8 Ball POOL TIPS on the Bar Box

[Razor]

Soldiers

Don't start picking off your own soldiers until you can "see" your way completely out. For example, if I can't see a highly probable way to get out, I may merely start my inning (after establishing solids/stripes) by placing one of my soldiers in a pocket where it is convenient for 2-3 of my opponents balls to go or sometimes right on front of the eight ball if it is near a pocket...thereby limiting them to 7 or less pockets on the table and all of my remaining soldiers congesting up that barbox.

Then again, I am not typically playing world beaters, so, as you can imagine, you have to adjust this (and other) strategies based on the skill level of your opponent. If they are most likely gonna run out anyway when you turn over the table with a fake safety, you might as well go for the less than likely run out yourself, all IMHO.

Peace and hit 'em straight...

~Razor

 

[Cdryden]

A good tip I picked up from my 8-ball league days was when the tables just *will.not* rack tight, don't hit 'em harder - go down to a 50% speed break, it actually spreads them better. I don't mean just a few balls with gaps, I mean when there are easily 8 more gaps all throughout the rack.

Has anyone else noticed that?

Yes, I had a guy show me that before and it has held true most of the time. I have also found this helps when you come across someone who is massaging the rack. (creating gaps to deaden the break)

 

[JoeyA]

I'm curious for those of you who use the 2nd ball break. Do you try to hit the side rail and then run back and forth across the table with the cue ball, or do you simply try to hit the 2nd ball and just get the cue ball to the side rail and not let the cue ball bounce off the side rail hard enough to run though the rack once or twice?

BTW, I have been told that in this event, the 8 ball on the break will be immediately spotted (if I am not mistaken) and you continue shooting.....

 

[the420trooper]

-Practice the combo shot where you pocket a hanger and follow in the first ball. That one should actually be written in big blue letters, it's so important. That shot comes up all the time.

This isn't as clear as it should have been. When an opponent misses and hangs up his ball, and blocks the pocket for your balls, you need to be able to pocket his hanger and follow your ball in.

Full hit on the hanger, draw on the CB turns to follow on the OB, and you get to win now.

 

[Koop]

I'm curious for those of you who use the 2nd ball break. Do you try to hit the side rail and then run back and forth across the table with the cue ball, or do you simply try to hit the 2nd ball and just get the cue ball to the side rail and not let the cue ball bounce off the side rail hard enough to run though the rack once or twice?

BTW, I have been told that in this event, the 8 ball on the break will be immediately spotted (if I am not mistaken) and you continue shooting.....

I hit it with a little inside english and as square as you can. The 8 ball rockets out of the pack fairly often and the cueball should go to the side rail and back into the cluster.

 

[BasementDweller]

Joey:

The stuff bolded above (in red) is key to the discussion -- more so than you may think. There's a big difference between cue ball control on a 7' Diamond (e.g. SmartTable) as opposed to the same cue ball control on a Valley barbox.

Reason: the heavy/magnetic/oversized/non-standard cue ball. That can't be overstated. If you're playing on a Valley Dynamo (which relies on cue ball weight to distinguish it from the rest of the object balls), that's going to be an Aramith Red Dot Dynamo cue ball -- the heaviest cue ball around. (It's 6.75 to 6.875 ounces -- more than a full ounce heavier than the object balls.) With this cue ball you have the "heavier mass hitting a lighter mass" physics problem -- i.e. not all of the cue ball's kinetic energy will be transferred to the object ball it's hitting, even with a stop-shot or draw shot. Attempting stop or draw shots with this cue ball will surprise you -- you'll smack the p*ss out of it -- even with draw -- and the cue ball still moves forward until the excess kinetic energy burns off, at which time the spin will start to grab. This cue ball "slides" or "lunges" forward on both stop and draw shots. You'll definitely need some time practicing with this ball to get the hang of it.

On a Valley Cougar or other like modern-ish Valley table, you may have the green "S"-logo'ed Aramith magnetic cue ball (the logo is the classic Aramith logo that looks kind of like a flattened "@" symbol, to the point where it assumes a wide "S" shape). This cue ball has a dullish, almost satin appearance, and responds differently as well -- although not as different as a Red Dot Dynamo ball, it's still enough of a difference from a regular cue ball that you should get some time practicing with one.

