Should a Cue Maker Stand Behind the Work or Is it Your Problem?

[Fast Lenny]

Some good points in this thread. I feel if the cue has not been abused which is pretty obvious to someone who looks at it and the butt warps or rings pop then a cue maker should take care of it within reason. I have owned dozens and dozens of cues, more than I can count and some are over 30 years old and are perfect still and others are not a year old and rings are popping, feeling the points, shafts moved way too much, that to me is unacceptable.

I recently got a cue that was made in '06 and it is in excellent shape besides the fact you can feel the rings badly and it has a slight roll by the forearm which could be due to the rings. I assume it was not abused but I have not been in possession of the cue for its 6 years of life so even though the cue looks great, it could have been subject to extreme heat or cold.

In that situation I do not expect the cue maker to do anything, I contacted him for a price on a refinish and hopefully that will take care of the rings and slight roll out on the cue or it will just be sold at a discount price as a player since the tip does not leave the table. I do think if your the original owner and have taken care of the cue then the butt should not warp period. Shafts are another story because we taper them and take them down, but a cue butt has a thick finish, its not a thin piece of wood and should not move.

 

[supergreenman]

I have a McDermott C-14 cue that is over 25 years old and I guarantee it has hit a million balls and is still dead straight...butt and shaft alike. I have used it to break thousands and thousand of racks and it is still straighter than 99% of the "big name" custom cues that have just came out of their lathes.

People will badmouth "production" cues, but I have NEVER had a problem with any production cue I have owned, but I hear lots of people on here complaining about "so and so's" custom shafts warping, etc.

When I bought this cue, I had two custom made Richard Blacks that I ordered from him (1979 & 1982) and I liked this cue so well, I sold both of them and this became my playing cue.

I tend to baby my cues, so they may not experience as much shock and abuse as those where people leave them in the car and don't take care of them. I constantly am wiping my cue as I play and I wipe my cues completely down after I finish and then store them in quality hard cases.

I'm not sure you could totally hold a cuemaker liable for one of his high-dollar cues warping after a few years, but I would have to make a comment on his cues if he wouldn't even match the warranty of a "lowly" "production" McDermott (lifetime).

I have a Viking and a McDermott, I know if either of these were to warp I would get a replacement. I paid $600 for one and $200 for the other.

I don't think it's out of line for a custom cue maker to replace a warped shaft (FOR WHAT EVER REASON) when looking at it from this point of view. Especially when you consider that paying $600+ (most times a lot more) for a custom is the norm not the exception.

For a custom cue maker, his name is EVERYTHING why would he risk it for the least expensive but most important piece of wood on a cue?

 

[Mr. Bond]

To the cue makers:
If you haven't already, please develop a clear (and hopefully ethical) policy on returns, refunds, repairs and guarantees. And make sure that your customers are fully aware of your policy.

To the buyers:
Please make sure you are aware of your cue maker's policies before you buy. Beyond that, the law is either on your side or it isnt.


To all:
Problem is, unlike other products out there, any custom made wooden object is fragile and perishable to a certain extent. Not perishable like an apple is, but perishable in the sense that if it's not kept in a suitable environment, its condition will change to the point of uselessness.

Yes, a good cue maker should always begin with high quality materials (and methods) that are less prone to distortion etc etc but that is no guarantee. And, of course you must consider the fact that the more detail/pieces a cue is made of, the more chances there are for something to move.

I'm not going to suggest how you should feel about the issue, but I will say this: If a custom cue maker guarantees you that your butt wont warp for a lifetime, he's done you a huge favor and taken all the risk.

 

[JB Cases]

Funny that some BIG TIME cue makers can't build a cue that doesn't warp easily but this factory can:

Fury strives to bring the absolute best value to pool cue production. By using only the finest available materials and conforming to strict quality control standards, Fury is now able to offer a limited lifetime warranty to all cues purchased on or after January 1, 2011.

Should a Fury cue show any defects in materials or craftsmanship, Fury will repair or replace, at their discretion, the cue with the same model, or a model of equal value. This warranty covers warpage, materials, and construction. This warranty does not cover replaceable parts such as the tip, ferrule, wrap, bumper, and finish. The warranty is void if the product shows any signs of abuse, mishandling, or third-party alteration, as determined by Fury cues. All warranties shall be resolved at the discretion of Fury Cues and Sterling Gaming. This warranty applies to the original purchaser of the cue, for the life of the cue, and is non-transferable. Only cues purchased from an authorized Fury dealer, registered with Fury (by filling out the warranty registration below), and accompanied by a sales receipt will be covered under this warranty.

