Tribute Or Copy - Where To Draw The Line?

[JB Cases]

So after all of this debate about copyright and who is stealing whose idea's, and the ethics associated with said.... The e question STILL.remains from the original post in the thread.

Is it ok for an individual to sell a cue that belongs to him, here on AZBs for sale section, if that cue is a tribute or even a copy, so long as the seller doesn't try to misrepresent the cue? And if he does try to sell it here, is it ok for those of you who have such strong problems with these cues to hijack his for sale thread, knocking his sale?

That point has been lost, many pages ago.

In my opinion it's legally fine to do that. But it's morally wrong to make a copy of someone else's art and then put it up for sale.

As long as the guy is disclosing the details and not trying to counterfeit then there isn't much you can do. I think it's perfectly fine to start ANOTHER thread about it and go off on the guy if that's what you want to do. And the guy selling it or the cue maker should be able to defend what they are doing if they want to sell their copies.

I mean it's the world we live in where it's legal to copy a cue. Not moral but certainly legal.

In the cue world it's really small potatoes but in the fashion world it happens all the time and yet the fashion world survives and is worth tens of billions years.

I think making copies of other people's work and using their name to sell your own is distasteful. I think it's rude and it's immoral. On the other hand it's part of life and who are we to tell others what they can and can't do?

I mean it takes both kinds of people to make the world go around. It takes the artists and visionaries to make the originals and it takes the copyists to satisfy the demands of the world. There is NO HUMAN PROGRESS without copying.

None.

If anyone wants to dispute that then go ahead and try.

But along with it comes hypocrisy. Because while one person stands up to say that it's wrong to copy a cue design that same person doesn't think it's wrong to copy a person's playing technique. We are taught to emulate those we aspire to but only when it's performance but not when it's artistic? How does that make sense?

You make a cup and I make a cup. You put a heart on yours and I put a heart on mine. Later I put two hearts on mine and later still you put three hearts on yours. And so the design evolves

But on the human emotional level we are intensely attached to our ideas and our creations and we have this intense dislike of others taking our babies and doing their own versions of them. Some people feel that way. Others give their creations to the world and move on to something new.

So the answer is NO. People should not hijack a guy's thread any more than they would stake out a guy's booth at the Super Billiards Expo and protest design theft.

But if they want to open another thread and talk about it - go ahead.

 

[JB Cases]

Why should I have to call him? I am aware of EVERYTHING that goes on the sites I manage. WTF? You think he has plausable deniability? Its his company, its on HIM, not his webmaster, or whomever does the site.

Its bad enough he has MADE IN THE USA graphics on the cases from YOU. No where does it say Xiamen China on your stuff. But damn, he lists it as made in the USA to boot. No wonder you guys are peas in a pod.

Its not one sides, its the truth. My graphics were on his page and he falsely has made in the USA adorning pages with your stuff on it. NONE of it is one sided, its fact. No matter the excuse, its done and thats it. Whats he gonna do, offer me a free case?

BTW the image is the site with my SW graphic.

JV

Roy is going to call you to discuss this. Whenever he finds one of his images on another website without permission he calls or contacts them to have it removed.

I am sure your conversation will be interesting to say the least.

Had you called Roy when you found it then he would have removed it within minutes or as soon as possible.

Unlike you Roy has had many people working with him to maintain his site over the years and as he gets older it's harder and harder for him to keep up with it. Also unlike yours his is vast and has thousands of pages and images. Your site can be maintained by a six year old and in fact looks as if that is exactly the age of the person who created it.

As for the "Made in Usa" images where does it say that any particular product is made in the USA?

I don't see anything that says that any product on his site is made in the USA or anything. I see two little images as banner headers.

But on the JB Case page there is a direct link to my website where any customer can go to find out where the cases are made.

GTFcases.com explains where the cases are made. My youtube channel explains where they are made.

No one is trying to hide it Joe. And again this thread is about copying and tributes.

So lets get back to your precious image.

I guess it never occurs to you that it's possible to find an image through Google Image search that is unconnected to your site? I guess it never occurs to you that SOMEONE else could have lifted the image from your site and put in on their site and then google found that copy and Roy, or one of Roy's people, took it from there with zero knowledge that it was originally yours?

Now I said to Roy and I will say it publically, what Roy knows is that HE didn't create it so therefore he knows it belonged to SOMEONE other than him. But all of us have used images from others without attribution at one time or another.

Did you ask for permission to use the images you post in your avatar? I doubt that you did. Just like everyone else you find an image you like and you use it when you like.

Since you know Roy you should have called him. One simple phone call and the use of your image would have been discontinued immediately.

But you would rather harbor resentment than to give someone the benefit of the doubt. You would rather invent some nefarious scheme that involves Roy sitting at his computer directly pilfering YOUR site of it's graphics.

Which would be really stupid of him to do on purpose. He is a little smarter than that. Roy has more honor in the dirt in his toenail than you have in your entire evil being.

It must be tough on you to be a toadie. Never able to do anything on your own, never building anything of your own, always in Mark's shadow. That's a terrible way to live. I feel genuinely bad for you and I know you will find relief only when you die. Anyway I would like to publicly thank you for sharing Mark's great collection with us from time to time. Even though your efforts to build a website do look like the work of a first grader you have managed to show us some neat stuff from time to time. So even though you a lackey, you're a good one. Very good job Joe.

And also very good job on digging up this article on Paradise. Did you get permission to show it on your website? http://www.classiccues.com/cues/paradise.htm

I notice that you say not much is known about Paradise. If I were you I would invest in a Billiard Encyclopedia because they have a very nice article on Frank Paradise. Perhaps they would even allow you reprint some of it. Everyone purporting to be a Billiard Cue expert should own one.