The great book by R. Givens, The 8-ball Bible, is probably your best tome of information related to this subject -- this is a book specialized to barbox play, and discusses in detail all these cueball nuances that you need to be familiar with.

Hope this is helpful,
-Sean

Those newer Valley cue balls that you are speaking of - the ones with the dull finish - I've found that those things really soak up the chalk. They cause an awful lot of skids. When you combine that with playing on a fast table, the skids can be brutal, since you're hitting so many soft shots. I make sure to clean off the cue ball before every rack. If I'm racking, I'll clean it off before rolling it up table, and if I'm breaking, I clean it before I break.

Since I've been doing this I haven't had nearly as many skids. Just something to keep in mind. I hate those skids!

 

[Razor]

This isn't as clear as it should have been. When an opponent misses and hangs up his ball, and blocks the pocket for your balls, you need to be able to pocket his hanger and follow your ball in.

Full hit on the hanger, draw on the CB turns to follow on the OB, and you get to win now.

And a good reason when playing safety to leave your hanger 2-3 inches outside of the pocket and not on a straight in angle, but sitll covering up a large portion of the hole, and hopefully blocking 1 or maybe 2-3 of your opponents balls. Makes the follow-in as noted above almost impossible to execute consistently, if at all...

 

[JoeyA]

Joey:

The stuff bolded above (in red) is key to the discussion -- more so than you may think. There's a big difference between cue ball control on a 7' Diamond (e.g. SmartTable) as opposed to the same cue ball control on a Valley barbox.

Reason: the heavy/magnetic/oversized/non-standard cue ball. That can't be overstated. If you're playing on a Valley Dynamo (which relies on cue ball weight to distinguish it from the rest of the object balls), that's going to be an Aramith Red Dot Dynamo cue ball -- the heaviest cue ball around. (It's 6.75 to 6.875 ounces -- more than a full ounce heavier than the object balls.) With this cue ball you have the "heavier mass hitting a lighter mass" physics problem -- i.e. not all of the cue ball's kinetic energy will be transferred to the object ball it's hitting, even with a stop-shot or draw shot. Attempting stop or draw shots with this cue ball will surprise you -- you'll smack the p*ss out of it -- even with draw -- and the cue ball still moves forward until the excess kinetic energy burns off, at which time the spin will start to grab. This cue ball "slides" or "lunges" forward on both stop and draw shots. You'll definitely need some time practicing with this ball to get the hang of it.

On a Valley Cougar or other like modern-ish Valley table, you may have the green "S"-logo'ed Aramith magnetic cue ball (the logo is the classic Aramith logo that looks kind of like a flattened "@" symbol, to the point where it assumes a wide "S" shape). This cue ball has a dullish, almost satin appearance, and responds differently as well -- although not as different as a Red Dot Dynamo ball, it's still enough of a difference from a regular cue ball that you should get some time practicing with one.

The great book by R. Givens, The 8-ball Bible, is probably your best tome of information related to this subject -- this is a book specialized to barbox play, and discusses in detail all these cueball nuances that you need to be familiar with.

Hope this is helpful,
-Sean

I took a quick look at a couple of samples of what is in the 8 ball bible and I am POSITIVE that it has some GREAT examples for helping your 8 ball game, BUT, I read one suggestion that I don't think I agree with. It suggests that running into clusters is better with soft speed than it is with faster speed. It suggests faster speed is for suckers.

One of the techniques I learned from watching a guy named Bubba, is something I call "MUSCLING". On many bar tables, I have noticed that the cue ball has a "habit" of sticking to object balls" after coming in contact with them, especially when you try to break out a cluster. You MUST hit the cue ball hard enough or with enough follow or English so that the cue ball separates from the cluster. In the past, I remember being frustrated that the cue ball stuck to the cluster because I didn't "muscle" the shot and most of the time muscling the shot means more speed or enough speed or English to separate from the cluster.

