APA Strategy

[Cory in DC]

I mostly agree with this and disagree strongly with putting up your best player when down 2 in higher level play. You have to win 3 matches, not 1! I almost always put up my worst remaining player when down 2-0. Several good reasons for this:
* The worst player of my remaining three will likely do even worse if playing in match 5.
* The other team may use the 2-0 lead as an opportunity to let one of their weaker players who doesn't normally play get to play.
* The other team may use the 2-0 lead as an opportunity to sandbag.

This assumes it's my put up in match 3, which is the norm since I always put up first and about half of opponents make me put up first when they win the coin toss. If the other team puts up, then I'll play the matchups, but my whole goal is to maximize the chance of my worst remaining player winning, since I'm usually in a position where I think the other two players can take care of themselves.

I probably shouldn't post this, since it's been pretty effective over the years...

Good luck!

Throw first, control the last 2 matches.

When down 2, do not throw your best player. Your 6 will end up playing their 2 so its a wasted match anyhow. Play whichever player you think matches up best with what your opponent will throw.

When up 2 do not play your best player. CONTROL the last 2.

When i played a roster like that 6 years ago i threw my 2 first every time. Yes you almost always go down 1, but when you and your team are use to the strategy it works nice. Reason being, teams almost always match up on the first throw. So she will be playing 2/3 most of the time. She has a chance to win those games. If she don't, no worries. you have three 6's left.

Good luck with it. The strategy about APA is my favorite thing.

 

[StuartK35]

I'm new to the APA this year. My entire team is new to APA as well. We do have two backup players on our team, but a core of 5 players have played each week. Our skill levels are 2,3,6,6,6.

From searching the AZB archives I see experienced APA players advising that during the playoffs if you win the toss, put up the first player. I've also seen experienced APA members in the non-playoffs make the loser of the coin toss put up first. Can anyone elaborate on why a difference in strategy?

Also, I'd like to hear any thoughts on strategy for picking who to match up.

Finally, should we build our team up to 8 players and have everyone show up each week? That seems to be more of the standard (instead of playing the same 5 each week), but it's not obvious to me why 2,3,6,6,6 is not a good combination.

You have to be careful being so top heavy in APA for sure. The way your roster is looking there isn't much room for folks to move up and be able to keep the same dynamic. The dream roster only lasts for so long. Believe me, it's happened to our teams here over and over. All of a sudden someone moves up that has been a key player for you with your roster as it is and then you can't play the winning combo that got you to the LTC/Cities ..hurts bad! Hang on to those 2/3/4 level players for sure! You need those players to be solid at their level and hopefully stay there.

 

[boyersj]

A VERY important aspect of APA is being able to assess ability within a skill level. Since rounding does not come into play into the APA calculation, a 2 can be quite frankly a 0-2.99. a 3 can be a 3.00 - 3.99, and so on. A 3.9 (who is playing as a 3) will beat a 4.1 (playing as a 4) with a game spot almost all the time.

Anyhow it is my opinion in a short match race (race to 3 is short). You really want to win the first match. Not only does that improve your odds significantly to win, but also there is an intangible benefit for team moral. Since you only have 5 players, and only 3 different skill levels, there isn't alot of strategy to be considered, at least on your part.

Equally important is to make sure you know who your "anchor" is and that they are the first to play when the other team gets 2 wins. This player will compete at the highest level when the match is on the line. It doesn't have to be your best player, although most times it will be.

You can't control if these players win their match but knowing who your lead-off and who your anchor should be really can go a long way to winning an APA playoff match.

I had a 5-person team win our division with a 7-5-5-3-3 roster. My 2 5's were very capable of playing at a 6 level, and one of my 3's was capable of having SL5 nights. As the 7, I would win about 80 - 85% of the time, as there was only one other 7 in our division and unless it is a VERY unusual night, a 7 will beat any other skill level (except another 7). Of course in playoffs my "very good 3" became a 4 and it was a problem, much as others have commented.

It is very nice to have duplicates of skill levels so incase someone does "go up" your roster is only affected by 1 player. Every team has a "strongest" 5 but the ones who win have flexibility to have many strong lineups.

Good Luck!

