TheThaiger
Banned
I shoulda finished the thread! :grin:
God Given Talent
- Thread starter Pangit
- Start date
I shoulda finished the thread! :grin:
Well, with luck I will have another 50 years or so on the planet. So let's talk again in 20 years and see if the religion of "talent" holds up against the science of experience.
I am betting that by then science will have figured out a lot more about how the brain works and you find world class performers being built even more rapidly than they are now.
I am betting that by then science will have figured out a lot more about how the brain works and you find world class performers being built even more rapidly than they are now.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=24196
Don't know where I read it but he is supposed to be decent. No idea though, I could be imagining it. Ever since the ghost ball thread I am imagining all sorts of things.
Isnt natural talent and natural ability 2 different things.Talent would be something that interest you ,you do it and become what you are.
You see a man 7 foot tall does it make him a natural talent for basketball?
While the people at the top of there sport share the physical ability to become great.The time behind the scenes is where they mold into who they are.
You see a man 7 foot tall does it make him a natural talent for basketball?
While the people at the top of there sport share the physical ability to become great.The time behind the scenes is where they mold into who they are.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=24196
Don't know where I read it but he is supposed to be decent. No idea though, I could be imagining it. Ever since the ghost ball thread I am imagining all sorts of things.
He still aint winning .I'll make em bet so high the pockets grow shut.Btw you can back me.
While I agree with you on the whole concept of "natural talent" (I can put that in quotes right?), the idea that science will figure out how to build world class performers more rapidly - I disagree with.
If anything the different things I have read show that it is taking longer and longer to get to the world class level. I think the Talent is Overrated book pointed out how much older the Nobel Prize Winners are getting when they win their prizes.
So, science may point people towards more effective ways to train - overall, as the bar continues to rise it will take longer and longer to reach the top level in whatever endeavor it is.
If you take golf for instance (I know - I hate the golf comparisons as much as anybody but) it has been pretty much established that you have to start out very young and maybe 15 years later you can be ready for the big time. It wasn't like that a generation ago.
Nature vs. Nurture
The scientific literature out there is in conflict. If the scientists that study this stuff for a living can't figure it out, the folks on an internet bulletin board about pool aren't going to. :embarrassed2:
The scientific literature out there is in conflict. If the scientists that study this stuff for a living can't figure it out, the folks on an internet bulletin board about pool aren't going to. :embarrassed2:
Let's see the research studies that you're citing.
As I posted earlier, the top chess players have prodigious memories, which helps them to excel at the game. The following research is consistent with what I posted:
http://www.psy.fsu.edu/faculty/ericsson/ericsson.mem.exp.html
The Specificity of Experts’ Superior Memory
The most influential research of experts’ memories focussed initially on chess experts. In their pioneering studies Chase and Simon (1973) showed superior memory for chess positions by chess experts. Chess players ranging from beginners to international masters were shown a position from an actual chess game (such as the one illustrated in panel A of Figure 1) for a brief time (normally 5 seconds) and then asked to recall the location of all the chess pieces. The ability to recall increased as a function of chess skill. Beginners at chess were able to recall the correct location of about four pieces, whereas international-level players recalled virtually all of the more than twenty pieces.
To rule out that the superior memory of chess experts reflects a general superior ability to store any kind of visual information, Chase and Simon (1973) had chess players recall chessboards with randomly placed pieces (as illustrated in Panel B of Figure 1). With briefly presented random chessboards, players at all levels of skill had the same poor recall performance and were able to recall the correct location of only about four pieces—a performance comparable with that of chess beginners for actual positions from chess games. Further, Chase and Simon (1973) showed that when an actual chess position was shown using an unfamiliar notation (see Panel C in Figure 1), the chess expert was able to display a similar level of superior memory performance after a brief period of adjustment. This result implies that the superior memory of experts is not photographic and requires arrangements of chess pieces that can be encoded using associations to the experts’ extensive knowledge of chess. Since Chase and Simon’s classic study, investigators have shown that level of expertise is related to superior memory performance for representative stimuli in the associated domain, such as computer programming,, basketball, and dance, and that this superiority is mediated by increased knowledge and domain-specific skills (for a recent review, see Ericsson, Patel & Kintsch, 2000).
The most influential research of experts’ memories focussed initially on chess experts. In their pioneering studies Chase and Simon (1973) showed superior memory for chess positions by chess experts. Chess players ranging from beginners to international masters were shown a position from an actual chess game (such as the one illustrated in panel A of Figure 1) for a brief time (normally 5 seconds) and then asked to recall the location of all the chess pieces. The ability to recall increased as a function of chess skill. Beginners at chess were able to recall the correct location of about four pieces, whereas international-level players recalled virtually all of the more than twenty pieces.
