US Open changes

[JolietJames]

Just two quick points.
Seeding helps assure the best players make it deep and eventually win the tournament or place in the top four or five. It's kind of like insurance a 9-7 team like the NY Giants won't win the Super Bowl and be declared the BEST team in the league. Sure, they were in the top 8 teams, but if you think they were the best in the NFL you need your head examined. Seeding makes players like the Giants prove themselves worthy a little earlier in the tournament. One can still get into the money by facing no more than one pro -maybe none. Seems like they want to pay everyone. Paying 96th place out of a field of 256? Yay, everyone gets a trophy/ribbon/gold star!

Seeding also sets up more big name matchups in the middle and late in the tourney. Those are the matches the spectators come to see.
I have no idea what the tournaments make on spectators through entry and vendors, etc. but more people will pay money to see two top pros matching up in a match that matters than a top pro bashing an unknown in the fifth round.

 

[justnum]

this is not the case a few years back during announcements he says no foreigners from same country will play first 2 rounds...stack that deck

The Behrman family history in pool is clearly tarnished. I don't see any of them working to fix it. What I do see are groups, the BCA and the ABP, taking on more of a management role with Barry. Pretty soon, they will find his "prize funders" and just cut him out altogether.

 

[Celtic]

One day the dead wood players will just stop playing in/stop funding these seeded tournaments they have no chance to cash in. Seeding is only done to have the top 16 still in on the last day. Keep this seeding $hit up and one day you'll only have 16 top pros in the whole tournament. Johnnyt

This comes down to where you want the success of pool to derive from, or where you think it has the potential to grow from.

As a shortstop player in a tournament seeding is a negative. It removes your chance at a soft draw, and pool tournaments do have a chance to lose some of the lower skill players in events because of this.

As a fan though? Fans want to see the top players playing against each other in the deep rounds of a tournament. They want to see Nadal vs Federer in the finals of Wimbeldon, not in the second round.

The question then becomes, where is the success of this sport going to derive from if it ever gets out of it's current state? The answer most people would admit is from fans and from spectators that drive sponsership and interest in the sport.

The players of a successful sport never drive the economics of that sport, the spectators and the fans do. The fans are the ones that create the sponsership, they are the ones paying $100 a seat to watch a hockey game or a tennis match.

Trying to build this sport off of "dead money" from low skilled players in pro level events is a lost cause. You are not going to get a truly awesome professional pool scene from shortstop players padding prize purses. The money that this sport needs, and that it will eventually get if it ever gets it at all will come from far greater fan interest and support, and that fan support and interest is actually boosted by tournaments where the top players in the world meet up at the late stages of the events and the cream rises to the top.

Sports live and die by the popularity of the top players. It is the Federer and Agassi of tennis, the Tiger Woods and Phil Mikkelson of golf, the Gretzky and Crosby of Hockey, ect... that make a sport popular to the fans. The top 10% of players in a sport produce 90% of the interest in that sport.

One of pools BIGGEST problems is that it has a tough time creating the sense of the top players. The games played are too easy for the top echelon of players and the cream of the crop does not actually rise to the top. Unlike tennis where the #1 player in the world is about a 90%+ favorite to beat the #50 player in the world pools #1 player in the world is probably no better then a 60% favorite to beat the #50 player in the world. That is how we get Shawn Putnam in the finals of the US Open 9-ball.

Until this sport can change the game, change the conditions to a degree where the difference in skill levels is finally clearly shown in competition it is going to fail to attract much fan interest. Alex vs Shane on the TAR table showed that the top player in the world CAN still play on tough equipment. Raj vs Oscar showed that the second teir players on equipment like that are a significant step below the top echelon. But we get an event like the US Open and it is on equipment where a guy like Raj can play, because the equipment is easy enough that it does not show his weakness in potting skills compared to a guy like SVB or Alex. Now Raj's big break is a serious threat and a game changer. His big break was irrelevant on the TAR table because regardless of his making a ball and getting a good spread he was not good enough to get out on that table.

This is why I have TRIED to explain the virtues of moving to the new 10-foot tables that diamond is building with 4 inch pockets. You will very quickly see who truly is the best, you will see the top 10 players in the world suddenly be BIG favorites against the guys who are not in the top 30. You will see the cream rise to the top, you will see one player clearly pull away from the pack and prove to be the BEST player in the world. ATM we have no clue who that person is. Is it SVB? Is it Orcullo? Is it Souquet? We all have opinions, but unlike other sports we are not shown who it actually is, and that is one of the things that sucks the most about pool as it stands atm and it is one of the main reasons the game has failed completely as a fan driven spectator sport.

 

[The Renfro]

The Behrman family history in pool is clearly tarnished. I don't see any of them working to fix it. What I do see are groups, the BCA and the ABP, taking on more of a management role with Barry. Pretty soon, they will find his "prize funders" and just cut him out altogether.

