Having some pins made

Would you like some advice???
Don't do this. Don't embark on this project.
2,000 pins will cost you at least $5,000 and quite possibly a lot more.
You've been building for how long now??
Do you think that you know what attributes constitute a good pin? No offense, but do you?
If you did, you wouldn't be asking everyone what they think you should have made.
Good pins are already pretty easy to come by. In a pinch, I can make my own.
You're about to dump a ton of money on a product that you'll likely be stuck with.
Except for maybe the 10 or 20 to the person that wants something totally goofy made.
Would you like a tap with that?
Smart-a$$, yeah, I know. But consider this. Unless these proposed pins are made in
dimensional compliance with respect to currently established and readily available taps,
you're into yet another line of products.

PUT YOUR MONEY INTO YOUR OWN BUSINESS so you can learn what makes a good pin.
People will tell you things about what they want for this reason or that.
That's how rumors & lies get started.
Personal experience is truth, it never lies.

Hopefully, you'll understand why I'm telling you this, in this way.
I'm not the dream-squasher that you may perceive me to be.
Quite the contrary, I've seen this movie before and I know how it ends.
You certainly wouldn't be the first on this site who's spent big-bucks to have a product
made only to wind-up holding the bag. In this case, a very expensive bag.
There's a world of difference btwn mill-run nuts & bolts and cue connection pins.
Are you prepared for the additional expense of electro-polishing should you go to stainless steel?
The reason I ask is, even the slightest burr or unpolished surface of the pin will have
a detrimental effect on the shaft's threads. It will just keep getting more loose.
G-10 can be a tad abrasive also.

I know that you're trying to be helpful to the other CMs/C-Tecs here and with your new
job at the bolt factory, this seems like an ideal way to do it. Trust me, it's not but
your good intent is acknowledged.
What I see possibly happening is that you'll become hopelessly in debt and without
sufficient means to allow you to build cues. This can be a very expensive hobby.
Put the time & money into your cues and learning how to build them. Then, maybe in 5-10
years you'll have acquired enough knowledge on the elements of a cue's connection pin to
know how a good one is made and why it's made the way it is.

If everything I've said here has fallen on deaf ears, so be it.
I'd like to see you give this a little more thought. What can it hurt?
Am I the only one seeing this or just the first to say it?

I would heed KJ's advice and put a lot of thought into this before you go plunking down a bunch of cash. Making a bolt and making a precision pin are not the same thing. If a bolt is in tolerance and fits its good. The pin has to be precise on all dimensions and inter-related. I've never worked in a "Bolt shop" but I was a machinist for 14+ years. If you look at the lathes in the shop mostly likely they are all using Taps and Thread-Chasers. Neither guarantees concentricity.

If you get some of the pins from say Atlas you can see how they are made. I can just about guarantee they are done on a CNC lathe. One is by the undercut at the back thread and the second is the teet at the end opposite the center. These are done in one operation to ensure concentricity.

I have searched several times and I can NOT find Plug or Ring gauges so you would have to check them by first trigging out the dimensions then using thread wires. There is a guy on here named John Rocker, if I remember correctly his website has a pic showing the dimensions you'd need to figure out and check (although the pic was for Sanding Mandrels, same concept). Search for Rocket Cues. You are going to need to know things like minor and major Dia., Thread Class, Tolerances, types of metals (in Stainless Steel there is a wide range and yes the type does make a difference), will they need to be passivated, Electro-polishing, etc..

Make sure you know exactly what you're doing before moving forward.

We are all looking for find things cheaper. But, there have been several people on here that have taken a financial bath (not the mention the public ridicule) making/selling things without fully understanding what all is involved and how to verify the final product. If you do move forward I'd be interested in 3/8-10 and 5/16-14 pins.

Just a final warning, if you do not heed the advice given and just plunge forward, do not be surprised when people want their money back because the product is not up to par and you're sitting on a couple thousand dollars worth of stuff you can't sell.

It is not rocket science (no pun intended) and not that hard if you know what you are doing. Do your research. Know exactly what the final product should look like AND how to inspect them.
 
