Got it. Well I think that all cue makers should be clear about what their policy is and how they handle claims. Furthermore the ACA should develop some guidelines as to handling cues and allow everyone to post it on their sites.
Should a Cue Maker Stand Behind the Work or Is it Your Problem?
- Thread starter Fast Lenny
- Start date
Got it. Well I think that all cue makers should be clear about what their policy is and how they handle claims. Furthermore the ACA should develop some guidelines as to handling cues and allow everyone to post it on their sites.
Care to put up one of your cues against an off-the shelf Fury in an independent test? you pick the lab and we will hide the logos and the origin and let the lab inspect the cues from top to bottom INCLUDING bandsawing them in half to inspect the internal construction.
I bet that the Fury would come out better than your cue. Are you willing to bet otherwise?
We will let an independent party order ANY Fury cue at any price point to put up against yours. No one will know that the ordered cue is for the test so no cherry picking.
Then we can see just how good the Chinese cue is compared to yours.[/QUOTE]
Dude, if i had to make cues out of the materials they use, i would'nt do it.
When is the last time you saw a chinese cue use phenolic instead of some soft, cheap plastic? Never, at least i've never seen one. Every one i've seen was made with the cheapest stuff one can get. You are nutz if you really think chinese products are anywhere in the same neighborhood as american products (what little you can find of them anymore). Seems you are the only one in the whole wide world that does'nt know china produces junk, made from inferior materials. Personally, if i had the choice, which i currently do'nt, i would never in my life buy another thing made from that communist shithole.
I bet that the Fury would come out better than your cue. Are you willing to bet otherwise?
We will let an independent party order ANY Fury cue at any price point to put up against yours. No one will know that the ordered cue is for the test so no cherry picking.
Then we can see just how good the Chinese cue is compared to yours.[/QUOTE]
Dude, if i had to make cues out of the materials they use, i would'nt do it.
When is the last time you saw a chinese cue use phenolic instead of some soft, cheap plastic? Never, at least i've never seen one. Every one i've seen was made with the cheapest stuff one can get. You are nutz if you really think chinese products are anywhere in the same neighborhood as american products (what little you can find of them anymore). Seems you are the only one in the whole wide world that does'nt know china produces junk, made from inferior materials. Personally, if i had the choice, which i currently do'nt, i would never in my life buy another thing made from that communist shithole.
A carpenter is not going to 'stand behind his work' if it is improperly maintained. Deck builders tend to have fine print on the warranties for this very reason. Along with shingle roofers. Heck even countertops have lengthy fine print warranties about what is excluded from coverage. Check it out next time you're in the hardware store.
As for the original question, I think it's too tough for the cuemaker to know exactly how "maintained" the cue was. A lot of people leave cues sitting in their cars, or leaning against a basement wall (seriously, seen that myself before!), so how is the cuemaker supposed to know if the cue has been abused or if it was a fault in the wood?
That said though, a reputable cuemaker should back their products if the person owning it has taken care of it properly. It's just tough for them to determine that, so I'm pretty 50/50 on this issue. :smile:
Edit: people shouldn't dog on China for making cheap crap. They are just following in the footsteps of the Koreans, the Taiwanese, and the Japanese. Hell, Japan was "cheap imported crap" world HQ for 25+ years. Quality in China will improve, just like it did with the others listed, then people will be scoffing at "cheap imported junk" from India!
Some VERY EXPENSIVE "crap" is also built in China. Forget about the electronics like Ipads and Iphones that are built there which are the best in the world............you can find tea tables in China that cost more than any cue ever built. Super intricately carved pieces out of one huge piece of burl.........you can find jade sculptures with hundreds of TINY figures carved into a huge block of jade that costs a million dollars - you can find entire ivory tusks carved with intricate scenes - you can find embroidery work that is so fine and intricate your eyes will bleed looking at it that costs tens of thousands of dollars.
In China you can have things in ANY quality level from utter crap to absolute perfection. It's all in what you are willing to pay for and put up with to get there.
And the leather workers? Don't even get me started on the depth of the talent pool there at the moment.
Let's see any other case maker do this:
Dude, if i had to make cues out of the materials they use, i would'nt do it.
When is the last time you saw a chinese cue use phenolic instead of some soft, cheap plastic? Never, at least i've never seen one. Every one i've seen was made with the cheapest stuff one can get. You are nutz if you really think chinese products are anywhere in the same neighborhood as american products (what little you can find of them anymore). Seems you are the only one in the whole wide world that does'nt know china produces junk, made from inferior materials. Personally, if i had the choice, which i currently do'nt, i would never in my life buy another thing made from that communist shithole.
[/QUOTE]Well then how would you like to bet some significant money on an independent test?
I think you need to get out more because you obviously are relying on cues you bought at the flea market 25 years ago.
I could put up some images of work done by some big name American cue makers and if I said it was from China you'd say typical and if I revealed that it was from America you'd be full of excuses.