Anyway, not knocking 8 ball bible, just making a mental note for myself.

Also, I realize I can read lots of great books to improve my game, which I do but now, I am mining the great minds of AZ Billiards. :smile:

 

[JoeyA]

I hit it with a little inside english and as square as you can. The 8 ball rockets out of the pack fairly often and the cueball should go to the side rail and back into the cluster.

Cool.

I think using English is good for some people and not so good for others. I think each person should try using English on the break and find out if they have the control they need. I believe that some people actually break better with English while others break better without English.

At first I thought you were going to say that the cue ball hits the side rail then the bottom rail (because of the inside English). I'll give the Inside english a try because I haven't used Inside English on the 2nd ball break yet.

Thanks,

 

[Tennesseejoe]

One of the mistakes I observe is a player taking the balls that he has made to most of on the break. If you make 4 stripes and 1 solid --- think of this. Take the solids. When you get down to last couple of balls, there are only a couple of stripes to block your runout. But if you take the stripes, there will be 6 solids and the 8 ball to block the finish of your run.

Making a couple extra balls is easy compared to dodging a cluttered table.

 

[JoeyA]

One of the mistakes I observe is a player taking the balls that he has made to most of on the break. If you make 4 stripes and 1 solid --- think of this. Take the solids. When you get down to last couple of balls, there are only a couple of stripes to block your runout. But if you take the stripes, there will be 6 solids and the 8 ball to block the finish of your run.

Making a couple extra balls is easy compared to dodging a cluttered table.

Makes good sense, especially if neither stripes or solids has obstacles.

 

[JoeyA]

WHEW! I am already worn out.

Thanks for the heads-up contributions. They were all great. Now I have to get ready to practice some of these tips.

 

[sfleinen]

[...]
Also, I realize I can read lots of great books to improve my game, which I do but now, I am mining the great minds of AZ Billiards. :smile:

Ah, I see. Let us do the work for you. Does the "A" in JoeyA mean "Armchair" per chance?



J/K,
-Sean

 

[spatlese44]

1. If your balls are tied up in clusters, you must make EARLY efforts to break out the clusters. The sooner you break out the clusters the better off you will be.
Let's hear your best advice for playing your best 8 ball.

Yes, but... I see a lot of players go for what are esentially improbable breakouts with the net result being that they have no idea what will happen if they miss the breakout (or the shot altogether). Somewhat your decision should depend on a mix of how good you are and how good your oponent is.

 

[stljohnny]

Yes, but... I see a lot of players go for what are esentially improbable breakouts with the net result being that they have no idea what will happen if they miss the breakout (or the shot altogether). Somewhat your decision should depend on a mix of how good you are and how good your oponent is.

This is where the concept of an "insurance ball" must be used. You simply can't risk the outcome of a cluster breakout without knowing you'll get a shot. This is the other half of the reason to deal with clusters asap - as there's more likelihood for another ball to be available should the cluster not break up in your favor.

 

[Okie]

I took a quick look at a couple of samples of what is in the 8 ball bible and I am POSITIVE that it has some GREAT examples for helping your 8 ball game, BUT, I read one suggestion that I don't think I agree with. It suggests that running into clusters is better with soft speed than it is with faster speed. It suggests faster speed is for suckers.

One of the techniques I learned from watching a guy named Bubba, is something I call "MUSCLING". On many bar tables, I have noticed that the cue ball has a "habit" of sticking to object balls" after coming in contact with them, especially when you try to break out a cluster. You MUST hit the cue ball hard enough or with enough follow or English so that the cue ball separates from the cluster. In the past, I remember being frustrated that the cue ball stuck to the cluster because I didn't "muscle" the shot and most of the time muscling the shot means more speed or enough speed or English to separate from the cluster.

Anyway, not knocking 8 ball bible, just making a mental note for myself.

Also, I realize I can read lots of great books to improve my game, which I do but now, I am mining the great minds of AZ Billiards. :smile:

I think every cluster is different and should be treated as such. When I attack a cluster I always do it with as much accuracy as I can. I am sure you do as well. That said...some clusters just need a subtle reminder to separate. Others are like my ex wife...no matter how hard you hit em they don't go anywhere. My advice would be to read the cluster and attack it at the optimal time and place.