 

[schmizz]

On a lighter note....I recently saw an episode of Peoples Court that concerned the copyright of images. The guy suing had his images used by a web site without his permission so he sued for compensation. The guy lost, because he never copyrighted his images. The judge told him that he could still copyright the images and then sue to have the images removed once the images were copyrighted. The person would at that point have to stop using the copyrighted images, but he would not get compensation for their use before they were copyrighted. If the person continued to use the images after they were copyrighted then he could sue them for monetary damages which would be based on proven loss and/or precedent. :idea:

 

[classiccues]

LOL. That's a flat out lie. You have certainly seen cases that were knockoffs or highly derivative. You love to talk about Whitten and you will stand there and tell the whole forum that you have never seen a knockoff of a Whiten being offered for sale? The sellers even go so far as to say Whitten style, Whitten look, as good as a Whitten........

No, the lie is yours. When I am in the sale section I do not look at case listings, except to reference prices of items I have. I do not look for knockoff products and do not open other threads I do not care about.

All these cases including Martin's are derivatives of similar cases made to hold other things. The point is that neither you nor anyone else plays the "knockoff" card on Thomas, Engles, Kelli, Schon, McDermott or any other case maker who made that style of case AFTER Fellini defined it EXCEPT me. Which goes to prove Brian's original point that favorites are played on this forum when it comes to who gets heat and who does not.........

John, I don't play the knockoff card on your cases either, because to me GTF being a tube case is not an issue. It would be hard to make this case and not have it look like a Fellini or any other case. Again, stop playing the victim.

No let's not leave it at that. Number one you don't know jack about me you arrogant jerkoff. You have no idea what sort of conversations I was in at the time with whom. I guess its too much for your tiny little brain to understand that at the time another company was ripping off the Whitten name and using it in China and they still are doing it to this day.

Number two you have no idea about my conversation with Jay Flowers, you were not there. I have his blessing to do a line of cases EXACTLY like his if I wanted to. I chose to do my style with a nod to his and created the name as tribute and protection. What good would it have done to advertise the connection/name and make it popular only to allow some other company to take it???

Number three, what you THINK doesn't matter. Have you ever said a word against Omega Billiards and the Omega brand of cues they sell? Not that I can see. Now Omega was a REAL brand of high end cue. Not a nickname like Flowers. Have I ever seen you say anything against Palmer USA? Not to my knowledge. "Flowers" is not a BRAND and never was.

I am not aware that Omega or any company rips anyone. I do not concern myself with other vendors. Obviously what I think does matter, or you wouldn't be here.

Well we are talking about copies and knockoffs. What you think of me personally has no bearing. In six weeks you can tell me to my face whatever you think I should be called. I don't expect you to be the spineless mealy mouthed weasel who pretends to be cool with me in person that you have been for the past decade whenever you see me in person. Unlike you when I make peace with someone then it's real. I don't act friendly in person and then come on public forums and act like a major jerkoff as you do constantly.

When you see me at the show I will ask you flat out to repeat the things you have taken the liberty to say to me. No 'hey how ya doing, gee AZB is crazy huh.....nonsense" Nope Joe, you get to get your chance to be insulting and vile to me in person. Then we can see where it goes from there. I have had enough of your brand, and it's definitely a solid brand, of jerk.

John, all the issues you and I have had in the past were of no consequence. But believe me, there is nothing I have said here that I would be offended to debate in person. What do you want me to say to you, that I believe you went to China to exploit the labor force. Better reread all the posts John, even these, only one of us has actually responded with name calling.

JV

 

[classiccues]

Roy is going to call you to discuss this. Whenever he finds one of his images on another website without permission he calls or contacts them to have it removed.

I am sure your conversation will be interesting to say the least.

Had you called Roy when you found it then he would have removed it within minutes or as soon as possible..

What conversation, you know what I would expect. Sorry, I should have seen it, it will be removed. Have a nice day. Anything more than that and I guess we'll see where it goes.

Unlike you Roy has had many people working with him to maintain his site over the years and as he gets older it's harder and harder for him to keep up with it. Also unlike yours his is vast and has thousands of pages and images. Your site can be maintained by a six year old and in fact looks as if that is exactly the age of the person who created it...

The excuse card, and an insult. LOL John, you don't get it. When someone points out the obvious infraction you go off when your or your pals are clearly in the wrong. I wouldn't go touting site design, if I was you.

As for the "Made in Usa" images where does it say that any particular product is made in the USA?

I don't see anything that says that any product on his site is made in the USA or anything. I see two little images as banner headers. ...

John, are you really going to go here. You have TWO made in the USA graphics on products not made in the USA. They don't say anywhere on the page their true origin, are you really going to go there? This is why people don't like you, you give your friends passes. But I shouldn't be surprised.

But on the JB Case page there is a direct link to my website where any customer can go to find out where the cases are made.

GTFcases.com explains where the cases are made. My youtube channel explains where they are made.

No one is trying to hide it Joe. And again this thread is about copying and tributes. ...

If the customer wants to bother. What if he doesn't click your page or GTF's? The logical conclusion would be they were made in the USA. John call it anything you want, but call it what it is, it is deception.

So lets get back to your precious image.

I guess it never occurs to you that it's possible to find an image through Google Image search that is unconnected to your site? I guess it never occurs to you that SOMEONE else could have lifted the image from your site and put in on their site and then google found that copy and Roy, or one of Roy's people, took it from there with zero knowledge that it was originally yours?

Now I said to Roy and I will say it publically, what Roy knows is that HE didn't create it so therefore he knows it belonged to SOMEONE other than him. But all of us have used images from others without attribution at one time or another....

More excuses. (Pass to friend)

Did you ask for permission to use the images you post in your avatar? I doubt that you did. Just like everyone else you find an image you like and you use it when you like..

My image is not promoting a sale, the poster was PAID for, and is hanging in a public place. Not even close to hijacking someone elses creation. But knowing that you have made cases featuring images from schools, and cartoons, I should not be surprised that you are trying to make this comparison.

Since you know Roy you should have called him. One simple phone call and the use of your image would have been discontinued immediately.