 

[Matt]

I think that the strategy varies depending on the makeup of your team and your opponent's team, but here are a few things to consider during playoffs or city tournaments:

1) As stated before, putting up first gives you some control of the last two match-ups, but that only matters if it comes down to it. More importantly, it allows you to adjust your strategy after the first and third match-ups taking into account the previous results and the other team's post.

2) Assuming everyone's skill level is correct (no sandbaggers), higher skill level players are usually the favorite over lower skill level players, even with the handicap. This breaks down as players get near the cusp of moving up or down. Players that say they are a favorite over a higher skill level player are either sandbagging, about to move up, or lying.

3) There will be under-ranked players in every handicapped tournament you play. Whether it's intentional sandbagging, more focus than an average league night, or a player that is only a match or two from going up, it's just the nature of a handicapped league.

4) You will be playing short races, which means anything can happen (same as league night, but easy to forget). Anyone can shoot above or below their skill level for a few games, get bad breaks or bad rolls, miscue, scratch, etc. You can do your best to play the odds, but you need a little luck to win. Unless your team wins every lag and breaks and runs every rack for 3 out of 5 match-ups every match (in which case you'll be over the handicap limit after a couple rounds), you can lose.

5) If you go down 0-2, you're in trouble. It's possible to come back, but you're going to need at least one good upset if your opponent plays the match-ups right.

6) Consider the experience of your players. Some players shine in pressure situations, some crumble. Play them early or leave them on the bench. If they do play, it's the responsibility of the team to make them comfortable.

7) Most importantly, have fun and help everyone around you have fun. If all you focus on is winning and going to Vegas, you won't have fun, and will eventually get fed up with the APA and either quit or cheat. I've been lucky enough to have teams play in nationals a few times, but every one of those tournaments could have gone the other way with one miss, one bad break, one scratch, etc.

I could go on, but that's enough... Good luck.

 

[scooter_banks]

APA 8 ball is a joke, it is like 9 ball trash hit your ball first and if anything goes in keep shooting. Great game for the worse player I guess but why not just make everyone use the same standard 8 ball rules and use BCA rules!

 

[boyersj]

APA 8 ball is a joke, it is like 9 ball trash hit your ball first and if anything goes in keep shooting. Great game for the worse player I guess but why not just make everyone use the same standard 8 ball rules and use BCA rules!

I don't think many people will dispuit this statement but not all areas have BCA (mine included). I came froma BCA/VNEA based area with very little APA membership. Better league format in most every scenario for the better player. APA found a way to bring a balance, and one thing I do like is a matchup against another player instead of round-robin format. Albeit it I do like ball count as a "big win" such as a 10-0 or 10-1 should be of higher benefit to the team than a 10-7 win. It is much harder to sandbag, much harder to justify sandbagging, and less beneficial than APA which is opportunity they truly should attempt to understand.

One of my best friend's is the local LO for the APA league and I have told him I wish there was BCA or VNEA around. APA is truly geared for the 'average" player.

 

[Matt]

APA 8 ball is a joke, it is like 9 ball trash hit your ball first and if anything goes in keep shooting. Great game for the worse player I guess but why not just make everyone use the same standard 8 ball rules and use BCA rules!

I also prefer playing 8 ball as a called pocket game, and I think most higher skill level players would agree. I can't remember the last time I've been the beneficiary of that rule, but know the frustration of losing to a weaker player on such a shot.

On the other hand, I understand why the APA does not play it that way. The APA is, first and foremost, a business, and they made a business decision to appeal to low and mid level players. Like it or not, I'd say that strategy has worked pretty well. Personally, I'm hoping to see the APA get more competition in our area, and have seen BCA start to sprout up (again), but it hasn't happened yet.

On a side note, our local masters league does play it as a called pocket game, even though APA nationals does not.

 

[whitewolf]

I also prefer playing 8 ball as a called pocket game,

There is always one like you in every crowd who thinks 8 ball is straight pool. I seriously believe that these people get a high calling out their pockets loudly like they are Jack Gleason or Minnesota Fats. They are secretely looking for adolation from the SL2s - SL4s. It makes them feel like they are in the Hustler movie. Give me a break, please.

I am a high SL and calling balls in 8 ball is so so stupid......almost as anal as the TAP league marking every ball that is pocketed.

