Quality of leather in cases

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ronscuba

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Is there a grading system for leather quality ? If there is, I think it would be worthwhile for case makers who use high quality leather to emphasize it when marketing their cases.

Went to my 1st SBE and was looking at all the different cases. It was nice to see and touch cases and I found there is no substitute to seeing and touching something in person. Pictures don't tell the whole story.

Some cases you could just tell it was high quality leather. Other cases it was not so clear. Some cases had thinner light weight leather, others thicker leather. I know weight is a concern in cases, but I imagine thicker leather has to be more durable and more expensive.

Some leather cases had a plastic look to them. I don't know if this was due to the quality of the leather, some kind of treatment done to it or if it was a requirement due to the carving/tooling.

John Barton or any other leather experts out there that can give some information ?
 
There are many different kinds of leather. It gets involved.

rawhide is not tanned and not considered leather

1 what animal is it from
2 what tanning method is used
3 what finish and/or dying method
4 what part of the leather

1 cow, steer, horse, sheep, snake, ostrich (the only bird we get leather from), lizard, calf, deer, bull, goat
2 vegetable, oak, chrome, oil, and others (vegetable is the only one suitable for tooling)
3 analine, semi-analine, drum dyed and others. many leathers are not dyed all the way through, many leathers are "painted" with dye after assembly, like with artistic tooling
4 full grain, top grain, splits, suedes, and others


That was off the top of my head so it is incomplete and may not be precise. But it gives you an idea. There are plenty of online articles on the matter. Google is your friend.


Different types of leathers are better suited for different types of purposes. So it gets even more complicated. Many selling and using leather are not even well versed in the matter.

As an example somebody was selling wraps. I asked what kind of leather it was. I was told it was "premium leather" which is meaningless. I asked no further and bought none.

If the leather you saw seemed plasticy it was probably an analine or semi-analine leather. These tend to wear very well, but are not suitable for tooling and are not generally as "luxurious".


Examples: My motorcycle boots are oil tanned, very tough leather. My Schott Perfecto motorcycle jacket is steerhyde, needs broken in at first but very wearable and durable.

Some will tell you that chrome tanned is "cheap" or that analine is "cheap", but it isn't that simple at all. Not at all.

If you want to buy something made of leather, and you are really concenred with the quality, ask what leather it is made of and why. If you aren't given a good explanation, don't buy it.

Just my opinion.
 
Thanks for the explanations Chopdoc.

It was great to see the variety of case styles, designs, quality levels and pricing. Basically, something for everyone. But I was very glad I did not purchase a particular case online a few months ago, because after seeing it in person at SBE, I would have been disappointed.
 
Is there a grading system for leather quality ? If there is, I think it would be worthwhile for case makers who use high quality leather to emphasize it when marketing their cases.

Went to my 1st SBE and was looking at all the different cases. It was nice to see and touch cases and I found there is no substitute to seeing and touching something in person. Pictures don't tell the whole story.

Some cases you could just tell it was high quality leather. Other cases it was not so clear. Some cases had thinner light weight leather, others thicker leather. I know weight is a concern in cases, but I imagine thicker leather has to be more durable and more expensive.

Some leather cases had a plastic look to them. I don't know if this was due to the quality of the leather, some kind of treatment done to it or if it was a requirement due to the carving/tooling.

John Barton or any other leather experts out there that can give some information ?

I think that the best tooling leather is either Herman Oak or Wicket & Craig. Some people may tell you different but go to leatherworker.net and ask around and I'll promise you that you won't find many that will argue with that. As veg tanned tooling leather is concerned thick or thin it's all the same price. I think people use the thinner because it's easier to work with when you have to bend it around tubes and bend it to make the pockets.
 
rusty
your leather is as good as i have seen
trouble is i don't see enough
in other words send me more cases

i really like your new partial tooled cases

my advice is,if you don't know leather ,know your case maker

rusty gets my nod
i hate to admit it,but i don't mind paying more
when i get something great
 
I think that the best tooling leather is either Herman Oak or Wicket & Craig. Some people may tell you different but go to leatherworker.net and ask around and I'll promise you that you won't find many that will argue with that. As veg tanned tooling leather is concerned thick or thin it's all the same price. I think people use the thinner because it's easier to work with when you have to bend it around tubes and bend it to make the pockets.