Once again you are speaking from a point of having knowledge only acquired from the bias of past posts.... There is a reason the US Open will be in it's 36th year....

Have there been issues at different times? Sure there have.... But I have no idea where you get the fodder to even feed most of your posts.....

The BCA has done nothing but escrow funds for the Open last year over the last decade.... Once upon a time they promoted events but they turned there back on the pro sport years ago and concentrated on their tradeshow and trade organization... This move was to insure the BCA president and small staff would continue to have security in their salaries......

The ABP has no one with much more than a high school education leading there pack and while they are organizing the pro ranks they are proving to be a fiasco in negotiations and marketing....

Barry agreed to their escrow and stuck a finger in their eye at the same time when he dropped the 1st place money from 40k to 30k and redistributed it to the lower half of the field.....

Without Shannon and Barry there would be no US Open.... Sure someone might try to come out of the woodwork and lay claim to it's name and try and borrow it's heritage but it would be a shadow of what it is.....

Do I agree with some of the things like slow pays in the past? absolutely not... But I do understand them.... What I don't understand is why you continue to cast stones when you KNOW nothing of the realities of the situations and history......

The Open at 30k will be higher paying this year than the WPA world championships... which are also infamous for slow pay and at least 1 is in jeopardy of not even happening... As the WPA 8ball world championship disappeared for 1-2 years......

The Open... DCC, Turning Stone and The US Bar Table championships are currently the bastions of pro pool on US soil..... Make no mistake... You remove Barry, Greg, Mike and Mark from the scene and the fat lady will start her song... She is already warming up with the folding of the Seminole events....

There is no one waiting to catch the torch or carry the flag if these tournaments fail... The state of the economy coupled with the chance of not breaking even on events has that list of persons reduced to nothing....

Travel expenses are keeping both players and spectators home now.... If the trend continues with the purses for the tournaments remaining stagnate because of lack of corporate sponsorships all of these tournaments are in jeopardy......

If you want to continue to rail at someone start emailing the cue makers, table makers and other people in the retail part of the industry..... Start badgering Hubbart and Bell to come off some APA sponsorship money.....

Your ire once again is misdirected....

 

[tattoosbyjay]

Just two quick points.
Seeding helps assure the best players make it deep and eventually win the tournament or place in the top four or five. It's kind of like insurance a 9-7 team like the NY Giants won't win the Super Bowl and be declared the BEST team in the league. Sure, they were in the top 8 teams, but if you think they were the best in the NFL you need your head examined. Seeding makes players like the Giants prove themselves worthy a little earlier in the tournament. One can still get into the money by facing no more than one pro -maybe none. Seems like they want to pay everyone. Paying 96th place out of a field of 256? Yay, everyone gets a trophy/ribbon/gold star!

Seeding also sets up more big name matchups in the middle and late in the tourney. Those are the matches the spectators come to see.
I have no idea what the tournaments make on spectators through entry and vendors, etc. but more people will pay money to see two top pros matching up in a match that matters than a top pro bashing an unknown in the fifth round.

if it is seeded then its not an open tourney , if they want to start seeding etc then its a pro event just like the upa used to do anyone could play but the top players were seeded i think the top 16 or something like that were seeded at least the one i played in thats how it was , no open event should be seeded at all its the so called short stops that make up a good portion of the field , without the so called dead monet where would these top players be ?

 

[rivercitysledge]

if it is seeded then its not an open tourney , if they want to start seeding etc then its a pro event just like the upa used to do anyone could play but the top players were seeded i think the top 16 or something like that were seeded at least the one i played in thats how it was , no open event should be seeded at all its the so called short stops that make up a good portion of the field , without the so called dead monet where would these top players be ?

best post yet...open means open..to be the best you got to beat the best...and no offense if any women players are seeded what does that say about this format?

 

[Rich R.]

I can't believe the players have carried Barry for so long hoping he would get it together on his own. It is obvious Barry needs the BCA and the ABP to learn how to survive in the changing world. But let's see what the Behrman's do.

Just how have the players carried Barry???

The players, in recent years via the UPA and the ABP, have done absolutely nothing but make demands. They don't help promote the Open and they don't do anything to raise added money for the prize fund. They just pay their entry fee and show up to play. Then they complain if their money isn't ready immediately. In fact, some of them that complain the most are past champions and they haven't even been paying their entry fees.

If the players organizations where so damn smart, they would be promoting their own pro tour and other major tournaments. I doubt if you will see that happening anytime soon.