This defeats the purpose of having fun.

 

[TheNewSharkster]

There is always one like you in every crowd who thinks 8 ball is straight pool. I seriously believe that these people get a high calling out their pockets loudly like they are Jack Gleason or Minnesota Fats. They are secretely looking for adolation from the SL2s - SL4s. It makes them feel like they are in the Hustler movie. Give me a break, please.

I am a high SL and calling balls in 8 ball is so so stupid......almost as anal as the TAP league marking every ball that is pocketed.

This defeats the purpose of having fun.

Are you saying you would rather that slop shots count? You know when playing call pocket you don't *really* need to call everything. At least that is how I have always played. I did however get in the habit of calling each shot so I dont leave the door open for a shark move.

 

[lorider]

APA 8 ball is a joke, it is like 9 ball trash hit your ball first and if anything goes in keep shooting. Great game for the worse player I guess but why not just make everyone use the same standard 8 ball rules and use BCA rules!

wow ! it took 25 posts before an apa basher posted.

are you talking bca or bcapl ? those are 2 different organizations.

speaking of 8 ball vs 9 ball. bcapl 8 ball is a point based game like apa 9 ball...except you call tour pocket in bcapl 8 ball.

so you prefer a league that allows you to hit your opponents ball first ..knocking your ball in to win the match ? sounds like the easy way out...something a banger would do.

i realize people have preferences for different rules and even different games. i prefer rotation games on a bar box. i do enjoy playing other games and even enjoy 9's but the former is my preference. you may prefer 14.1 or 1 pocket on a 9'. dont knock my preference and i wont knock yours.

btw i play apa and napa. they have entirely different rules and i enjoy playing both equally. its funny how i am categorized as a banger because i play apa but i am a serious pool player because i play in a call your pocket league.

 

[poolcuemaster]

Allways put up first and allways play the very best player on your team 2nd if you lose the first match, being tied 1 to 1 after 2 matches is much better than being down 2 to 0 and having to win the last 3. Control the last 2 matches and here in NC APA you can't play more than 2 players with a SL over 6 in any 8 ball match.. Just to clarify abie10 if you win 3 matches in APA 9 ball you only need 50 points because the 3 wins is the tye breaker.--Leonard

 

[Thunderball]

I skipped page two of this thread because everything you need to know can be found on page one.

Solid replies with experience behind em.

 

[Koop]

I mostly agree with this and disagree strongly with putting up your best player when down 2 in higher level play. You have to win 3 matches, not 1! I almost always put up my worst remaining player when down 2-0.

I've been saying this for a while and it usually falls on deaf ears. Completely agree. I hate having to put up my weakest player last in hopes he/she can pull it out. It's not necessary to put all the pressure on them.

Hope to see you in Vegas again one of these times.
Koop

 

[chefjeff]

wow ! it took 25 posts before an apa basher posted.

are you talking bca or bcapl ? those are 2 different organizations.

(snip).

I beg your pardon...post 17 is where I thought I did a nifty job of it.

Jeff Livingston

PS I bash the APA and also praise it.

 

[BasementDweller]

I mostly agree with this and disagree strongly with putting up your best player when down 2 in higher level play. You have to win 3 matches, not 1! I almost always put up my worst remaining player when down 2-0. Several good reasons for this:
* The worst player of my remaining three will likely do even worse if playing in match 5.
* The other team may use the 2-0 lead as an opportunity to let one of their weaker players who doesn't normally play get to play.
* The other team may use the 2-0 lead as an opportunity to sandbag.

This assumes it's my put up in match 3, which is the norm since I always put up first and about half of opponents make me put up first when they win the coin toss. If the other team puts up, then I'll play the matchups, but my whole goal is to maximize the chance of my worst remaining player winning, since I'm usually in a position where I think the other two players can take care of themselves.

I probably shouldn't post this, since it's been pretty effective over the years...

Good luck!

I haven't played in the APA but I can see how the strategizing would be fun (or at least interesting).

What I don't get about your method is: If the opposing team has their anchor still available and you put up one of your worst players while trailing 0-2, why wouldn't they just put up their anchor and finish you off? It seems like you are taking quite a chance here. I could see how you could maybe get away with this during the regular season, but once the playoffs roll around I wouldn't think you could play it this way.