By the same token I could put up pictures of some Chinese made cues and without revealing the cue maker but implying that they were made in the USA you would praise them to the heavens. When I reveal that the cues you just praised were made in China you'd probably want to kill yourself.
Fact is you are simply ignorant and probably a crappy cue maker to boot. You simply can't comprehend that an Asian person can buy the same wood you do, buy the same materials you do, and put it all together better than you can.
Here you go - show me when you can build a cue as nice as this one.
I sent 50 shaft dowels, some 50 year old antique birdseye and many other materials to a cuemaker in PI to build me some cues and for him to do others he sells. Almost all his materials are from here in the US, he is the builder. He understands that he cannot use most of the stuff there like the shaft wood or whatever because the material is inferior. I have put my cue up to others and those who know JD cues know how they play and stack up, it should since the materials are the same as most of the guys building cues in the US.
I am sure there are many cues that have been subjected to abuse that look great but have warped because they were left in the car or something. I guess it would be an honor system, trust that most would not take advantage of it but if an honest guy spends his hard earned money on a cue and it warps after a few months and it just goes from his house to the poolroom then a cue maker needs to stand behind his mistakes. I have found in business most people are honest but there are a few who will exploit things and take advantage especially when it comes to a warranty, just like on an automobile.
Sure. What danutz (should be just nutz) doesn't get is that anyone making cues can source their parts from any place on Earth. They can buy wood from North America, ferrules from Atlas, pins from UniLoc, linen wrap from English mills....... I know because I have brokered deals where containers of cue blanks were shipped from Wisconsin to Taipei and where a container of Irish Linen was bought from a mill in England among other things. I have bought ivory from David Warther, parts from Atlas and others for foreign cue makers.
Fury imports wood from all over the world. What they can't make in China they buy from whoever makes it.
It's ridiculous to think that in this day and age that any serious maker is restricted from access to the same materials that anyone else has access to.
I never said they could'nt source materials, numbnutz, they choose not to, due to cost. I've seen plenty crap chinese cues, believe me. Even if the chinese factory assembly line did use the best of materials, which they won't, and don't, it's still not the same thing as having a custom cue made from start to finish by one guy. Something i don't think you get, or appreciate. If someone wants a production factory cue, there are still far better ones made here in the good ol usa. Ever heard of Mcdermott, or Joss, or how about Schon? Those who know, know the difference. Obviously, you are not in the know. Sorry, but get over your socialist self already. China sucks balls, and so do you.
I never said they could'nt source materials, numbnutz, they choose not to, due to cost. I've seen plenty crap chinese cues, believe me. Even if the chinese factory assembly line did use the best of materials, which they won't, and don't, it's still not the same thing as having a custom cue made from start to finish by one guy. Something i don't think you get, or appreciate. If someone wants a production factory cue, there are still far better ones made here in the good ol usa. Ever heard of Mcdermott, or Joss, or how about Schon? Those who know, know the difference. Obviously, you are not in the know. Sorry, but get over your socialist self already. China sucks balls, and so do you.
Those who know? So you think you know? You have no idea what I know or who I know. I understand and appreciate cues on every level from custom to production from a garage shop to a factory with 600 employees.
Guess what genius, there is no natural law that governs the making of things that guarantees that something made by "one guy" is going to be better than something made by ten or one hundred people. How can you be so dense as to not know this?
Division of labor IS why you can type your idiotic opinion on these message boards.
Once again I will bet high that in an independent test any current Fury cue will come out with higher marks than ANY cue you can make. You build the best cue you can and we will hide the origins and the logo and let the cues be reviewed.
Do you have enough confidence to bet $5000 real American dollars that you can build a cue that will beat any random 2012 Fury cue? If so let's get it on and set it up.
Look "man", I'm new to cue building, and so far have only done some conversions, and have some other stuff in process. I will say that of the few that have played one of my conversions, i'm quite sure they would choose it over some pos china cue. One guy i sold one to, has several SW's, and several other high end cues, and he loves his. That's good enough for me. Personally, i think i have more time, and money into a conversion, than any pos china cue has in it, no matter how fancy it is.
There are several custom shops here in the usa, that i would take that bet with tho. I would not only take the bet against ANY china cue, but any production cue anywhere. Ah nevermind, i can see it now, i send you a high end custom, and i get a cheap knockoff copy of it back. No thanks.
I'm going to concede this exchange, as i feel i'm being dragged down to your level of ignorance, and i'm sure you will win anyways, seeing how you have so much more experience at being an ignoramous
Congratulations, and good luck with the whole joining the communist party thing. I'm sure you'll fit right in.
Look "man", I'm new to cue building, and so far have only done some conversions, and have some other stuff in process. I will say that of the few that have played one of my conversions, i'm quite sure they would choose it over some pos china cue. One guy i sold one to, has several SW's, and several other high end cues, and he loves his. That's good enough for me. Personally, i think i have more time, and money into a conversion, than any pos china cue has in it, no matter how fancy it is.