 

[lfigueroa]

I know you have a lot of experience in this and that's just one reason I respect your opinion. I guess I'm struggling with what is "fair" for the average amateur. Yes, a completely blind draw is "fair" in that it is simply dumb luck as to who gets it easy and who gets it tough. But I just wonder if the top x number of players are spaced out down the chart if that helps make the results of the draw more equitable for the average amateur. I mean with a blind draw you could still draw the winner from last year in round one and the runner-up in the 2nd while I might get to cruise through playing guys not quite my speed. Yeah it was fair in that it was a blind draw, but did that draw result in equity for both you and I? That I'm not so sure about.

EDIT: The above was not intended to suggest we play the same speed.:grin:

I don't believe it is a question of what is fair for the average amateur." More like what is fair for all players.

And yes, I've drawn my share of pros in early rounds, like Efren, Buddy, Raphael, and more. But I have also drawn my share of guys who play much closer to my speed and that's because, typically, the pros are a smaller subset of the players in any given event. I just personally believe a promoter cannot ask you to support the event and then put your money at a statstical disadvantage. Maybe if they charged me 1/2 the entry the pros were paying I'd feel differently.

Lou Figueroa
and you're right
I hear you play
a ball better

 

[lfigueroa]

You don't want any favors and you don't want anybody else to get any favors. Well then you should have no problem then because anyone who is seeded has earned that privilege it's not a favor so I guess everyone should be happy then.

You're right, it's not a problem, because I won't support a seeded tournament

Why should I haul my ass half way across the country and pay the associated expenses when my odds of going 0-2 in the event have gone up significantly? Playing in big events is not a life or death decision for me. I do it for fun. And when I go to an "open" event I don't expect to be put at a disadvantage because of the draw. If that's going to happen, I'd rather then just find another event where that won't happen and spend my monies at that event.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

As a fan though? Fans want to see the top players playing against each other in the deep rounds of a tournament. They want to see Nadal vs Federer in the finals of Wimbeldon, not in the second round.

There's no way a total dog is going to go deep. Guys playing at a high level are still going to make it to the last group for the fans. And who doesn't like a Cinderella story, an underdog who catches lightning in a bottle? Now *that's* something for the fans.

Lou Figueroa

 

[JAM]

The Behrman family history in pool is clearly tarnished. I don't see any of them working to fix it. What I do see are groups, the BCA and the ABP, taking on more of a management role with Barry. Pretty soon, they will find his "prize funders" and just cut him out altogether.

Justnum, I am not sure you understand what entire story, and that's okay. As we all know, there's three sides to the story, right?

Unfortunately, the current male pro so-called "organization" seems to have the same attitude in its demands and strong-arming techniques as the UPA did when it first came to the pool scene. The original president of the UPA jumped ship and vacated the UPA when it was recognized they were nothing more than a sinking Titanic.

I fear the same thing will happen with the ABP. It's the same old song with this ABP as it was with the UPA. You would think that the members of the ABP that were also members of the UPA would come up with a better and different platform instead of supporting something that is destined to fail.

Of course, these are only my opinions. The ABP is not transparent. When they post on this forum, much like DP News, one never knows who is behind the curtain posting. The Wizard of Oz comes to mind. :grin:

Barry Behrman is only a man who happens to love pool. That's his only flaw, if you can call it that. At great personal expense, he's poured his life into this U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship. Yes, he's made some mistakes along the way, but who hasn't in this pool world? Running a tournament of this magnitude, there is no exact science. You put the news out there and hope for the best.

I think cutting the expenses is one way Barry can salvage this U.S. pool tradition. If you think pool sucks in Ameica now, well, do away with the U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship and see what you have left for the so-called "pros" to compete in.

How would you like them apples, ABP?! :angry:

The reason that the ABP can't get a tour going of their own is because no pool industry member in their right mind would sponsor this entity, the way it's currently run, again, similar to the sinking Titanic aka UPA.

 

[justnum]

People just need the same level of excitement about the ABP as they had about the IPT. That was a tour that knew how to do business. I mean everyone got paid whether it was late or not. I think it was because Kevin Trudeau wasn't from the pool community.

I agree that a lot of the insiders are self-sabotaging themselves.

When people can see the money to be made, things get better for everyone. But that is difficult if someone is trying to say the money isn't really there.

Justnum, I am not sure you understand what entire story, and that's okay. As we all know, there's three sides to the story, right?

Unfortunately, the current male pro so-called "organization" seems to have the same attitude in its demands and strong-arming techniques as the UPA did when it first came to the pool scene. The original president of the UPA jumped ship and vacated the UPA when it was recognized they were nothing more than a sinking Titanic.

I fear the same thing will happen with the ABP. It's the same old song with this ABP as it was with the UPA. You would think that the members of the ABP that were also members of the UPA would come up with a better and different platform instead of supporting something that is destined to fail.

