actually lay it out for a new room owner to understand it scares them to death. You can draw a line through the graph and see where you have to be to even survive and then they discover they only profit they may see doesn't even start till possibly the last day of the week and the rest of the week is just to pay the nut reality sets in. There is no magic way to get around this fact, it is simple math. Unfortunately many new room owners lie to themselves and base their numbers on only the best of times. They end up with a Mission Imposable plan where everything has to fall into place perfectly. They grossly over estimate what they can make and under estimate what costs will be. They live only one bad turn in business from closing the doors, even with what from the outside may look like a thriving business.

You mention the economy, strangely enough, pool rooms have often thrived in the worst of times. I will give you a current example. A few years ago I again toyed with the idea of another room. The building I was looking at I can actually buy today for what would have been less then two years rent back then. So if I was still so inclined, I could actually pick up that building and own it with a very minimal mortgage payment and open the same pool room I was thinking of then with a much lower operating cost and better future security. There are lots of way to look it it but the bottom line is, the players have to come through the doors and that seems to be today's real problem. Where are the new players to come from. We may have a "chicken and egg" problem here. No pool rooms no players, no players no pool rooms. Is there a demand that needs to be filled or one that needs to be created, what comes first?
 
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ironman...You live in TX and you don't even know the story behind Earl's million-dollar run? Earl DID get paid (he just didn't get the full million). The insurance company settled with CJ for $650K. Earl got $300K, CJ got back his $50K (that he paid Earl for the first year's annuity payment), and the lawyers got the other $300K. You should probably amend your comment about promoters to "some promoters". Your comment paints all pool promoters in a bad light.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

ironman said:
We
Earl Won 1 million and hasn't been paid.

The promoters have not been good leaders nor very good role models. So, they make deals to insure there are meals and gas money. i can't say that I blame them. They were taught well.
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Brian...I think it's a little more simple than that. The average Joe can actually visualize themselves sitting at the WSOP final table, catching a lucky card, or making a good bluff. On the other hand, that same average Joe cannot see themselves playing pool at a level that would be considered 'world class'.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Kickin' Chicken said:
IMHO, poker was the most recent cause of death for pool. There have been other causes over the past 25 or so years but in the last 5-10, poker it is.

The reason is simple. In poker, big money prizes are being offered, plenty of promotion/excitement behind it, and a person can become fairly proficient in a relatively short period of time when compared to pool.

A few months working on your poker game and you might be getting pretty good. A few months playing pool and your lucky to be an APA 4. Typically, it takes years to get very good in our sport.

The same testosterone-headed demographic who would be playing pool has been stolen away by better and easier opportunities in card games. :(

Best,
Brian kc
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macguy said:
A pool room is locked into a maximum fixed amount they can make in even the best of times.
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Only for those who think in little bitty ways. There are creative ways in which to increase pool playing time and most pool hall owners I have seen on this forum neglect key money making ideas.

The Magic Cue in Germantown (the Asian owners took over and ruined everything by being stupid and cheap) flourished because:

It was in a good location and the pool leagues brought in tons of business on only two nights a week....of course there were plenty of pool tables.

On Monday and Weds nights you could shoot pool for $10 for 3 hours.

On league nights beer prices were reduced and cheeseburgers were 1/2 price for league members.

Magicians were brought in to entertain the non-pool playing customers eating at tables.

Friday nights were kereoke (sp?). Tons of action there.

Weekend tournaments were held EVERY weekend. The house put up lots of money. I have seen doubles tournaments with over 100 people. If you lost/got knocked out, you could still shoot pool on the tables assigned for the tournament. A lot of cheap ass owners will pull the tables at this point, running the customers out who are paying money to eat and drink (go figure). Free trips to Bermuda were given away to the winners (I am sure the owners worked something out with the travel agencies - creative, huh?). Point is - can you only imagine how much money 100 players will bring in over a 4 hour period. Most owners' brains couldn't even come close to imagining this. They think in little terms.

Another pool hall (Champions in Rockville) used to have the Big Rack (pay $5 and get a chance to draw into 4 people trying to break and run out a nine ball rack. I have seen over $1,000 won as the pot keeps building up each week if nobody runs out. This would draw about 30-40 players in.

The Magic Cue held wet teashirt contests in the summer. Reduced beer and food prices. 200 people however easily made up the margin.

Then the Asians took over and greatly reduced all of these benefits. The hamburgers went from Agnus to dog meat. Things went down so fast after the leagues started leaving and going elsewhere the place went out of business (bought out by HardTimes which is just as stupid).
 
Scott Lee said:
Scarmouche...Just FYI, CW is NOT Korean. He is a born-in-the-USA American, of Korean descent (same as Jeanette Lee). It still amazes me the people that don't know this...it's common knowledge.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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Charlie Williams grew up in New Port News / Hampton Va. area.
He was offten backed by a guy who worked at the New Port News shipyard who went by the name "Swamp Rat"
This is why I always get a small chuckel when I hear Charlie being introduced as the "Korean Dragon" ;)
 
On the subject of expenses I've seen a lot of room owners post they can't make a living off of table time, and want many other owners to understand that. On that vein, pricing your tables beyond what most people make at minimum wage will never help; the sport simply becomes too expensive to play for the average person. That expense comes before they buy any sundries like alcohol, food, snacks, time at the dartboards, swag, pro-shop purchases, etc. When you can't pay for the table, you're not going to buy food.

But in that list, most places have: pool & snacks. And when table time can't pay the bills, only having snacks to fall back on won't do it either.