Thanks for the explanation Rusty. Interesting that thick and thin leather is the same price. I personally prefer thicker leather, especially in the straps, handles, etc.. Maybe I am just old school. Thick and heavy seems like I am getting more for my money compared to thin and light.
 
I think that the best tooling leather is either Herman Oak or Wicket & Craig. Some people may tell you different but go to leatherworker.net and ask around and I'll promise you that you won't find many that will argue with that. As veg tanned tooling leather is concerned thick or thin it's all the same price. I think people use the thinner because it's easier to work with when you have to bend it around tubes and bend it to make the pockets.

Rusty, I need to know what supplier charges the same for 10oz. veg tan sides that they charge for 4oz. All the tanneries charge increasing prices as the weight and grade of the veg tan go up.
Monty
 
to Rusty...

Rusty, I need to know what supplier charges the same for 10oz. veg tan sides that they charge for 4oz. All the tanneries charge increasing prices as the weight and grade of the veg tan go up.
Monty

your work is incredible - no doubt about that

but i have to take issue with your statement:
"...thick or thin it's all the same price."

that may be what you are paying my friend, but that is certainly not "usual" industry practice. but on small quantities your supplier/s may offer as you posted

quadrary knows of what he speaks

keep up your Great work - it is breathtakingly beautiful!

all the best,
smokey
 
I am surprised at the "same price" comment myself. I'm not sure what to make of it.

As far as types and qualities of leathers, he was commenting it seems only on veg tanned.

As I noted above only veg tanned is suitable for tooling. I am not a big tooling fan. Beautiful art, but just not my thing. So my thinking for leather options is a little more broad. I really like heavy oil tanned leathers for cases. But that's me, and I am sure a lot of people don't like it. If you don't know what it is, picture high end motorcycle saddlebags. Not the shiny plastic looking ones, the dull ones. Or you can picture high end motorcycle boots. Again, not the shiny ones, the dull ones. That stuff is tough, no pretty compromises.
 
Rusty, I need to know what supplier charges the same for 10oz. veg tan sides that they charge for 4oz. All the tanneries charge increasing prices as the weight and grade of the veg tan go up.
Monty

Different grades of leather are different prices. At Springfield Leather the 4-5, 6-7,8-9 and 9-10 are all the same price per foot as long it's the same grade. Heck, maybe I'm getting over charged on the thin leather, I don't know. I've never ordered directly from the tannery so I don't know anything about the way they price the leather. I looked on Wicket & Craigs website and in the tooling leather it lists their 8-10 oz. for 7.25 per foot and says, lighter weights will be split from 8 – 10 oz at no extra charge.
Maybe I'm misreading it but to me that sounds like 8-10 oz. and down is the same price.
 
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If you like a leather case and how it looks buy it. Truth is the price difference in the direct leather cost itself ain't that big no matter how thick or thin. Unless we're talking about exotic hides like elephant, ostrich or crocs...If we're talking about regular leather(cow) hides, unless you're making a Sofa there's no significant price difference on the hide itself.

The most expensive leather are the ones that's thick(1.3-1.5mm), big, no branding or scaring (non-corrected grains), soft and top grain. However these are not the leather you see on most cue cases, not even high end bags but on furniture.

A Bicast Leather can be 1.1mm thick but it's still cheaper than a 0.9mm top grain which is so much softer and thinner, so thick and hard doesn't mean more expensive. On the contrary it's cheaper. It's expensive cos it's hard to work on them.
I've seen loads of Bonded leather that looks really good, going as thick as 1.2mm and can imagine they'd look good for a cue case. These bonded leather are like the hamburger of leather, not the real deal(real steak). They're about 30% leather "minced" with polyester. The good thing is they're tough, and what's even better is they come in Rolls with fixed width so they are easy to work with and have very high usage for the maker.
 
Thanks Jive, good points.

"If you like a leather case and how it looks buy it." I totally agree, but will add how a case looks in a picture and how it looks in person can be different.

And thanks for pointing out, the quality rating and cost of the leather may not be a big factor in the cost of the case.