I have been in China for more than five year and in that time I have seen the factory that makes Fury cues changed to a state of the art facility with climate control and over a million pieces of wood being stored and handled and aged the right way. Imagine how much wood they have to have on hand to only use wood that has been properly aged and turned in order to make this warranty.

I was told that they left some cues outside and leaning against the wall for months to test whether they would hold up and they did. So you can try a Fury cue with full confidence that if it warps any time in your lifetime that they will replace it.

And several other production brands make the same guarantee. Sure, they can afford to replace the odd cue but such a warranty only makes sense as long as the rate of warpage is very small.

I'd think that any well known and very vocal cue maker who is always bragging about his experience and knowledge would have solved the warpage problem a long time ago as apparently his predecessors were able to.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I think if the shaft warps while being taken care of - and within say, a year, of the original purchase date--- the cue maker should stand behind it.

I think cue makers should be held accountable for the stability of a shaft for a particular time.

The only variation is if the cue is left in a frozen car overnight (ya know - that type of stuff). Since there's no way to quantify a client did such a thing or that the shaft moved on it's own, a cue maker should always err on the side of the client and support his product for a year.

Just my take.

 

[JB Cases]

Replacing shafts for free may be okay for a production cue company, but I don't believe that cue makers should be expected to compete with that policy. With the lower volume, such a policy would either call for an increase in the prices of their cues to account for replacements or drive them out of business.

From what I know, all of the following factors, and maybe a few more, can cause shaft warping:

• Poor Wood Quality
• Poor Wood Treatment
• Poor Shaft Construction
• Abuse
• Storage Conditions

Since the list includes items that can be a caused by either the cue maker or the owner (or nature, if the wood has a mind of its own), I think the logical solution is to split the cost of replacement. I'm not sure exactly what the split should be, but it seems like some compromise would be the best way to maintain customer satisfaction without opening up the cue maker to someone abusing a warranty. Perhaps if the cue owner pays for the materials, the cue maker could do the work for free.

What price point should dictate getting a well made cue which the maker will stand behind?

I have one that cost $2000 made by a big name cue maker who charges up to $100,000 which is warped in the butt and shafts and all the inlays are popping.

Conversely I have a Fury which I have been using for six years that is dead straight with no inlay issues whatsoever. It's a $450 cue and came to me long before Fury started giving out a lifetime warranty.

Seems to me that SOME top cue makers are never mentioned in these discussions while others seem to always have warpage and other issues.

How is it possible that SOME cue makers appear to have figured out how to make cues that can travel the globe without adverse affects while others can't travel a hundred miles without warping???

I don't think that this is a price issue. Not at all. Nor is it a cost issue. I think it's a wood handling and tolerance issue. And when things go bad then it's an ego issue.

In my opinion.

 

[JB Cases]

I think if the shaft warps while being taken care of - and within say, a year, of the original purchase date--- the cue maker should stand behind it.

I think cue makers should be held accountable for the stability of a shaft for a particular time.

The only variation is if the cue is left in a frozen car overnight (ya know - that type of stuff). Since there's no way to quantify a client did such a thing or that the shaft moved on it's own, a cue maker should always err on the side of the client and support his product for a year.

Just my take.

You know there is a lot of talk about cues left in cars and so on and being subject to this temperature and that temperature.

I have traveled the world and left as much as 50k in cues in the car, in Ryder and Uhaul trucks, in frozen storage units and the like for years. I can tell you with 100% conviction that SOME cues easily shrug all that off and stay pristine and some cues warp like bananas.

No matter what cues I am using they live in the car in all temperatures. My personal cues are always straight and fine.

Now I am not saying that this is how people should treat their cues. I am only saying that in my experience which has been extensive it all comes back to how the cue was built as to whether it will move under temperature duress or not.

I believe that there has been a TON of research in the area of wood movement under x-conditions. Funny that some of the most well regarded cue makers who never seem to have warpage issues have been great machinists and wood workers and engineers BEFORE they started making cues. Seems that these people have a finer understanding of tolerances and material properties than some cue makers who didn't have those technical backgrounds. Now that's only my opinion but I think it would hold up to closer inspection.

 

[Spimp13]

I have traveled the world and left as much as 50k in cues in the car, in Ryder and Uhaul trucks, in frozen storage units and the like for years. I can tell you with 100% conviction that SOME cues easily shrug all that off and stay pristine and some cues warp like bananas.

No matter what cues I am using they live in the car in all temperatures. My personal cues are always straight and fine.

Is it because of the type of wood, craftmanship, or a combo? I would think some types of woods warp more easily and possibly how the cue was put together "might" or "might not" make it warp quicker.