Seems like you need to get more education on basic cue making/repairs, and getting the video's from Hightower or Cue Components would help you a lot.

lol, maybe I should have made myself clearer.

I've been making cues for 25+ years. However, I do not make American pool cues, nor am I familiar with your particular joints, methods, and preferences.

Furthermore, I have made and designed many of my own joints over the years. In fact, I would hazard a guess I have a great deal more experience than most of the posters on here when it comes to joint design and manufacture.

I know exactly how to fit, or at least how I would choose to fit, any number of joints.

I am simply asking for a quick education on what you guys as makers and players prefer, what you look for and why, what particular pins are most popular and the reasons why etc..

To the op, I would say if you can get it done cheaply at work, do it. Cnc set up and volume production make manufacture impossible for the majority of part time cue maker/hobbyists. You have an opportunity to make exactly what you want without the usual expense. Take advantage of it :)

One final question, if anyone would like to help - what is the most popular cue joint used on american pool cues? I don't mean the most common on mass produced models, I mean is there a general consensus amongst accomplished players as to the most preferred type/style of joint?

Thank you and apologies for becoming more involved in this thread than I intended.
 
lol, maybe I should have made myself clearer.

I've been making cues for 25+ years. However, I do not make American pool cues, nor am I familiar with your particular joints, methods, and preferences.

Furthermore, I have made and designed many of my own joints over the years. In fact, I would hazard a guess I have a great deal more experience than most of the posters on here when it comes to joint design and manufacture.

I know exactly how to fit, or at least how I would choose to fit, any number of joints.

I am simply asking for a quick education on what you guys as makers and players prefer, what you look for and why, what particular pins are most popular and the reasons why etc..

To the op, I would say if you can get it done cheaply at work, do it. Cnc set up and volume production make manufacture impossible for the majority of part time cue maker/hobbyists. You have an opportunity to make exactly what you want without the usual expense. Take advantage of it :)

One final question, if anyone would like to help - what is the most popular cue joint used on american pool cues? I don't mean the most common on mass produced models, I mean is there a general consensus amongst accomplished players as to the most preferred type/style of joint?

Thank you and apologies for becoming more involved in this thread than I intended.

I don't think there is a general consensus but 3/8-10 and 5/16-14 seem to be the most common. 5/16-18 is also very common since you can buy the taps and threaded rod anywhere.

My personal preference is Uni-Loc but I have no plans to use it in my cues.

Here is a link to the different makers and the pin types they use.
http://www.predatorcues.com/images/available_joints.pdf
 
And then there's the oddballs, like Ray Schuler's joint. Early Samsara was similar. Can't forget the boat anchor that Schmelke uses. And the list goes on.
 
I don't think there is a general consensus but 3/8-10 and 5/16-14 seem to be the most common. 5/16-18 is also very common since you can buy the taps and threaded rod anywhere.

My personal preference is Uni-Loc but I have no plans to use it in my cues.

Here is a link to the different makers and the pin types they use.
http://www.predatorcues.com/images/available_joints.pdf

Thank you very much for the info and link. The start of my u.s.a. joint education (I'm sure there's a joke there) :grin:

I assume the 10 and 14 refer to threads per inch?

May I ask, if your preference is uni-loc why would you not use in your own cues?
 
Thank you very much for the info and link. The start of my u.s.a. joint education (I'm sure there's a joke there) :grin:

I assume the 10 and 14 refer to threads per inch?

May I ask, if your preference is uni-loc why would you not use in your own cues?



Yes, You assumed correctly, the 10 and 14 stand for the TPI. I've used 5/16-18 and 5/16-14 in a few cues, as well as uniloc, but I mostly only use 3/8-10 pins now. Everyone has their own preferences though.
 
Thank you very much for the info and link. The start of my u.s.a. joint education (I'm sure there's a joke there) :grin:

I assume the 10 and 14 refer to threads per inch?

May I ask, if your preference is uni-loc why would you not use in your own cues?

The parts are expensive and I'd have to buy the tooling as well. Never know though, one day I could decide to switch but it won't be any time soon.
 