After seeing and touching many cases in person, what I want in a case has changed. I still want a carved case, but I don't like the glossy plastic look. I thought I wanted light weight, but heavy and thick makes me feel like I am getting more for my money. For a butterfly case, the softer leather feels real real nice. You can't tell that from a picture.
 
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Still waiting on anyone else to chime in....... :-)

BTW - Jive and Smokey probably use/used more real leather than all the case makers combined have in a lifetime.

Leather is not charged the same for all thicknesses. If a supplier is charging the same then they are over charging for the thin.

Tooling leather is tanned with chemicals derived from plant sources, often oak trees. Nappa leather is tanned using chromium which speeds up the process and results in a very supple leather. There are other ways to tan leather including using animal brains. It's worth a trip around the internet to read about the various ways leather is tanned and it's history.

Leather itself is graded on appearance as to quality for top grains. Top grains are leathers where the surface has not been altered and all the marks from the animal's life have been left alone. So when the tanning process is done the leather retains all the bite marks, scratches, scars and so on. This is preferred by some as it's the epitome of "leather" much the same as some cue buyers prize highly figured wood.

Corrected grain is when the surface has been sanded to make the surface smoother. This allows the leather to be embossed with any type of texture and is the basis for all the "prints".

There are two types of embossing, a direct print on the leather much the same as a single leather worker would make a stamp impression and a painting/bonding method where the leather is bonded to a synthetic surface and the texture is then imprinted on that. From a quality standpoint the first type of embossing is preferred because the texture is a permanent part of the leather. With the second type the texture can be removed with vigorous scratching. However the durability of the embossed layer on the second type varies by manufacturer and it can be extremely durable or very weak. The only way to find out is to test it as from appearance it's the same.

A cow skin is about an inch thick. So the skin is split into layers and the top layer, the one where the hair comes out is the top grain layer. All other layers are called splits and they are less expensive. From a durability standpoint they are the same as the top layer but they MUST be treated on the surface to achieve a suitable appearance.

From a consumer standpoint the quality of the leather has to do with appearance and durability. How long will it look good, what do I have to do to keep it looking good, and how strong is it?

The thing is that "leather" encompasses many different types and tannages and treatments. So it's nearly impossible for anyone to say that they use the best leather because no one agrees as to whats best.

Rusty says the best tooling leather comes from Herman Oak or Wicket and Craig. But then I get tooling leather that's imported from Brazil that is great as well. There are tanneries all over the world who all produce leather in about the same manner. In my experience it's best to search for leather in person and feel the material and test it before buying it. Then you hope to find a good supplier who can provide consistent material. This is where the value of a Herman Oak comes in because they have been consistent in what they supply.

From a consumer standpoint there is ZERO way to tell whether a piece of tooled leather came from any particular supplier. None. When leather is tooled the result depends on the way the leather was worked more than the starting material. I can guarantee you that any good leather worker can make beautiful pieces out of tooling leather from any source. One brand might be easier to work with but that doesn't mean that it's better in quality than any other brand when looking at the finished piece.

Getting into whose leather is "better" is a quagmire. It's akin to cue makers claiming that their wood is better than the wood of other cue makers. There are simply too many varieties to make that call. If one guy says that he only uses leather from a particular brand because it's the "best" I can provide quotes from other leather workers who claim that a competing brand is better.

We use all types of leather in our cases. For each type we have different techniques to work it so that the resulting cue case is as strong and durable as we want it to be. This includes hand-sanding the edges so that they fold properly, bonding the leather to other materials to increase stiffness, working it with oil or other methods to make it softer, molding it over wood molds with water and many many many more techniques that are invisible to the consumer. All of this encompasses the craft of leather working. The more varieties of leather you use the more you need to know and do to create great finished products. I feel pretty good about our ability to turn out cases using any type of leather.

This is an example of a case using nappa leather, eel print, and veg tan tooling leather.
bryan-d-lid.jpg


This is oil tan with veg tan:
brettsbaby-l-logo.jpg


Nappa with croc print:
cmd-e-name.jpg


This one is thinner tooling leather which we dyed to the customer's color preference. Also we use goat skin for the piping (the line that goes around the edges) and dye it to match the rest of the case:
commer-f-logo.jpg


Croc print with tooling leather:
the-commish-b2-b.jpg


Full Veg Tan Tooling leather:
doc-holiday-c3-lid.jpg


As a consumer you can only study the available information and go to leather goods stores to familiarize yourself with the different types and how they feel.