We've had the last competitor close their doors here just a few weeks ago. This is now a one-hall town and the place is packed with all of the miscreants who used to visit the other hall. It's good for the owner because you can't get a table anymore, but it's also bubble; the serious players don't want to be around the bangers. The best, and most successful halls I've played in don't allow that kind of behavior. They also all have more to do than just pool tables and bag a chips.

And on the subject of youth; it's a great idea and foundations like the BEF are trying to change that but they need your support as much as pool needs sponsors. A $20 donation instead of losing $20 to another player is a better investment.

Our hall won't allow under 18's to play because if someone sneaks an alcoholic beverage to a minor, the owner is on the hook for the fine. So you need to police people which is more staff, and more expense. It's not worth it according to him since they drink pop and don't play as much because they can't afford the table time. Again, pricing yourself out of a market is never a good plan.

If this still isn't sinking in, I can break this down a little.

I play 2-3 nights a week.
In 2011, I spent a little over $23,000 on pool.
$1850 of that was equipment (a gift for a friend, a 314-2 shaft, and some tools for me)
$3000 was a trip to Vegas.
The rest was table time and sundries.

How many people do you think can drop half of that a year? I don't mean among us, I mean how many average people? I'm not considered a top spender at my hall either. A "regular", and that's about it.

Now as a room owner debate if it's worth it to me to drop $6,000 on a TV table from the US Open? Is the math hard?

Please, continue to price yourselves out of the market and pool will return to a family-only, at-home game and not a sport.
 
whitewolf said:
Only for those who think in little bitty ways. There are creative ways in which to increase pool playing time and most pool hall owners I have seen on this forum neglect key money making ideas.

The Magic Cue in Germantown (the Asian owners took over and ruined everything by being stupid and cheap) flourished because:

It was in a good location and the pool leagues brought in tons of business on only two nights a week....of course there were plenty of pool tables.

On Monday and Weds nights you could shoot pool for $10 for 3 hours.

On league nights beer prices were reduced and cheeseburgers were 1/2 price for league members.

Magicians were brought in to entertain the non-pool playing customers eating at tables.

Friday nights were kereoke (sp?). Tons of action there.

Weekend tournaments were held EVERY weekend. The house put up lots of money. I have seen doubles tournaments with over 100 people. If you lost/got knocked out, you could still shoot pool on the tables assigned for the tournament. A lot of cheap ass owners will pull the tables at this point, running the customers out who are paying money to eat and drink (go figure). Free trips to Bermuda were given away to the winners (I am sure the owners worked something out with the travel agencies - creative, huh?). Point is - can you only imagine how much money 100 players will bring in over a 4 hour period. Most owners' brains couldn't even come close to imagining this. They think in little terms.

Another pool hall (Champions in Rockville) used to have the Big Rack (pay $5 and get a chance to draw into 4 people trying to break and run out a nine ball rack. I have seen over $1,000 won as the pot keeps building up each week if nobody runs out. This would draw about 30-40 players in.

The Magic Cue held wet teashirt contests in the summer. Reduced beer and food prices. 200 people however easily made up the margin.

Then the Asians took over and greatly reduced all of these benefits. The hamburgers went from Agnus to dog meat. Things went down so fast after the leagues started leaving and going elsewhere the place went out of business (bought out by HardTimes which is just as stupid).
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Everything you say is all taken into account in my statement. No matter how you turn it you will hit a max and that is it, there are only so many peak hours in the day. Many things also require investment and may actually even if successful quickly hit a point of "Diminishing returns". You can't build a business of constant evolving gimmicks. The core business has to be what you depend on. Gimmicks come and go, some do well some fall on their face but most are short term. I would not invest in a business that depended on me coming up with the next gimmick to keep the doors open. The core business is what matters, the rest is just fluff and can not be depended on.
 
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Two wrongs

So to you two wrongs made a right? I understand what you are saying and why it happened but it happened well before Mackey and the rest of the bunch. Maybe the problem is too many controlling (or wanna be controlling) bodies in the pool management business.

Maybe Greg Sullivan is onto something with his tournament (DCC) and maybe if he does more that can take over as a standard. Might be a good thing.

ironman said:
Well here we go again and I disagree. take a good look at the old pro tour and what mackey did to the players and the game. he got away with a tidy sum and started a car business down In Florida I hear.
Earl Won 1 million and hasn't been paid.
Then comes the IPT and we all know what a bunch of BS that whole thing was. Remember the famous,"Left the checkbook at home"?
The players have had to dig, scrape, and worse in order to survive. The promoters have not been good leaders nor very good role models. So, they make deals to insure there are meals and gas money. i can't say that I blame them. They were taught well.
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Pool suffers because the industry does not support the growth of high school and college programs.

Pool also suffers because it is a BAR ROOM amusement. Pool needs to be in family friendly places.

In a world filled with video games, on demand entertainment, poker, and a plethora of other entertainment options pool has to evolve to survive. I don't know of anyone with sufficient resources to do what pool needs to survive.
 
macguy said:
Everything you say is all taken into account in my statement. No matter how you turn it you will hit a max and that is it, there are only so many peak hours in the day. Many things also require investment and may actually even if successful quickly hit a point of "Diminishing returns". You can't build a business of constant evolving gimmicks. The core business has to be what you depend on. Gimmicks come and go, some do well some fall on their face but most are short term. I would not invest in a business that depended on me coming up with the next gimmick to keep the doors open. The core business is what matters, the rest is just fluff and can not be depended on.
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So, let me get this straight: you would not invest in a pool hall that grossed $85,000 a month. Yes I know because they at one time were asking me to do the bookkeeping. I would say these earnings were over at a two year period. Try not to make me laugh with your gimmick analysis.
 
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