But you would rather harbor resentment than to give someone the benefit of the doubt. You would rather invent some nefarious scheme that involves Roy sitting at his computer directly pilfering YOUR site of it's graphics.

Which would be really stupid of him to do on purpose. He is a little smarter than that. Roy has more honor in the dirt in his toenail than you have in your entire evil being...

First, I shouldn't have to. Second, I don't harbor resentment, I was stating a fact, and since the thread went into copyrighting it was a LEGITIMATE experience / sample that could be shown.

Last line, not even close.

It must be tough on you to be a toadie. Never able to do anything on your own, never building anything of your own, always in Mark's shadow. That's a terrible way to live. I feel genuinely bad for you and I know you will find relief only when you die. Anyway I would like to publicly thank you for sharing Mark's great collection with us from time to time. Even though your efforts to build a website do look like the work of a first grader you have managed to show us some neat stuff from time to time. So even though you a lackey, you're a good one. Very good job Joe....

The above paragraph is very laughable. You've been living off other peoples work for years and I am the toadie, lol. You don't even build the cases under your name now. Again, your website, not that good, so I wouldn't go there.

And also very good job on digging up this article on Paradise. Did you get permission to show it on your website? http://www.classiccues.com/cues/paradise.htm

I notice that you say not much is known about Paradise. If I were you I would invest in a Billiard Encyclopedia because they have a very nice article on Frank Paradise. Perhaps they would even allow you reprint some of it. Everyone purporting to be a Billiard Cue expert should own one.

The difference is we tried to find someone who could claim ownership of the article. Since we couldn't find the remaining company, or if anyone had taken ownership of these articles, so we posted it. If someone comes forward, we'll be glad to abide by what they ask. See unlike Roy, I did my due dilligence.

JV

 

[JB Cases]

No, the lie is yours. When I am in the sale section I do not look at case listings, except to reference prices of items I have. I do not look for knockoff products and do not open other threads I do not care about.

Yeah ok, if you say so.

John, I don't play the knockoff card on your cases either, because to me GTF being a tube case is not an issue. It would be hard to make this case and not have it look like a Fellini or any other case. Again, stop playing the victim.

I said plenty of others have played the knockoff card. You just play the racist/bigot/hypocrite card constantly.

I am not aware that Omega or any company rips anyone. I do not concern myself with other vendors. Obviously what I think does matter, or you wouldn't be here.

Wouldn't be where? Obviously you are being a hypocrite by continuing to talk about the J.Flowers brand as if it infringes on Jay Flowers' cases and yet you have nothing to say about Omega and Palmer. Don't care about other vendors? Then why say anything about me?

John, all the issues you and I have had in the past were of no consequence. But believe me, there is nothing I have said here that I would be offended to debate in person. What do you want me to say to you, that I believe you went to China to exploit the labor force. Better reread all the posts John, even these, only one of us has actually responded with name calling.

JV

I don't want you to say anything at all. You have called me plenty of "names" in the past Joe including saying that I am partially responsible for murders that the Chinese government commits upon it's citizens. You have played the China card constantly while giving EVERYONE else a free pass.

So like I said, you are a hypocrite, and an evil one at that in my opinion.

 

[classiccues]

Yeah ok, if you say so.

I do.

I said plenty of others have played the knockoff card. You just play the racist/bigot/hypocrite card constantly.

No, you said YOU and others. I do not. LOL Bigot, lol.. you can throw that word around all you want, but someone who prefers to spend money in USA made goods, touts American craftsmanship, is not a bigot. Even if they go out of their way to show faults in other countries. Sorry, not even CLOSE.

Wouldn't be where? Obviously you are being a hypocrite by continuing to talk about the J.Flowers brand as if it infringes on Jay Flowers' cases and yet you have nothing to say about Omega and Palmer. Don't care about other vendors? Then why say anything about me?.

Omega isn't here saying he doesn't copy, Palmer not here either. BTW Palmer isn't making Palmer style cues. The few I have seen on ebay, if anything were SW knock offs. You bring it on yourself.

I don't want you to say anything at all. You have called me plenty of "names" in the past Joe including saying that I am partially responsible for murders that the Chinese government commits upon it's citizens. You have played the China card constantly while giving EVERYONE else a free pass.

So like I said, you are a hypocrite, and an evil one at that in my opinion.

If I have ever fired back a name, its was only in retalliation, and its very rare. I play the China card, because it's true. I don't give anyone a free pass. If Omega, Palmer, Lucy Lui, or whomever started a thread or tried to protect the ability to copy / steal from USA companies, I'd be in that thread to. Or if they tried to say we manufacture in China because we love Lotus blossom, and not say well its really for the low wages. I'd rip them a new one for that. Bet on it.

John, now I went out to the FS section and saw some knock offs. Now I noticed a guy who sells a lot of GTF/Sterling cases had a few Vincitores.. YOUR response wasn't in there. Why? Maybe you didn't see the thread, I'll give you a pass.

BTW Vincitore knocks off everyones case and NO one should by them. I don't even care about the knocking off part, they are just cheap.

JV

 

[JB Cases]

What conversation, you know what I would expect. Sorry, I should have seen it, it will be removed. Have a nice day. Anything more than that and I guess we'll see where it goes.

Well that will be between you and Roy. Only one of you is a man about these things and it isn't you.

The excuse card, and an insult. LOL John, you don't get it. When someone points out the obvious infraction you go off when your or your pals are clearly in the wrong. I wouldn't go touting site design, if I was you.

No, there was no indication that he was clearly in the wrong. He found a graphic with the words SouthWest. For all you know someone could have taken it and included it in a collection of clip arts that Roy came across.

This could be ANYTHING to do with South West culture, South West airlines, South West art, typing in the words south and west could have brought this image up in any number of ways.

You just ASS-UME that Roy maliciously took it from YOU. And instead of being courteous and giving him the benefit of the doubt you harbor this ill will and call him a thief over a silly little image that carries no copyright notice embedded in it. You are smart enough, just barely, to understand how the web works.