There are several custom shops here in the usa, that i would take that bet with tho. I would not only take the bet against ANY china cue, but any production cue anywhere. Ah nevermind, i can see it now, i send you a high end custom, and i get a cheap knockoff copy of it back. No thanks.
I'm going to concede this exchange, as i feel i'm being dragged down to your level of ignorance, and i'm sure you will win anyways, seeing how you have so much more experience at being an ignoramous
So you are barely a cue maker (if you could even be called that) and yet you feel qualified to talk about what people do who have been in the business for more than 30 years?
You'd lose your ass. I spent an hour today talking cues with a cue maker that has been making cues probably longer than you have been alive because you don't sound like you are over 25......and he has had ONE cue warp out of all the cues he has ever made....his secret is that he cuts wood a tiny bit at a time and only on dry days - complicated isn't it? That cue maker said that there are a few production companies which also do it the right way and that's why their cues don't warp.
I have a Fury that is six years old with inlays that are perfect, the cue is straight and the shaft is perfect.
You should have stayed in school. You are out of your league in an intelligent discussion. The KKK meeting is down the hill by the burning cross.
On a later post you said that you think he's about 25-years old.
That would of made him zero, when he was buying cues at the flea market.
I don't know how old zero really is because I've never known anybody who is 0, but I don't think it's very old.
It's hard to peg how old he is because his posts vary from juvenile to crusty old bigot - not that I care either way really. The point is made that he obviously has zero experience with any of the Chinese cues from the big distributors made in the last five years. Now we find out he isn't even a cue maker yet despite claiming to be.
I know three very good American cue makers who sell the Chinese cues right alongside their own cues because they recognize the quality/price value of them and understand that not every customer is ready or willing to pay for a custom cue.
Nothing could be more true John, except for Ivory. That one item that is easy to obtain but very hard to export or import. In fact in this country the only true Ivory a Cue Maker can possess is Elephant, Mastodon, or Mammoth all of the Ivories from Sea Mammals can only be owned and worked by a select group of Native Americans.
I find it truly amazing hows many folks on here have ZERO knowledge of how wood works. wood, eg your shaft, doesn't give a damn what the temp is. 120 degrees, - 30 degrees, the wood slowly changes to assume the current temp. Now heat one side and cool the other. . .you may have a problem.
If you take a piece of maple that is 2" square and turn it down to 1/2" square in two or three turnings over a few weeks, you are allowing the internal stresses in the wood less time than needed to adjust. There is "WINDAGE" in any piece of wood.
If the cuemaker doesn't know how to deal with it, you are gonna be f#cked and not the good kind.
just a carpenter, never made a cue, but ask the good ones if I'm right
If you take a piece of maple that is 2" square and turn it down to 1/2" square in two or three turnings over a few weeks, you are allowing the internal stresses in the wood less time than needed to adjust. There is "WINDAGE" in any piece of wood.
If the cuemaker doesn't know how to deal with it, you are gonna be f#cked and not the good kind.
just a carpenter, never made a cue, but ask the good ones if I'm right
Tough subject. For the cost of a quality cue or shaft a Life Time warranty would be a great offering. Wood is impossible to guarantee.... I understand the CueMaker not wanting to stayed Married to it. My .2 is Yes...the maker should stand behind it unless it is obviously abused. I have Muecci Original. Never left my house. The butt has a slight warp. Bought it in 1980 for $100. Not only is it not warranty covered..... Muecci repair/restoration fees are way out of hand.
Overheard in Dave Bollmans shop Thurs. "How much do I owe you?" Reply "Nothing, if I gave you a bad tip I'll replace it no charge"
Not all cue makers are created equal - the good ones will stand behind their product no matter what. This comes from the fact they know how to treat wood, age it, and relieve the inherent stress within the wood. I have an original Schon, one of the first ever made, and it is still straight as an arrow. Production manufacturers like McDermott turn their shafts a multitude of time over a minimum of 6 months before they sell them. Ariel Carmelli turns his shafts a minimum of 20 times. I've never had one of his warp. Not all makers take this time. They cut corners to make the almighty dollar. In my opinion, if the cuemaker doesn't want to stand behind his product, it is inferior to begin with, and you purchase at your own risk.
I find it truly amazing hows many folks on here have ZERO knowledge of how wood works. wood, eg your shaft, doesn't give a damn what the temp is. 120 degrees, - 30 degrees, the wood slowly changes to assume the current temp. Now heat one side and cool the other. . .you may have a problem.
If you take a piece of maple that is 2" square and turn it down to 1/2" square in two or three turnings over a few weeks, you are allowing the internal stresses in the wood less time than needed to adjust. There is "WINDAGE" in any piece of wood.
If the cuemaker doesn't know how to deal with it, you are gonna be f#cked and not the good kind.
just a carpenter, never made a cue, but ask the good ones if I'm right
There is a lot more to it than what you said here, but you did scratch the surface of a surface scratch.