Am I wrong?

 

[Koop]

I haven't played in the APA but I can see how the strategizing would be fun (or at least interesting).

What I don't get about your method is: If the opposing team has their anchor still available and you put up one of your worst players while trailing 0-2, why wouldn't they just put up their anchor and finish you off? It seems like you are taking quite a chance here. I could see how you could maybe get away with this during the regular season, but once the playoffs roll around I wouldn't think you could play it this way.

Am I wrong?

Not trying to speak for Cory but because I agree with him, my answer is, that's the risk you run. There is a good chance that could happen but most teams are afraid you're throwing up some secret weapon and don't want to run the risk of sacrificing their hammer and leaving themselves vulnerable the rest of the match.

 

[Matt]

There is always one like you in every crowd who thinks 8 ball is straight pool. I seriously believe that these people get a high calling out their pockets loudly like they are Jack Gleason or Minnesota Fats. They are secretely looking for adolation from the SL2s - SL4s. It makes them feel like they are in the Hustler movie. Give me a break, please.

I am a high SL and calling balls in 8 ball is so so stupid......almost as anal as the TAP league marking every ball that is pocketed.

This defeats the purpose of having fun.

One like me? Have we met?

I rarely slop in balls, so why would I prefer to count it when someone does?

I don't know anyone around here that interprets "calling a pocket" to mean "calling out their pockets loudly like they are Jack Gleason or Minnesota Fats", but maybe that's the way it is in your neck of the woods.

Most shots are obvious and don't need calling at all, so what it really translates to is the occasional pointing at a pocket or saying a ball number. Between two honest players, that usually means once every few racks, which is less actual "calling" of pockets than a rule set that enforces explicit designation of the pocket the 8 is going in.

If sharking is an issue, I suppose you would have to call every pocket, but I don't often see any real 8-ball action, just league play, so I can't say how often that would be a problem.

 

[OneIron]

I'm new to the APA this year. My entire team is new to APA as well. We do have two backup players on our team, but a core of 5 players have played each week. Our skill levels are 2,3,6,6,6.

From searching the AZB archives I see experienced APA players advising that during the playoffs if you win the toss, put up the first player. I've also seen experienced APA members in the non-playoffs make the loser of the coin toss put up first. Can anyone elaborate on why a difference in strategy?

Also, I'd like to hear any thoughts on strategy for picking who to match up.

Finally, should we build our team up to 8 players and have everyone show up each week? That seems to be more of the standard (instead of playing the same 5 each week), but it's not obvious to me why 2,3,6,6,6 is not a good combination.

I always liked to put up first because then you control the last two matches. This allows you to decide who plays your "horse". Judging from your handicaps, you desperately need a strong 4 or 5. Also, I don't think you can play more than two players who are 6 or higher.

Also, I always tried to put up a 4 or 5 first. If you put up low, the opposing team will simply put up the lowest player they think can win. If you put up high, the opposing team will throw up a 1 or 2 as a "sacrifice". And who knows, they may win with the big spot.

 

[whitewolf]

Are you saying you would rather that slop shots count?

Yes, for 8 ball and 9 ball, that is exactly what I am saying. It spices up the game.

Besides, when two top APA skill levels play, there is RARELY that much slop, not enough anyway to use OVERKILL by calling every shot to stay away from that occasional slop shot that occurs 1 in every 50 games.

Note the key work here: OVERKILL

 

[whitewolf]

Allways put up first and allways play the very best player on your team 2nd if you lose the first match, being tied 1 to 1 after 2 matches is much better than being down 2 to 0 and having to win the last 3. Control the last 2 matches and here in NC APA you can't play more than 2 players with a SL over 6 in any 8 ball match.. Just to clarify abie10 if you win 3 matches in APA 9 ball you only need 50 points because the 3 wins is the tye breaker.--Leonard

a very STUPID strategy, IMHO. The other team will just dump there SL2 on your SL7 (if they don't have a 7, or if their 7 isn't as good as yours) and you have waisted a bullet.

I am utterly amazed at captains who do this. Even in the playoffs they do this. Their strategy is to play their best 3 players to knock out the other team and let fate decide the outcome. But like I said in an earlier post, if you know the competition's players, you can be more strategic.