When you could have called him and had it taken care of in five minutes.

As for the design yours is stuck in 1993. And it appears as if you biggest inventory items are "out of stock" and "check back later". I wouldn't be so crazy over an image made with two words with a little glow effect added. Something that any five year old can do on their phone.

John, are you really going to go here. You have TWO made in the USA graphics on products not made in the USA. They don't say anywhere on the page their true origin, are you really going to go there? This is why people don't like you, you give your friends passes. But I shouldn't be surprised.

Yeah, I am going there. Nothing on the page says that any particular product is Made in America. BUT I also told Roy that I didn't think it was necessary to have those graphics there at all. As you know I have always advocated abolishing Made in XXX altogether because I think it sends the wrong message. So no free pass for Roy.

If the customer wants to bother. What if he doesn't click your page or GTF's? The logical conclusion would be they were made in the USA. John call it anything you want, but call it what it is, it is deception.

If any customer purchases one of our cases and he was confused about the country of origin then he is free to return the product for a 100% refund if the country of origin is important to him. No one is being deceived here Joe.

More excuses. (Pass to friend)

Nope. Logical reasons. Something beyond your intelligence level.

My image is not promoting a sale, the poster was PAID for, and is hanging in a public place. Not even close to hijacking someone elses creation. But knowing that you have made cases featuring images from schools, and cartoons, I should not be surprised that you are trying to make this comparison.

Sorry that doesn't give you the right to copy it and display it elsewhere. As I said you don't understand how copyright works. Yes I used some images like Mighty Mouse and a couple University logos at the behest of my customers. You don't understand the concept of fair use in that case. I don't advertise those items for general sale nor do I use copyrighted images to sell my product. I put images that my customers send me on the products that they ask me to build. Maybe someday someone will come to me and claim infringement and should that day come then I will handle it accordingly.

First, I shouldn't have to. Second, I don't harbor resentment, I was stating a fact, and since the thread went into copyrighting it was a LEGITIMATE experience / sample that could be shown.

Yes, you should have to. You live under the false assumption that someone would know that this is YOUR image if they found it floating on the web somewhere. The thing grownups do when they find their images being used by someone else is to call that someone and see about getting them removed.

The above paragraph is very laughable. You've been living off other peoples work for years and I am the toadie, lol. You don't even build the cases under your name now. Again, your website, not that good, so I wouldn't go there.

Whose work have I been living off of? Come on Joe, lay it out. Whose "work" am I living off of? Examples?

Every case I have ever made has been better built than any other similar case maker's products. Way better, not just a little better. So while I might work in a particular style I take it to levels the other guys can't touch. At all. In addition I create new ways of doing things that no one has ever seen before. So please save your bullshit. Everyone in this business who knows you knows you lick Mark's boots.

Tell us what on this website that YOU actually own Joe? http://www.classiccues.com/ (other than those awesome glowing text images)

And this, this could have been a contender for website design of the year in 1992.

Did you get permission for those awesome blinking star gifs and that little guy screaming "look" is just amazingly professional.

The difference is we tried to find someone who could claim ownership of the article. Since we couldn't find the remaining company, or if anyone had taken ownership of these articles, so we posted it. If someone comes forward, we'll be glad to abide by what they ask. See unlike Roy, I did my due dilligence.

JV

Well let me explain how this works. If you can't find the owner it still doesn't give you the right to use it. You claim that that you tried to find the copyright owners but actually you stated who owns it in your description. Tom Fox was the author and you know what magazine you lifted it from.

Now if I didn't already know you as a liar I would give you the benefit of the doubt and say you might have looked around for permission to reprint it but since I know you have no problem lying I am going to simply say I don't believe you. However it's easy to say since there isn't any way to prove otherwise is there?

Of course by now certainly no one will care and you're safe. But you knew that when you posted it didn't you?

 

[Mr. Wilson]

The name calling and etc is close to bans.

Keep it up.

 

[JB Cases]

I do.

And, you lie often in regards to me so don't feel bad when I say I don't believe you.

No, you said YOU and others. I do not. LOL Bigot, lol.. you can throw that word around all you want, but someone who prefers to spend money in USA made goods, touts American craftsmanship, is not a bigot. Even if they go out of their way to show faults in other countries. Sorry, not even CLOSE.

No Joe your bigotry has manifested itself in many ways. As has your hypocrisy. For example when you hired illegal immigrant labor for your construction company. Really supporting American there weren't you?

Omega isn't here saying he doesn't copy, Palmer not here either. BTW Palmer isn't making Palmer style cues. The few I have seen on ebay, if anything were SW knock offs. You bring it on yourself.

I am saying I don't copy. Show me a case where I have copied any design without changing it and making it better?

Michael Huang posts here, you know exactly who he is. The only reason you don't say anything to him is because he has never dared to call you on your BS. He is much smarter than me preferring to let you show your ass without feeling the need to tell you cover it. If he EVER disputed some of the ignorant and bigoted and racist things you have said about China and Asians then you'd be ALL OVER HIM with your slurs and mudslinging.

If I have ever fired back a name, its was only in retalliation, and its very rare. I play the China card, because it's true. I don't give anyone a free pass. If Omega, Palmer, Lucy Lui, or whomever started a thread or tried to protect the ability to copy / steal from USA companies, I'd be in that thread to. Or if they tried to say we manufacture in China because we love Lotus blossom, and not say well its really for the low wages. I'd rip them a new one for that. Bet on it.

Nonsense. The record shows you as one of the biggest jerks online in the pool forums. Do we need to to start publishing your RSB days as well to show people what you are really like when the forum isn't moderated and you can get away with whatever you want?

John, now I went out to the FS section and saw some knock offs. Now I noticed a guy who sells a lot of GTF/Sterling cases had a few Vincitores.. YOUR response wasn't in there. Why? Maybe you didn't see the thread, I'll give you a pass.