To rule out that the superior memory of chess experts reflects a general superior ability to store any kind of visual information, Chase and Simon (1973) had chess players recall chessboards with randomly placed pieces (as illustrated in Panel B of Figure 1). With briefly presented random chessboards, players at all levels of skill had the same poor recall performance and were able to recall the correct location of only about four pieces—a performance comparable with that of chess beginners for actual positions from chess games. Further, Chase and Simon (1973) showed that when an actual chess position was shown using an unfamiliar notation (see Panel C in Figure 1), the chess expert was able to display a similar level of superior memory performance after a brief period of adjustment. This result implies that the superior memory of experts is not photographic and requires arrangements of chess pieces that can be encoded using associations to the experts’ extensive knowledge of chess. Since Chase and Simon’s classic study, investigators have shown that level of expertise is related to superior memory performance for representative stimuli in the associated domain, such as computer programming,, basketball, and dance, and that this superiority is mediated by increased knowledge and domain-specific skills (for a recent review, see Ericsson, Patel & Kintsch, 2000).
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=24196
Don't know where I read it but he is supposed to be decent. No idea though, I could be imagining it. Ever since the ghost ball thread I am imagining all sorts of things.
Great pic of MJ! I bet he never has to use the bridge.:thumbup:
I believe everyone is limited their talent/ability level. With dedication and hard work they can reach the maximum of this ability. And a person with great talent/ability who doesn't have the dedication to work will never reach his/her potential. If you talk to a coach in any sport you will find they say good athletes can be found with talent or made with work but great athletes are the ones with talent who are dedicated and willing to work at it.
I would one up you on this, I will let you have an actual pool player. A lower quarter player does not make the money in 2012 in the open division of the BCA, who shows no particular natural talent for the game but REALLY wants to learn and would be willing to commit to this. You can take ANY pro, you can put that player into ANY tournaments, any lessons, buy him any video, teach him any aiming method. I will bet against that player being able to make the top 3 in a WPA world championship within 10 years of the starting date of the commencement of the training.
I will take $1000, but I am pretty sure there are alot of people who when they read the above, you taking a person of no particular natural talent, and saying they can become a player capable of making it into 3rd place or better in a full field WPA event that includes all of the Filipinos, the Taiwanese, the top European players, the best America has to offer, you can probably get over $100,000 bet on this JB, if you REALLY want to. There are alot of people out there that know how hard it really is.
You know why I KNOW it is impossible? Because I could not do it, and I have way above average natural talent for the game, but the peak level that I could ever reach is not at that world class level.
You know an easy way to do this JB, I will bet YOU cannot do it, and I WILL bet WAY more then the $1000 I offered above. I have seen you play on videos, you have NO PRAYER to EVER make it to world class speed and become an equal to players like Ralph or Alex or SVB, I can guarentee you that and I will bet on it all day long, and I am sure a huge number of others will as well.
The Nobel prize example is an example of just what I mean. Science, in this case being greater access to communication, education, computing power, and money, has enabled the breadth of world class scientists to increase dramatically. Thus there are overall more championship caliber scientists than ever before.
The top high school track record in the usa beats the world record a hundred years ago....
www.jbcases.com
Lol. I love it. You project your own self- imposed limitations on me.
You see a few self made videos of me messing around with technique and assume you know all about me.
If I had one million dollars to bet with I would flat out bust you. And I would do it inside five years.
But what you and I can do in the meantime is play some? How can we play?
I will be in okc for several weeks. Let see who between us has more "talent".
www.jbcases.com
Being tall gives you a natural advantage in basketball it does not make you skilled.
www.jbcases.com
Go ahead and prove me wrong. Shock me, the entire AZB community, and the entire pool world.
They sure are and it is not because any one is a natural born case maker. It's desire, knowledge, experience and opportunity. People fiddling with better ways to do things inspires others to do the same. There is no casemaking gene.
www.jbcases.com
If I had the desire to become a world class pool player I would channel it into something more lucrative.
I will be happy to just play guys like you.
www.jbcases.com
I like to break pool into six categories:
1. potting (making balls at least 98% of the times), this requires knowledge of all pool secrets, including equipment
2. Position play , this is experience, the more you have the better you will be at it
3. Type of game, 8, 9,10 require some experience, one pocket the more experience you have the better you are
4 Luck , in my opinion crucial most important, i'd rather be lucky than good!!
5. Lastly individual health, ability to recall ball potting check list and recall memory, and focus in stressful situation. This could be GOD given talent; of which can be learnt through hard practice, and exercise
6. Complete time dedication to pool, no family, no girl/boy friends no work no worries, 100% dedication, free brain no regrets what so ever, other wise brain will have part of it blocked with worries and thoughts which will hinder ability to focus
There you have it...
Maybe the desire to become the best = natural talent
What is that bolded nonsense?
There is no such thing as luck, only a result or results of actions which may or may not favor you.
If 2 people play pool for infinitive time, do you think it's possible for one of them to get only 1 bad roll and the other one to get 25435432 bad rolls? No, they both get infinitive amount of bad rolls.
Agree with the rest tho.
What is that bolded nonsense?
There is no such thing as luck, only a result or results of actions which may or may not favor you.
If 2 people play pool for infinitive time, do you think it's possible for one of them to get only 1 bad roll and the other one to get 25435432 bad rolls? No, they both get infinitive amount of bad rolls.
Agree with the rest tho.
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