Of course, these are only my opinions. The ABP is not transparent. When they post on this forum, much like DP News, one never knows who is behind the curtain posting. The Wizard of Oz comes to mind. :grin:

Barry Behrman is only a man who happens to love pool. That's his only flaw, if you can call it that. At great personal expense, he's poured his life into this U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship. Yes, he's made some mistakes along the way, but who hasn't in this pool world? Running a tournament of this magnitude, there is no exact science. You put the news out there and hope for the best.

I think cutting the expenses is one way Barry can salvage this U.S. pool tradition. If you think pool sucks in Ameica now, well, do away with the U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship and see what you have left for the so-called "pros" to compete in.

How would you like them apples, ABP?! :angry:

The reason that the ABP can't get a tour going of their own is because no pool industry member in their right mind would sponsor this entity, the way it's currently run, again, similar to the sinking Titanic aka UPA.

 

[JAM]

People just need the same level of excitement about the ABP as they had about the IPT. That was a tour that knew how to do business. I mean everyone got paid whether it was late or not. I think it was because Kevin Trudeau wasn't from the pool community.

I agree that a lot of the insiders are self-sabotaging themselves.

Justnum, comparing the ABP to the IPT?! :grin:

Let's see. The IPT gave each BCA HOF-er $30,000 for just showing up, win or lose in Orlando, December 2005. The IPT had several multi-million-dollar tournaments with green rooms and gifts for each player. The IPT welcomed players from around the world to compete.

The ABP is giving what to the pool world? Zip, nadda, zero, nothing. They're making demands and not offering anything in return.

Comparing the two is the difference of night and day. :embarrassed2:

 

[SUPERSTAR]

...as they had about the IPT. That was a tour that knew how to do business. I mean everyone got paid whether it was late or not. I think it was because Kevin Trudeau wasn't from the pool community.

Tell this to all the people who blew loads of money on qualifiers for a non existent tour.

Tell this to all the people who signed up for the IPT club, who had their credit cards charged repeatedly after the IPT was dead and buried.

 

[JAM]

Tell this to all the people who blew loads of money on qualifiers for a non existent tour.

Tell this to all the people who signed up for the IPT club, who had their credit cards charged repeatedly after the IPT was dead and buried.

But, SUPERSTAR, do you recall the UPA when it was in full swing? How about those who invested in that organization and its so-called tour, a tour that was based on promoters footing the entire bill? The UPA is so much like the ABP, it's uncanny.

 

[3andstop]

I can understand why weak players don't like it.

I'm asking what is wrong with seeding?

Why a spectator would want lesser players to advance farther that they should is what I'm not understanding.

Ok, I read and read .... I think what I'm thinking and just bite my lip, but .... I gotta, I mean I just gotta comment on that second paragraph with a question and a solution.

This by the way has nothing to do personally with your post, but with the reality of lesser players able to to move farther up than they should.

Why would lesser players go farther than they should have? A touch of luck, do I detect? I think we have to remove a ton of that stuff.

Ok, solution, How to prevent lesser players from moving farther up ...make the US Open 14.1 and see who really is the best, not who breaks the best. :thumbup:

 

[SUPERSTAR]

But, SUPERSTAR, do you recall the UPA when it was in full swing? How about those who invested in that organization and its so-called tour, a tour that was based on promoters footing the entire bill? The UPA is so much like the ABP, it's uncanny.

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, quacks like a duck...

 

[justnum]

Justnum, comparing the ABP to the IPT?! :grin:

Let's see. The IPT gave each BCA HOF-er $30,000 for just showing up, win or lose in Orlando, December 2005. The IPT had several multi-million-dollar tournaments with green rooms and gifts for each player. The IPT welcomed players from around the world to compete.

The ABP is giving what to the pool world? Zip, nadda, zero, nothing. They're making demands and not offering anything in return.

Comparing the two is the difference of night and day. :embarrassed2:

The ABP consists of the same players involved in the IPT and some new ones, they just don't have the marketing skill Kevin had. So far much like Kevin they are promising a better future for pool players.

Compared to pool promoters who just talk about prize money and added prize money, the ABP and IPT are more related than any other groups out there. The two are strikingly similar in how they conduct business. The IPT promises money and the ABP promises money (entry fees and players showing up). The main similarity is that both groups wanted/want to change how pool in America is organized.

 

[JAM]

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, quacks like a duck...

Ain't that the truth!

 

[justnum]

Tell this to all the people who blew loads of money on qualifiers for a non existent tour.

Tell this to all the people who signed up for the IPT club, who had their credit cards charged repeatedly after the IPT was dead and buried.

I heard something like this happen to the owner of the NEW YORK METS (a baseball team). Some guy took money from a bunch of saps and then gave it to famous people for favors.

In the IPT's case the players were giving out the favors. Is it right or wrong? Nobody pursued a legal opinion. Meaning people weren't willing to take legal action for what they were being billed for. Why complain now, when action could have been taken before?