I don't go into people's threads and knock them for carrying knockoffs. I did it a few times and realized that it's not only futile it's not really kosher to beat up on the poor slobs just trying to make a few bucks for lunch money on the side. They just buy and sell what's on the market I can't really fault them.

BTW Vincitore knocks off everyones case and NO one should by them. I don't even care about the knocking off part, they are just cheap.

JV

That is the most intelligent thing you have said in a decade. It's so smart I am certain you just copied it from someone else.

 

[JB Cases]

The name calling and etc is close to bans.

Keep it up.

Sorry, I will stop.

 

[Quesports]

And start again, LOL!

 

[classiccues]

Well that will be between you and Roy. Only one of you is a man about these things and it isn't you.

Yeah ok. Wasn't me that stole the image.

No, there was no indication that he was clearly in the wrong. He found a graphic with the words SouthWest. For all you know someone could have taken it and included it in a collection of clip arts that Roy came across.

This could be ANYTHING to do with South West culture, South West airlines, South West art, typing in the words south and west could have brought this image up in any number of ways..

Lets see if it adds up, South West. Logo used for selling cues, by another website. Ends up on ANOTHER web site selling... cues? Strange coincidence, right? Could have happened, yeah and you know what could have happened.. his web guy goes into a graphics program and somehow makes an identical logo, with identical colors, and with the identical layout... yeah could have happened....

You just ASS-UME that Roy maliciously took it from YOU. And instead of being courteous and giving him the benefit of the doubt you harbor this ill will and call him a thief over a silly little image that carries no copyright notice embedded in it. You are smart enough, just barely, to understand how the web works.

When you could have called him and had it taken care of in five minutes...

First, I didn't assume anything, I bought up the example as a question of copyright. YOU have made it into the issue it is. Thats it, plain and simple.

As for the design yours is stuck in 1993. And it appears as if you biggest inventory items are "out of stock" and "check back later". I wouldn't be so crazy over an image made with two words with a little glow effect added. Something that any five year old can do on their phone....

Thats ok, but they didn't. Stuck in 1993 and your copying the look of cases from 1978, what point are you trying to make?

Yeah, I am going there. Nothing on the page says that any particular product is Made in America. BUT I also told Roy that I didn't think it was necessary to have those graphics there at all. As you know I have always advocated abolishing Made in XXX altogether because I think it sends the wrong message. So no free pass for Roy. ....

You want to abolish (made in xxx) it because it sends the wrong message which is the TRUTH where something is made. I'll tell you this, when you have to pay what a US company would have to pay in EQUAL US dollars then I agree, we can get rid the the Made in xxx label. However people who have some sort of pride in their country might want to have it. Is it a wonder that when a US company makes a product they have stickers that are sizable that says made in the US. Look at the sticker you provide, its smaller than a dime and easily removable. Make no mistake, you want to get rid of that sticker because there is a chance that sticker is costing you money.

If any customer purchases one of our cases and he was confused about the country of origin then he is free to return the product for a 100% refund if the country of origin is important to him. No one is being deceived here Joe.

As you said earlier, thats your take. But again a reasonable inference can be drawn by the lack of labeling to the true origin, vs what jumps out in your face when you click on the page. Logical reasoning.

Sorry that doesn't give you the right to copy it and display it elsewhere. As I said you don't understand how copyright works. Yes I used some images like Mighty Mouse and a couple University logos at the behest of my customers. You don't understand the concept of fair use in that case. I don't advertise those items for general sale nor do I use copyrighted images to sell my product. I put images that my customers send me on the products that they ask me to build. Maybe someday someone will come to me and claim infringement and should that day come then I will handle it accordingly..

Did you make money off the logo use, thats all they are going to care about. Thats why those companies and schools have licensing agreements already in place. You have gone on record to your belief in using these images, so we already know your feelings on that, its a very typical view to the Chinese in general.

Yes, you should have to. You live under the false assumption that someone would know that this is YOUR image if they found it floating on the web somewhere. The thing grownups do when they find their images being used by someone else is to call that someone and see about getting them removed. ..

Again, you're incorrect. I should not have to police the entire internet for my pictures / graphics. If I run across one, then I will handle it. Now keep in mind I didn't say anything, until a copyright thread was presented. (not entirely true, I have mentioned it in other threads, I just don't think anyone picked up on it) Of course you want everyone to believe its just coincidence that a graphic on a cue page ended up on another cue page on a competitors site. Just like you want everyone to believe you went to China because you like fried rice and not because it was to set up a more profitable shop.

Whose work have I been living off of? Come on Joe, lay it out. Whose "work" am I living off of? Examples?

Every case I have ever made has been better built than any other similar case maker's products. Way better, not just a little better. So while I might work in a particular style I take it to levels the other guys can't touch. At all. In addition I create new ways of doing things that no one has ever seen before. So please save your bullshit. Everyone in this business who knows you knows you lick Mark's boots.

Tell us what on this website that YOU actually own Joe? http://www.classiccues.com/ (other than those awesome glowing text images)..

Stop tooting your own horn, its laughable. You are a reverse engineering king, no doubt about it. So YOU save the BS. About 50% of the current listings are mine, not that its any of your business.

And this, this could have been a contender for website design of the year in 1992.

Did you get permission for those awesome blinking star gifs and that little guy screaming "look" is just amazingly professional.?

BTW yes I did. They were from a free GIF site and I asked in 2001 when I took the images. But thanks for asking.

Well let me explain how this works. If you can't find the owner it still doesn't give you the right to use it. You claim that that you tried to find the copyright owners but actually you stated who owns it in your description. Tom Fox was the author and you know what magazine you lifted it from.

Now if I didn't already know you as a liar I would give you the benefit of the doubt and say you might have looked around for permission to reprint it but since I know you have no problem lying I am going to simply say I don't believe you. However it's easy to say since there isn't any way to prove otherwise is there?