 

[danutz]

Funny that some BIG TIME cue makers can't build a cue that doesn't warp easily but this factory can:

Fury strives to bring the absolute best value to pool cue production. By using only the finest available materials and conforming to strict quality control standards, Fury is now able to offer a limited lifetime warranty to all cues purchased on or after January 1, 2011.

Should a Fury cue show any defects in materials or craftsmanship, Fury will repair or replace, at their discretion, the cue with the same model, or a model of equal value. This warranty covers warpage, materials, and construction. This warranty does not cover replaceable parts such as the tip, ferrule, wrap, bumper, and finish. The warranty is void if the product shows any signs of abuse, mishandling, or third-party alteration, as determined by Fury cues. All warranties shall be resolved at the discretion of Fury Cues and Sterling Gaming. This warranty applies to the original purchaser of the cue, for the life of the cue, and is non-transferable. Only cues purchased from an authorized Fury dealer, registered with Fury (by filling out the warranty registration below), and accompanied by a sales receipt will be covered under this warranty.

I have been in China for more than five year and in that time I have seen the factory that makes Fury cues changed to a state of the art facility with climate control and over a million pieces of wood being stored and handled and aged the right way. Imagine how much wood they have to have on hand to only use wood that has been properly aged and turned in order to make this warranty.

I was told that they left some cues outside and leaning against the wall for months to test whether they would hold up and they did. So you can try a Fury cue with full confidence that if it warps any time in your lifetime that they will replace it.

And several other production brands make the same guarantee. Sure, they can afford to replace the odd cue but such a warranty only makes sense as long as the rate of warpage is very small.

I'd think that any well known and very vocal cue maker who is always bragging about his experience and knowledge would have solved the warpage problem a long time ago as apparently his predecessors were able to.

Wow, drumming up business for your commy buddies, surprise, surprise
The reason they can offer a warranty like that is because they have so very little into them in the first place, as i'm sure you well know. Finest available materials my ass. Not one thing made in china, is made with the finest of materials, period. Never will be either, they are copiers, not creators, inventors, or even innovators. If the chinese had to come up with an original idea or starve, they'd starve. Sympathizer

 

[metallicane]

Does wood have a lifetime guarantee? Depends on how soon the warpage begins.

 

[Matt90]

If

If everyone was honest warranty would be no problems .The problem is people abuse cues and then expect a cue maker to make it right .This makes honest folks who have a legit problem suffer. It happens in other industries as well , trust me.

 

[JB Cases]

Wow, drumming up business for your commy buddies, surprise, surprise
The reason they can offer a warranty like that is because they have so very little into them in the first place, as i'm sure you well know. Finest available materials my ass. Not one thing made in china, is made with the finest of materials, period. Never will be either, they are copiers, not creators, inventors, or even innovators. If the chinese had to come up with an original idea or starve, they'd starve. Sympathizer

Really? http://www.vhinkle.com/china/inventions.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions

The reason that Fury can offer this warranty is because the cues hold up. If cost were the driver then the warranty would have been offered 10 years ago. You would go broke betting against the wood stock the Fury factory has on hand.

I actually RELISH it when some ignoramus like you pipes up so I can link to the facts.

The fact is that if you are a cue maker and you can't even build to the standard that a Chinese cue maker does then you suck. There is no logical reason why they can build cues that don't warp while you can't. You can make all the excuses you want to but it's the truth.

Now there are many small cue makers who build cues that don't warp and which hold up over time. So it's not a factory vs. small maker thing. It's a crappy cue maker vs. a good one thing. That's scales from small cue makers to factories.

If you ever come to China you will see many things made of the finest materials. You will see wood and stone sculptures that cost more than any cue ever built. ANY CUE. You will tiny pieces of jade jewelry that cost more than your shop and all the cues you have ever made.

You will see ornately inlaid furniture that costs more than most houses.

But you are too ignorant to realize the truth. Now show us the inventory of your house and shop with the labels on them of where things were made.

People like you are the reason that we can never have peace. The Germans exterminated six million humans and they are held in a higher esteem by you than the Chinese. Has a Chinese person EVER done a damn thing to you? No, they were conscripted and lied to to build your railroads and work your mines and then were discriminated against by your forefathers. Now they are working to improve their lives and you call them evil for it?

Does it really bother you that Nelson Tsai invested millions into building a state of the art factory in China and millions into wood stock? Are you jealous that they have taken your "craft" and done it better than you do it?

Guess what hero - bunches of small cue makers is a RECENT development. For most of the past two hundred years the majority of cues have been factory produced. And most of those cues are pretty damn good products. You have to work hard to get to the standards that they set, not the other way around.