The parts are expensive and I'd have to buy the tooling as well. Never know though, one day I could decide to switch but it won't be any time soon.

You haven't had to fight to get the shaft off yet....:D
As with everything, there are drawbacks. My buddy got one on his new duffern and it took both of us to take it apart, not just once but twice now. Then he has had it loosen and come apart also during a match....I'll just stick to my 3/8x10.... it works for me.
Dave
 
The most popular joint screw today is the radial pin.

The one that screws straight into wood?

You haven't had to fight to get the shaft off yet....:D
As with everything, there are drawbacks. My buddy got one on his new duffern and it took both of us to take it apart, not just once but twice now. Then he has had it loosen and come apart also during a match....I'll just stick to my 3/8x10.... it works for me.
Dave

As above, the one that screws into wood?

I can only see issues with this. Wood expands and contracts.

I would guess it must surely cause problems like these for many people?
 
Uni-loc

Uni-loc corporation makes 2 main kinds of joint pins. They make the Uni-loc, which is a family of similar metal to metal quick release joint screws and female inserts. The second is the Uni-loc Radial, which is metal to wood. Joey was referring to the Uni-loc Radial. It's my favorite too.
Dave was referring to the quick release one, which sometimes sticks together.
By the way, I refer to the Uni-loc brand Radial because there are similar, but not compatible, joint screws made in Asia and elsewhere. Most people prefer the Uni-loc version.
 
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And then there's the oddballs, like Ray Schuler's joint. Early Samsara was similar. Can't forget the boat anchor that Schmelke uses. And the list goes on.

Early Samsara's were 5/16X18 with a thin walled pilot. Schulers, .302X14 with a different insert for the shaft because the joint screw doesn't stick out that much. Similar to some Paradise cues I have seen. I can't think of his name right now but someone had some brass plugs made with a 9/16" o.d. head and the head was 3/8" long to accommodate these odd balls.
 
You haven't had to fight to get the shaft off yet....:D
As with everything, there are drawbacks. My buddy got one on his new duffern and it took both of us to take it apart, not just once but twice now. Then he has had it loosen and come apart also during a match....I'll just stick to my 3/8x10.... it works for me.
Dave

I tell all of my customers this, Once a month, they should take a cue tip with finger nail polish remover on it and swirl it around the inside of the brass insert on the uni-loc. This will keep it clean and prevent it from locking up. Most houses have both Q-tips and nail polish remover. OR, they can pay me 30 to unlock it cause they are lazy. Most common reasons for it locking twice, Dirty again and, or, the burr was not removed when it froze the first time.
 
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There might be one or two bastard sizes here.
This is from one of my old posts,
9/32X18 Jackson cues), 5/16X18 (Numerous makers), .298X14 (Mali),
.302X14 (It's George, Schuler, Paradise), 5/16X13 (One model by Brunswick),
5/16X14 (Numerous), 5/16X14 acme (Josswest and Michael Webb),
5/16 max (PFD). radial, Uni Loc, Radial ball screw, 3/8X8 acme (Guessing Wes Hunter), 3/8X8 standard (Certain Harvey Martins),
3/8X10acme (Tim Scruggs and Mike Gulyassy, 3/8X10 standard, 3/8X11 (Southwest, Murray Tucker, and a few more)
3/8X11.5 (Undersized by Blud), 3/8X12 (Tad), 3/8X14 (Bender and Omega),
3/8X14 undersized for Cuetec, 3/8X16, 7/16X10 (Joe Barringer), 7/16X11 modified, (Cog),
1/2X8 wood thread by a few, 1/2X13 Dufferin joint, Schmelke joint. Probably a few more,
Please note*
When ordering a cue with what you think is an odd sized screw that you or your repair guy doesn't have, Ask for an extra set of joint protectors because something is better than nothing.
 
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Project abandoned

Thanks for everyone that posted. I have decided to give up on this project mostly because everyone seems to be happy with what they can already buy and didn't have any real improvements to be made.

Thanks again,
 
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