Of course by now certainly no one will care and you're safe. But you knew that when you posted it didn't you?

Well I don't know Tom Fox, if I did I would have asked him. Again, I did my due dilligence at the time. The magazine has long folded. I don't care what you believe, and I do not have to lie. YOU on the other hand, well we won't get into it. I am sure there will be many other threads where we can point it out.

JV

 

[classiccues]

And, you lie often in regards to me so don't feel bad when I say I don't believe you..

I never lie in regards to you, ever.

No Joe your bigotry has manifested itself in many ways. As has your hypocrisy. For example when you hired illegal immigrant labor for your construction company. Really supporting American there weren't you?

Not a bigot, and the rest already explained.

I am saying I don't copy. Show me a case where I have copied any design without changing it and making it better?

Michael Huang posts here, you know exactly who he is. The only reason you don't say anything to him is because he has never dared to call you on your BS. He is much smarter than me preferring to let you show your ass without feeling the need to tell you cover it. If he EVER disputed some of the ignorant and bigoted and racist things you have said about China and Asians then you'd be ALL OVER HIM with your slurs and mudslinging.

I know Huang, and I just visited his website. So yes, you have many valid points. He doesn't call me on anything because he doesn't have to. BTW I called YOU on your BS, not the other way around. So Mike would have to post some BS first to start a thread that I would care about. He is welcome to dispute anyting he would like. BTW you're not smart enough to realize that you aren't disputing me, but the articles that I post. You don't like them, I don't care. You'ld rather I post sunshine and rainbows in regards to China but that doesn't hold well when I am trying to get people to buy American. Just like you are trying to get people to buy Chinese. I wouldn't expect you to link the posts that I have. But I have also shown I like the justice system there when its applied. So I don't talk all bad about China.

Nonsense. The record shows you as one of the biggest jerks online in the pool forums. Do we need to to start publishing your RSB days as well to show people what you are really like when the forum isn't moderated and you can get away with whatever you want?.

Yes we have all gotten into flame wars, no big deal. Can we publish yours also? No one is innocent in these discussions so it doesn't bother me. But in an unmoderated forum we ALL took advantage, even you.

I don't go into people's threads and knock them for carrying knockoffs. I did it a few times and realized that it's not only futile it's not really kosher to beat up on the poor slobs just trying to make a few bucks for lunch money on the side. They just buy and sell what's on the market I can't really fault them..

Well you can read it that way, OR well there is a customer handling our cases NEW, I better not say anything so we don't lose this customer. Which version is most likely the truth, mine.

That is the most intelligent thing you have said in a decade. It's so smart I am certain you just copied it from someone else.

John, first I call products as I see them. , In fact I have said numerous times that there are features in your cases that are good. I do not agree with the manufacting origin, or the way you treated other products in comparison. I would have taken a more tactful approach. That being said, I will never agree on your global economy theory because its heavily weighted to your current and past manufacturing practices. You'll never agree with my buy American philosophy, because its in direct contradiction to what you do. I am ok with that. BTW I am about due with a Chinese pollution thread... :wink:

Just between us, don't ever bring my name up in forum I don't post at. It will save you a lot of headaches in the future if you cease and desist in that practice. Just another example of your inablity to stay classy...

JV

 

[JB Cases]

I never lie in regards to you, ever.

And that itself is a lie.

I know Huang, and I just visited his website. So yes, you have many valid points. He doesn't call me on anything because he doesn't have to. BTW I called YOU on your BS, not the other way around. So Mike would have to post some BS first to start a thread that I would care about. He is welcome to dispute anyting he would like. BTW you're not smart enough to realize that you aren't disputing me, but the articles that I post. You don't like them, I don't care. You'ld rather I post sunshine and rainbows in regards to China but that doesn't hold well when I am trying to get people to buy American. Just like you are trying to get people to buy Chinese. I wouldn't expect you to link the posts that I have. But I have also shown I like the justice system there when its applied. So I don't talk all bad about China.

No Joe, I dispute your words. For example you said if you could push a button and kill 10 million Chinese people in order to have full employment in the USA you would do it. That didn't come from an article you posted, it was your answer to my question. The same Chinese people you pretend to care about their working conditions when you play the China card are the same people you would eliminate at the push of a button.

Yes we have all gotten into flame wars, no big deal. Can we publish yours also? No one is innocent in these discussions so it doesn't bother me. But in an unmoderated forum we ALL took advantage, even you.

Sure, I don't change my tune but you do.

Well you can read it that way, OR well there is a customer handling our cases NEW, I better not say anything so we don't lose this customer. Which version is most likely the truth, mine.

Huh? What in the world are you talking about. My customers don't sell knockoffs. They sell our original interpretations of classic designs OR completely original cases that no one has ever seen before.

John, first I call products as I see them. , In fact I have said numerous times that there are features in your cases that are good. I do not agree with the manufacting origin, or the way you treated other products in comparison. I would have taken a more tactful approach. That being said, I will never agree on your global economy theory because its heavily weighted to your current and past manufacturing practices. You'll never agree with my buy American philosophy, because its in direct contradiction to what you do. I am ok with that. BTW I am about due with a Chinese pollution thread... :wink:

Sure you do. Which is why you have been trying mightily to denigrate our cases and the people who buy them. Don't make me start quoting you from other recent threads. Hypocrisy always looks worse when it's evidenced with timestamps.

Were you "buying American" when you hired illegal immigrant labor to work for you? Is that what you call supporting America?

Just between us, don't ever bring my name up in forum I don't post at. It will save you a lot of headaches in the future if you cease and desist in that practice. Just another example of your inablity to stay classy...

JV

Headaches? As if you could ever give me a headache. Well I take it back because the 1993 blinking gifs you have on your site are sort of headache inducing. If there is a reason to bring up your name in any discussion anywhere then it will be brought up. Whether you post there or not means nothing to me. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

And be willing to press a button and condemn 10 million Chinese people to death in order to save a job in the USA. That's amazingly callous to put it politely.