Care to put up one of your cues against an off-the shelf Fury in an independent test? you pick the lab and we will hide the logos and the origin and let the lab inspect the cues from top to bottom INCLUDING bandsawing them in half to inspect the internal construction.

I bet that the Fury would come out better than your cue. Are you willing to bet otherwise?

We will let an independent party order ANY Fury cue at any price point to put up against yours. No one will know that the ordered cue is for the test so no cherry picking.

Then we can see just how good the Chinese cue is compared to yours.

 

[JB Cases]

If everyone was honest warranty would be no problems .The problem is people abuse cues and then expect a cue maker to make it right .This makes honest folks who have a legit problem suffer. It happens in other industries as well , trust me.

Most people are honest which is why the warranties work. Sure some people abuse them but not enough to matter.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

There was a thread posted in the Cue Review section and somehow it got brought up about a well known cue maker not standing behind his work when the cues purchased warped. I was curious as to everyone and their feelings about cues warping. Is it a piece of wood and you take your chances that if it warps its your problem or should a cue maker stand behind it and fix the issue?

Lenny as you know because you live in the Valley of the Sun, we have very very low humidity here most of the year, with the exception of MONSOON SEASON that is 6-8 weeks per year.

Warping is a big problem with Cues that are sent say from CHINA, and the Philippines as most of these Cue are fine in the place of origin. But when you send them to the LAND OF SUCK THE MOISTURE OUT they warp.

Also we got Rocket Scientists who living in this Valley, or Snow Birds who live here in the Winter, and leave Cue in the Trunk of their CARS year round, or in the HEAT of Summer to go shopping etc. for hours.

Your question is a good one, and if the Cue WARPED for no reason at all there should be a warranty.

But if the Cue Wrapped because you left your Cue in your Arizona Cars TRUNK all SUMMER, in a Garage, and the TRUNK got Hotter then HELL, who fault is that problem??? Why should the Cuemaker's feet be held to the fire?

A gentleman I know sold a guy this Cue for about $60.00 out where I live. The Snowbird left the Cue in the Trunk of his AZ Car, Parked in the Garage of his Arizona Home all Summer, and cried because the Cue warped when he went to use it the following Winter.

I say the SNOWBIRD was at FAULT for the Warping.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

You know there is a lot of talk about cues left in cars and so on and being subject to this temperature and that temperature.

I have traveled the world and left as much as 50k in cues in the car, in Ryder and Uhaul trucks, in frozen storage units and the like for years. I can tell you with 100% conviction that SOME cues easily shrug all that off and stay pristine and some cues warp like bananas.

No matter what cues I am using they live in the car in all temperatures. My personal cues are always straight and fine.

Now I am not saying that this is how people should treat their cues. I am only saying that in my experience which has been extensive it all comes back to how the cue was built as to whether it will move under temperature duress or not.

I believe that there has been a TON of research in the area of wood movement under x-conditions. Funny that some of the most well regarded cue makers who never seem to have warpage issues have been great machinists and wood workers and engineers BEFORE they started making cues. Seems that these people have a finer understanding of tolerances and material properties than some cue makers who didn't have those technical backgrounds. Now that's only my opinion but I think it would hold up to closer inspection.

I agree with much of what you say. A lot of it comes down to how cue makers "process" the wood before it becomes a cue/shaft. I left my Lambros in the car many a times and never had a problem. There are structural things that can be done during construction to eliminate/mitigate those effects--- so, I agree.

 

[Fast Lenny]

Lenny as you know because you live in the Valley of the Sun, we have very very low humidity here most of the year, with the exception of MONSOON SEASON that is 6-8 weeks per year.

Warping is a big problem with Cues that are sent say from CHINA, and the Philippines as most of these Cue are fine in the place of origin. But when you send them to the LAND OF SUCK THE MOISTURE OUT they warp.

Also we got Rocket Scientists who living in this Valley, or Snow Birds who live here in the Winter, and leave Cue in the Trunk of their CARS year round, or in the HEAT of Summer to go shopping etc. for hours.

Your question is a good one, and if the Cue WARPED for no reason at all there should be a warranty.

But if the Cue Wrapped because you left your Cue in your Arizona Cars TRUNK all SUMMER, in a Garage, and the TRUNK got Hotter then HELL, who fault is that problem??? Why should the Cuemaker's feet be held to the fire?

A gentleman I know sold a guy this Cue for about $60.00 out where I live. The Snowbird left the Cue in the Trunk of his AZ Car, Parked in the Garage of his Arizona Home all Summer, and cried because the Cue warped when he went to use it the following Winter.

I say the SNOWBIRD was at FAULT for the Warping.