Also, if you have balls stacked on side rails look to clear 'em up early. Stacked balls left to the end are more difficult to play shape on and if you end up missing can give your opponent an opportunity to hook you with your own balls.

Good luck up there!

p.s. I never hit my ex-wife

 

[Neil]

I took a quick look at a couple of samples of what is in the 8 ball bible and I am POSITIVE that it has some GREAT examples for helping your 8 ball game, BUT, I read one suggestion that I don't think I agree with. It suggests that running into clusters is better with soft speed than it is with faster speed. It suggests faster speed is for suckers.

One of the techniques I learned from watching a guy named Bubba, is something I call "MUSCLING". On many bar tables, I have noticed that the cue ball has a "habit" of sticking to object balls" after coming in contact with them, especially when you try to break out a cluster. You MUST hit the cue ball hard enough or with enough follow or English so that the cue ball separates from the cluster. In the past, I remember being frustrated that the cue ball stuck to the cluster because I didn't "muscle" the shot and most of the time muscling the shot means more speed or enough speed or English to separate from the cluster.

Anyway, not knocking 8 ball bible, just making a mental note for myself.

Also, I realize I can read lots of great books to improve my game, which I do but now, I am mining the great minds of AZ Billiards. :smile:

Joey, I believe what he meant was not to SLAM into clusters. Same as when playing 14.1. You want to separate the balls with control. Not send them flying all over to potentially create other clusters.

 

[Aten]

Playing on valley boxes, Joey? Don't try too much to get 100% perfect position... rather, use your accuracy to compensate. Too many times I've tried to draw the cue ball 3 feet back to get 6 inches away from my game ball (then overran shape or ended up frozen to the 8 lol) when I could just as easily have stunned the ball and just shot a 3.5 foot straight in (not saying you shouldn't try to draw a bit... just that moving the cue ball too much in 8 ball seems to be much much riskier). Similarly I have just as many times sewered in the side while drawing off a long rail to reach a ball on the other long rail (actually Charlie Bryant has a vid on his site demonstrating this exact scenario) when it would have been much safer to simply stun across the table and shoot a longer shot.

 

[TheNewSharkster]

You have to examine the averages here which will vary from player to player. If you play a lot of 8-ball, you'll want to try to keep track of:

Hitting 2nd Ball
1. Number of times you make the 8 on the break
2. Number of times you run out
(these two can be grouped together)
3. Number of times you failed to make a ball and your opponent ran out
4. Games won
5. Games lost


Hitting 1st Ball
1. Number of times you make the 8 on the break
2. Number of times you run out
(these two can be grouped together)
3. Number of times you failed to make a ball and your opponent ran out
4. Games won
5. Games lost


With a strong player, 1+2 may yield better results from hitting the 1st ball while a weaker player who rarely runs out will get better results from hitting the 2nd. With that said, there's a huge gray area for intermediate/advanced players and/or players who are particularly good at making the 8 on the break.

IMO, you should give both about 20 tries in practice. See which one allows you to win the game without your opponent shooting. If you fail to pocket a ball, try to determine the likelihood an opponent you're likely to face would run out. If the table is not runnable, you can deduce those games are a 50/50 split.

Against strong players I always do the 2nd ball break (assuming the 8ball counts as a win). I hate nothing more than breaking down the middle and leaving a table full of ducks for my opponent. Usually it seems like the 8ball break leaves balls tied up so in the case you don't sink the 8ball the table is going to be tough to run out. Slows the game down but IMO it improves your chance of winning.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Against strong players I always do the 2nd ball break (assuming the 8ball counts as a win). I hate nothing more than breaking down the middle and leaving a table full of ducks for my opponent. Usually it seems like the 8ball break leaves balls tied up so in the case you don't sink the 8ball the table is going to be tough to run out. Slows the game down but IMO it improves your chance of winning.

Is this APA in a handicapped situation or are you playing these stronger players even-up? In 100 games, how often do you think you'd break and run out? Break and make a ball?