 

[TheThaiger]

And be willing to press a button and condemn 10 million Chinese people to death in order to save a job in the USA. That's amazingly callous to put it politely.

And I thought he just didn't like elephants!

 

[classiccues]

And that itself is a lie..

Never, you always prove what I say to be the truth.

No Joe, I dispute your words. For example you said if you could push a button and kill 10 million Chinese people in order to have full employment in the USA you would do it. That didn't come from an article you posted, it was your answer to my question. The same Chinese people you pretend to care about their working conditions when you play the China card are the same people you would eliminate at the push of a button...

Thats right, I have a right to defend the American way, and say I would do it, regardless of how it would be saved. I have a right to say I'd drop a nuke in Iran if I thought it would benefit the US in some way. I don't pretend to care about anyone when I post those articles, its purely to show what goes on there.

Huh? What in the world are you talking about. My customers don't sell knockoffs. They sell our original interpretations of classic designs OR completely original cases that no one has ever seen before....

I'll slow it down for you.. one seller, sells a vincitore, has new cases by YOU. I can only assume he is getting them from you or sterling or whoever. YOU don't say anything.

Sure you do. Which is why you have been trying mightily to denigrate our cases and the people who buy them. Don't make me start quoting you from other recent threads. Hypocrisy always looks worse when it's evidenced with timestamps..

I don't need to denigrate your cases, but I can say don't buy Chinese and people who do so, should think twice. Again, none of this is not allowed.

Were you "buying American" when you hired illegal immigrant labor to work for you? Is that what you call supporting America?..

Already explained. Why you in China again? Oh thats right, love the people, and the culture... nothing to do with profits, just your love for all people.. lol

Headaches? As if you could ever give me a headache. Well I take it back because the 1993 blinking gifs you have on your site are sort of headache inducing. If there is a reason to bring up your name in any discussion anywhere then it will be brought up. Whether you post there or not means nothing to me. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

And be willing to press a button and condemn 10 million Chinese people to death in order to save a job in the USA. That's amazingly callous to put it politely.

I know, its easier to talk about someone behind there back, which is classic John Collins Barton Chin.. I would expect nothing less from you. So what, I'd be willing to sink the middle east into a big swamp if it would create world peace. Big deal.

JV

 

[JB Cases]

Yeah ok. Wasn't me that stole the image.

How do we know that? I don't you claiming copyright on your site? You know so much about copyright then you should know enough that you have to claim it.

Lets see if it adds up, South West. Logo used for selling cues, by another website. Ends up on ANOTHER web site selling... cues? Strange coincidence, right? Could have happened, yeah and you know what could have happened.. his web guy goes into a graphics program and somehow makes an identical logo, with identical colors, and with the identical layout... yeah could have happened....

No but it could happen that the person doing the website redesign looked around on the net and found your image not connected to your site and grabbed it.

That happens all the time. If your image is so cool then why didn't Roy "steal" all of them from your site if he was on your site to steal that one? Why not take all the cue names which Roy carries? Why wouldn't he take the Bill Schick image, why not the Lambros and other cues he represents? Why ONLY the SouthWest?

First, I didn't assume anything, I bought up the example as a question of copyright. YOU have made it into the issue it is. Thats it, plain and simple.

No you assumed a year ago that Roy deliberately stole the image from your website. And instead of making a simple phone call a year ago to clear it up you have held a grudge and whined about it vaguely several times.

Thats ok, but they didn't. Stuck in 1993 and your copying the look of cases from 1978, what point are you trying to make?

Well, for cases classic is cool, for websites it's not. Meaning you have NO GROUNDS to even begin to criticize anyone else's website design. In fact there is a site which lampoons horrible website design and if I find it again then yours is getting submitted. We are going to get you that award yet.

You want to abolish (made in xxx) it because it sends the wrong message which is the TRUTH where something is made. I'll tell you this, when you have to pay what a US company would have to pay in EQUAL US dollars then I agree, we can get rid the the Made in xxx label. However people who have some sort of pride in their country might want to have it. Is it a wonder that when a US company makes a product they have stickers that are sizable that says made in the US. Look at the sticker you provide, its smaller than a dime and easily removable. Make no mistake, you want to get rid of that sticker because there is a chance that sticker is costing you money.

Made in XXX is a marketing gimmick. No more no less. Hiring illegal immigrants when you stand on a "support American workers" soapbox....well I think we can all see that is.

Did you make money off the logo use, thats all they are going to care about. Thats why those companies and schools have licensing agreements already in place. You have gone on record to your belief in using these images, so we already know your feelings on that, its a very typical view to the Chinese in general.

No, I didn't make money off the use of the logos. The customer would have purchased the case with or without them. Just so you know it's perfectly legal for anyone to redraw any logo or any image and affix it to any personal item they want. Called fair use. They can't sell that item as an official licensed item, can't profit off the use. So when I redraw an image for a customer and affix it to a case then it's the same as if they did it. But if I paste a bunch of NFL logos on my site and offer to allow the customer to choose which one he wants then that is clear infringement.

Again, you're incorrect. I should not have to police the entire internet for my pictures / graphics. If I run across one, then I will handle it. Now keep in mind I didn't say anything, until a copyright thread was presented. (not entirely true, I have mentioned it in other threads, I just don't think anyone picked up on it) Of course you want everyone to believe its just coincidence that a graphic on a cue page ended up on another cue page on a competitors site. Just like you want everyone to believe you went to China because you like fried rice and not because it was to set up a more profitable shop.

Actually Joe, you are responsible to police the entire internet for your pictures and graphics. Your little glowing font carried no attribution. So the fact is that anyone who uses it has no way to know where it came from if they find it in the wild. By in the wild I mean that someone could have snatched it up to use in collection of images that they give away or sell. Someone could have come across it on your site and taken it to to use on their SouthWest Art site where it could have then been found by Roy or his web master. Without a copyright claim embedded in the image no one can trace it back to you.