For me personally it's the fit and finish that is more important than the type of leather used. Any material can be worked into a good product. I make a case out of vinyl that is indistinguishable from leather. Anyone touching and feeling it thinks it's great leather.

You can take a piece of cowhide with blotches and defects and make it into a great case with proper leather working techniques. And often these make the most interesting cases. In contrast you can start with the most expensive and clean piece of Herman Oak saddle leather and make a crappy product.
 
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From a consumer standpoint the quality of the leather has to do with appearance and durability. How long will it look good, what do I have to do to keep it looking good, and how strong is it?

The thing is that "leather" encompasses many different types and tannages and treatments. So it's nearly impossible for anyone to say that they use the best leather because no one agrees as to whats best.



:thumbup:

Thanks JB. Well said.
 
Is there a grading system for leather quality ? If there is, I think it would be worthwhile for case makers who use high quality leather to emphasize it when marketing their cases.

I think I covered it pretty much in my other posts but here are some links to see how leather is graded:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leather
http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/features/leather-129.shtml - obviously when making tack the leather should be extremely durable.

"There is no international grading scale that is going to help you. Terms such as "Grade A" or "First Grade" don't mean anything in particular. The nastiest piece of tack on the planet can be stamped "A Grade" if a manufacturer so chooses." - from the above link.

"You have two further safeguards. Shop from a retailer you feel will back the products it sells, and if you want good quality, buy a reputable brand.

Reputable manufacturers will have stringent quality-control measures and be fussy about the leather they source from tanneries. Their aim will be to build tack of a consistently high quality, so one saddle or bridle should be as good as the next.

The other option is to use a bespoke saddler. They know that a reputation is hard to earn and easy to lose, so the quality should be good."


Went to my 1st SBE and was looking at all the different cases. It was nice to see and touch cases and I found there is no substitute to seeing and touching something in person. Pictures don't tell the whole story.

No they don't. Some stuff looks way better in pictures than it does in person and the opposite is also true. There is a lot of truth to the saying "in the best light". People who know how to artfully arrange their products can make them look fantastic in pictures. I am not artistic in that regard at all and I just take straightforward shots from every side and hope it's enough to show the case as close to holding it as possible.

Some cases you could just tell it was high quality leather. Other cases it was not so clear. Some cases had thinner light weight leather, others thicker leather. I know weight is a concern in cases, but I imagine thicker leather has to be more durable and more expensive.

Thicker leather is heavier and more durable. But it also depends on how a case is made whether that extra durability is needed or not. For example a thinner piece can be just as good as a thicker piece if no stress is put on it. Where this shows up is in pockets for example where they are constantly in use. Thinner leather will lead to saggy pockets and thicker leather will provide you with pockets that hold their shape.

Some leather cases had a plastic look to them. I don't know if this was due to the quality of the leather, some kind of treatment done to it or if it was a requirement due to the carving/tooling.

Leather can have any type of surface and most prints will have a slightly plastic look to them depending on how glossy the finish is. For tooled leather a finish is often applied to protect the leather and depending on how much finish and how much buffing is done the appearance can be glossy or matte. In general we try to go with a matte appearance to allow the leather to have a more natural look to it.

Here is an example of tooling leather with a matte finish:

doc-holiday-d1-fc.jpg


These two have a little more gloss to them:

dragon-scales-front-middle.jpg


chas-3-e1.jpg


We don't really do much with high gloss, some prints like this:

go-gators-g-rt.jpg


This is what I mean about fit and finish though:

salvation-q-interiorwithcues.jpg


No matter what thickness of leather was used or what type the case should be well made. All the parts should fit together nicely and there should not be any rough edges (unless that's part of the design).

As I said earlier when it comes to cue cases we can take just about any leather and make a nice case out of it. I said just about because there are some horrible examples of material out there that are leather but are unsuitable for use. For the most part though most leather is pretty good and useful in cue cases.

And there is no real grading system that everyone agrees on. Top grain uncorrected leather with few blemishes however is always the most expensive cowhide you can get. Just like Kobe beef it's all about the care that went into making it that determines the price.