As I have stated, I am not talking about abuse, leaving a cue in a very hot or cold car is abuse in my opinion. My player is from PI and is dead straight and has been for over a year now, in that year I went to Derby, Cali, NY, and as you know reside here in Arizona so its been subject to adverse conditions.

 

[BarneyCalip]

Bert and Ernie ......... Sesame Street


Let's say, I took care of my Schrager cue.

If the cue warped then it would have to be replaced by the cuemaker.

It's in the wood and cuemaker !!!!

I met Bert Schrager and Ernie Guiterrez in 1970.
It was great talking to both of them about cue making, in North Hollywood Ca.
I went to both shops and was amazed on how different they were in making cues.
There were several things that I remember to this day where they were SIMULAR.

Both had wood that were over 20 years old and they were FANATIC about keeping moisture out of there wood.
They would not think of making a cue out with wood that had been dry for a year or kiln dried wood setting for a year.

There cues took years to make, because they did it right.
They would take MINIMAL cuts on the cue and let it sit to relieve the stress.
Make another minimal cut and let it rest and rest and rest.
Every time they glued something together they would set it aside and let the glue dry and rest.

That is why when someone said here, he had a 20 year old Gina Cue and it was straight.
I smiled when I heard that and said to myself, How could it Not Be Straight !!!!

Ernie and Bert are old school and believed in Pride and Craftmanship.
They were not in a hurry and money was not there primary concern.
It was about making the perfect cue, because it had their name.

I miss the conversations Bert, Ernie and I had together, Barney
.

 

[Spider1]

Should a carpenter stand behind his work? Or an electrician? Or should you pay them, they do a shitty job and then youre just stuck with it. No the same goes for cue makers. They should stand behind their work bottom line.

A carpenter is not going to 'stand behind his work' if it is improperly maintained. Deck builders tend to have fine print on the warranties for this very reason. Along with shingle roofers. Heck even countertops have lengthy fine print warranties about what is excluded from coverage. Check it out next time you're in the hardware store.


As for the original question, I think it's too tough for the cuemaker to know exactly how "maintained" the cue was. A lot of people leave cues sitting in their cars, or leaning against a basement wall (seriously, seen that myself before!), so how is the cuemaker supposed to know if the cue has been abused or if it was a fault in the wood?

That said though, a reputable cuemaker should back their products if the person owning it has taken care of it properly. It's just tough for them to determine that, so I'm pretty 50/50 on this issue. :smile:


Edit: people shouldn't dog on China for making cheap crap. They are just following in the footsteps of the Koreans, the Taiwanese, and the Japanese. Hell, Japan was "cheap imported crap" world HQ for 25+ years. Quality in China will improve, just like it did with the others listed, then people will be scoffing at "cheap imported junk" from India!

 

[Ghosst]

Funny that some BIG TIME cue makers can't build a cue that doesn't warp easily but this factory can.

Everything else aside, this is the key point. McDermott offers the same.

Before you tell the world that you are the best and if a customer doesn't agree they're either gay or a communist, you really should be able to match this kind of quality. If you can't, then you're just blowing smoke.

 

[Matt]

What price point should dictate getting a well made cue which the maker will stand behind?

I have one that cost $2000 made by a big name cue maker who charges up to $100,000 which is warped in the butt and shafts and all the inlays are popping.

Conversely I have a Fury which I have been using for six years that is dead straight with no inlay issues whatsoever. It's a $450 cue and came to me long before Fury started giving out a lifetime warranty.

Seems to me that SOME top cue makers are never mentioned in these discussions while others seem to always have warpage and other issues.

How is it possible that SOME cue makers appear to have figured out how to make cues that can travel the globe without adverse affects while others can't travel a hundred miles without warping???

I don't think that this is a price issue. Not at all. Nor is it a cost issue. I think it's a wood handling and tolerance issue. And when things go bad then it's an ego issue.

In my opinion.

I don't quite understand how my post sparked this question. The only mention I had of price was that for a cue maker to offer a lifetime warranty on their shafts not warping, they would have to set aside some of their profits for replacements which would lead to an increase in the price of their cues or a loss of profit.

My argument that the cue maker should share the price of a replacement shaft with the owner was based on the assumption that shafts may warp because of the cue maker or the owner. If you are saying that it is always because of the cue maker, then it would make sense for them to replace it without charge.

I didn't mention anything about inlays or butt warp since I don't know much about the possible causes of those, but I would guess that those also could be traced to construction or neglect.

In any case, it's up to the cue maker whether or not they offer a warranty on any or all of the cue, and to what extent. If I got a cue with a warranty, I would expect it to cost more than a comparable cue without a warranty.