You should really spend a little more time reading up on how the pros do it before making accusations. I know for a fact that Roy did not find that image on your site. He did steal it from you.

There is no way that the image can be traced to you by simply possessing that image.

No watermark, no copyright notice, no nothing. Not on the image and not on your website. Well if you don't care to put a copyright notice on your images using the copyright convention prescribed by law then don't get pissy when people take your images and use them without your permission.

Stop tooting your own horn, its laughable. You are a reverse engineering king, no doubt about it. So YOU save the BS.

I asked you for examples. Where are they? It's not hard to "reverse engineer" a cue case. They can be taken apart without tools in 30 seconds for some and in less than 30 minutes with the right tools for others. Not complicated to figure out. Reverse engineering is how progress is made Joe. How else does one know what needs to be improved?

About 50% of the current listings are mine, not that its any of your business.

It's not but thanks for letting us know.

BTW yes I did. They were from a free GIF site and I asked in 2001 when I took the images. But thanks for asking.

Um if it was a free GIF site then you didn't need to ask. Although.....how can you be sure that they had the right to give you those gifs?????? Maybe you inadvertently "stole" them from the real owners and have been using them illegally for 12 years.........



Well I don't know Tom Fox, if I did I would have asked him. Again, I did my due dilligence at the time. The magazine has long folded. I don't care what you believe, and I do not have to lie. YOU on the other hand, well we won't get into it. I am sure there will be many other threads where we can point it out.

JV[/QUOTE]

I am sure you did. Bet you spent hours on the phone tracking down the author and his heirs to get those rights to his story.....yes, you have to lie because the soapbox you are on is so shaky that if you just admitted that you posted the story without asking anyone's permission then it would disintegrate from the weight of the hypocrisy.

No one here believes you spent time looking for the people who own the copyright on an article in a billiard magazine in 1964. A man who hires illegal immigrants while espousing "Buy America" and "Keep America Working" can't be bothered with trivialities like that.

 

[Otterman]

To CLASSIC CUES AND JB CASES....

Gentlemen,

The OP asked a legitimate question about cues marketed as "Tributes" and where we should draw the line in accepting that characterization rather than calling them out as copies or fakes.

Your feud has no place in this thread. IMO, it has no place on a public forum at all, but that's not my decision to make or enforce. If you want to air your grievances on this forum, I suggest you start your own thread so that those of us who were genuinely interested in the OP's question are not subjected to your petty squabbles. Better yet, please take note of the AZBilliards private messaging function and utilize it to hash out your differences in private.

JB, I love your cases. Classic, I've enjoyed visiting your website for years. But this type of behavior on a public forum by people who (like it or not) represent the pool/billiards industry is bad for everyone who loves pool, and that includes both of you. I have no problem with spirited debate over an issue, and internet forums are ideally suited for that type of discussion. However, that's not what both of you are doing here. Please keep this fight between yourselves where it belongs and leave the rest of us out of it.

 

[JB Cases]

Never, you always prove what I say to be the truth.

Thats right, I have a right to defend the American way, and say I would do it, regardless of how it would be saved. I have a right to say I'd drop a nuke in Iran if I thought it would benefit the US in some way. I don't pretend to care about anyone when I post those articles, its purely to show what goes on there.

Please, If I wanted to and I though it was worth it I could print out your posts and bust you up so badly that no one would ever consider taking you seriously ever again on anything.

So what you are saying is that you post stories which you yourself have no idea whether they are true or not about working conditions in some parts of China for the purpose of what? To enlighten people about how bad the Chinese people have it before you commit genocide on them to put them out of their misery?

I'll slow it down for you.. one seller, sells a vincitore, has new cases by YOU. I can only assume he is getting them from you or sterling or whoever. YOU don't say anything.

Once again as I said I don't go into those for sale threads and rag on the sellers because they are only trying to make some lunch money selling what they can get from the importers. They are the lowest link in the chain. I might as well harangue the guy on Canal street selling fake Gucci bags. Really it's almost the same as picking on you for hiring illegal labor. Why wouldn't you take advantage of the opportunity to save money by not hiring Americans?

The only difference is that you claim to support the American worker whereas the guy selling fake bags isn't speaking out against copying while selling copies.

I don't need to denigrate your cases, but I can say don't buy Chinese and people who do so, should think twice. Again, none of this is not allowed.

Apparently you do feel some need to because you do it often.

Already explained. Why you in China again? Oh thats right, love the people, and the culture... nothing to do with profits, just your love for all people.. lol

I came to China as an employee for Sterling Gaming. On assignment to handle quality control and product development. While here I met a wonderful woman, we fell in love and got married. I started another case business and my wife and I had a daughter. So my family is here and my business is here. Of course having cheaper labor allows me the opportunity to pour a lot more resources into case making than I would have were my shop in the USA. I did own a business in the USA and employed 8 people. So here due to division of labor I can afford to spend extra people hours on the cases and provide a better product to my customers for less money than I would have to charge were my shop in the USA if I built to the same standard. As it is my customers know that they are getting a better product than comparable ones made in the USA for comparably less money. We aren't always the cheapest but we tend to be the best in side by side comparisons. So I am lucky that I am in China where I can afford to make a wide range of cases and afford to make the quality super high. It's a win for us and a win for our customers.

I know, its easier to talk about someone behind there back, which is classic John Collins Barton Chin.. I would expect nothing less from you. So what, I'd be willing to sink the middle east into a big swamp if it would create world peace. Big deal.

JV

Behind your back? You complained about me mentioning you on a public forum? Am I supposed to check the membership roster on all billiard forums before saying your name in conversation? Coming from a guy who doesn't have the adult courtesy to pick up the phone and call a fellow dealer in the same business to complain about a tiny issue that could have been resolved in five minutes that's a bit laughable. And to say that you would eliminate a significant portion of the world's population to achieve peace for the rest shows just how inhumane you really are.