However if you are going to stamp and carve all over it then any good piece of veg tanned tooling leather works in my opinion. It's up to the carver to select the pieces which fit the work he is doing. Hopefully he will cut around major blemishes.

Sometimes though a blemish adds character like this and you want to leave it in:

sugartree-a-front.jpg

sugartree-e-jb.jpg


For some reason the markings on this piece form the letters JB. For this customer knowing that he prizes highly figured wood I thought he would appreciate this piece of top grain. Normally a tanner would have sanded off these markings so it's lucky that we discovered this piece as is.
 
Thanks for the information John, Rusty and everyone else for taking the time to explain things. I have a much better understanding now. What I thought was quality of leather is really more my preference of what I like and don't like.

Hopefully people in the market for a new case will read this thread.

I guess I come away from the experience and information in this thread as being a firm believer of seeing a sample of a case mfr's work or buying in person to assure I am getting what I want.
 
what cow?

Still waiting on anyone else to chime in....... :-)

. . . . .

A cow skin is about an inch thick. So the skin is split into layers and the top layer, the one where the hair comes out is the top grain layer. All other layers are called splits and they are less expensive. From a durability standpoint they are the same as the top layer but they MUST be treated on the surface to achieve a suitable appearance.


Gotta ask what cow? I know little about leather. However I have dealt with many a cow, dead and alive. Yet to find one with anywhere near an inch thick skin. The thickest full thickness tanned hides I have seen were more like 1/4 to 3/8" thick at the thickest points too. I have spent some time around saddle makers who regularly bought full tanned hides. Never saw one anywhere close to an inch thick.

Hide thickness varies pretty substantially from breed to breed and animal to animal sometimes and varies greatly from the top of the back and flank to the stomach. However if I ever find a raw cow hide over a half inch thick I'm gonna bet pretty big that it ain't cow! Certainly not from any common breed or crossbreed in the US.

Hu
 
Gotta ask what cow? I know little about leather. However I have dealt with many a cow, dead and alive. Yet to find one with anywhere near an inch thick skin. The thickest full thickness tanned hides I have seen were more like 1/4 to 3/8" thick at the thickest points too. I have spent some time around saddle makers who regularly bought full tanned hides. Never saw one anywhere close to an inch thick.

Hide thickness varies pretty substantially from breed to breed and animal to animal sometimes and varies greatly from the top of the back and flank to the stomach. However if I ever find a raw cow hide over a half inch thick I'm gonna bet pretty big that it ain't cow! Certainly not from any common breed or crossbreed in the US.

Hu

I misspoke. Let me rephrase it, raw cowhide is pretty thick and is almost always split into thinner pieces.

For everyone else here are a few more good resources.

http://www.natanning.com/natcorpleather_glossary.htm
http://www.ushsla.org/ht/d/sp/i/26148/pid/26148

This is a good guide to leather thicknesses.
http://brummbar.com/brummbar/shop/references/leather_thickness_table/leather_thickness_table.html

http://www.gnnusa.com/leather_thickness.htm

This is 8-10oz - done at the customer's request. Very heavy.

paladin-e-tophandle.jpg

paladin-zb-withcue.jpg


This is 5-6oz - what we normally use for tooled cases
thepath-r-interiorwithcues.jpg


A half inch is about 13mm.

5/6oz leather is about 2-2.5 mm. So it's easy to see that a 13mm raw cowhide can be split into about five layers of 5/6oz. I thought I had read that some cowhides were about an inch thick. I should have made it clear that I was going from a faulty memory.

I have never seen a full tanned hide that was 3/4" thick. I know that handling a hide that is 8oz is pretty heavy and that is only 1.8th inch. 6x that would be 48oz leather. I don't know any saddle maker that would ever use that but I will ask on www.leatherworker.net if anyone has ever used 3/4" leather. Now I know that some folks do put several layers together to get to 3/4" and some of the heavy sewing machines advertise that they sew up to 1" thick.

I am amazed that you have so much experience in leather on top of everything else. I don't think that there is anything that you haven't done. That you have spent time skinning cows and measuring the thicknesses is just another of the things I can add to your long list of accomplishments. My experience with leather is limited to buying finished leather and working it. Thank you for sharing your experience with us.

Found a site that might be interesting reading for you.

http://www.bootedman.com/gen/leathergear.html
 
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