How Fractional Aiming Systems Help
- Thread starter Patrick Johnson
- Start date
This kind of reminds me of PJ in this thread.
I will tell you what "others can see:"
They can see that you are willing to attack a person's credibility and the validity of their review because they don't remember three shots off a DVD watched a year ago. You are even willing to make the accusation that the DVD was not watched all the way through, which is pretty absurd, because no one posting a review is going to hang themselves out like that, particularly on a controversial subject.
Just because a reviewer does not recall a particular line of dialogue or scene from a movie or book, watched or read a year ago, does not mean they didn't watch/read it. And it certainly does not invalidate their review.
That's what "others can see" and it says far more about you than it does PJ.
Have a nice day.
Lou Figueroa
No Champ. You aren't the only one who sees past the constant spin.
There are many others who tire of Patrick's duplicity. Unfortunately, many of them simply don't want to get down in the mud with him.
It would be one thing if he would say that every single shot requires feel, so CTE/Pro1 also requires feel. (That's by Dave's definition of feel: perception and judgement) But he's not just saying that.
Then he goes on to accuse Stan Shuffett of being a Slickster. He's desperate to slander Stan and CTE/Pro1. Patrick has made a mockery of himself once again.
I am hoping everybody can agree to end to all of the immature and childish schoolyard exchanges before yet another CTE thread is killed by the almighty AZB Administrators. If we are lucky, mature, and civil, maybe this thread can actually return to substantive, meaningful, and useful discussion and debate. How about we return to Stan's original question, before things got out of control:
Here are the three famous (or infamous) shots that you specifically address on your DVD:
Shot "A" is about a 10-degree cut, shot "B" is about a 15-degree cut, and shot "C" is about a 20-degree cut. All three shots fit into the "thick cut" category of CTE. Also, the CB-to-OB distance is the same for all three shots. If the bridge length and pivot amount is the same for all three shots, a pertinent question is: What do you do differently with the alignment and/or pivot steps of CTE to pocket each of the three shots?
BTW, these three shots were brought up many years ago, long before your version of CTE came on the scene, so they were originally intended for discussion with previous versions of CTE; although, they still apply in the current debate.
Some CTE/Pro-One users have seemed to claim that the same alignment and pivot is used for all three shots. Some seem to have claimed that a different alignment and/or pivot is used for each. There seems to be confusion about this in the CTE/Pro-One community. Honestly, I haven't watched your DVD in a while and don't remember which alignments and pivots you suggest. Regardless, for discussion purposes, instead of the 5 shots you request, let's make it 15 shots instead. Let's have the 15 shots be equally spaced between shots A and C above.
As is clear on your DVD and in the brief summary of your approach, as interpreted by me, the alignment and pivot choices change with shot cut angle. As the cut angle changes in small increments between shots A and C, the choices for alignment and pivot change at certain points in the range. At each point where they change, because neighboring shots of the group of 15 are so close together, it seems reasonable to conclude that different alignments and pivots should be able to be used to pocket the same shot. It also seems reasonable that the alignment and pivot will not change for certain ranges of shots among the 15. Therefore, it would seem reasonable to conclude that a single alignment and pivot should be able to be used to create a range of cut angles. However, if you follow the procedure listed here accurately and consistently (and don't make any "adjustments" whatsoever), it seems to me that it would result in the exact same cut angle every time for a selected alignment and pivot, and for a given CB-OB distance and chosen bridge length, assuming a rigid and fixed bridge. Obviously, this particular cut angle will work for some of the shots in the range, and it won't work for others (depending on the distance to and size of the pocket), because every shot in the range requires a different cut angle (assuming center-pocket aiming).
Now, does that mean you can't make CTE work for all shots at a table? Absolutely not. I have suggested four ways it can be made to work, despite the apparent challenges. This is where the "visual intelligence," "adjustment," "experience-based intuition," and "feel" come into play. (Also, with enough practice, a person might be able to learn to do one or more of the four techniques suggested naturally and even subconsciously ... to where they might not even know they are doing them.) I certainly don't think there is anything wrong with a system that involves "experience-based intuition"; in fact, I think "aiming systems" and "pre-shot routines" like CTE and Pro-One offer many real benefits for some people.
I hope that helps clarify things a little. I think these concepts and issues are at the heart of the controversy with align-and-pivot systems, as has been the case for 15 years.
BTW the way, I don't want to restart this whole debate again. It has gone on for too long and I feel I have addressed the issues as well as I possibly can in this post and on my resource pages. Although, I will continue to listen and learn if people share new and meaningful insight. I am also happy to clarify anything that is unclear in my explanation above (in response to any civil and mature questions or comments).
Regards,
Dave
Here are the three famous (or infamous) shots that you specifically address on your DVD:
Shot "A" is about a 10-degree cut, shot "B" is about a 15-degree cut, and shot "C" is about a 20-degree cut. All three shots fit into the "thick cut" category of CTE. Also, the CB-to-OB distance is the same for all three shots. If the bridge length and pivot amount is the same for all three shots, a pertinent question is: What do you do differently with the alignment and/or pivot steps of CTE to pocket each of the three shots?
BTW, these three shots were brought up many years ago, long before your version of CTE came on the scene, so they were originally intended for discussion with previous versions of CTE; although, they still apply in the current debate.
Some CTE/Pro-One users have seemed to claim that the same alignment and pivot is used for all three shots. Some seem to have claimed that a different alignment and/or pivot is used for each. There seems to be confusion about this in the CTE/Pro-One community. Honestly, I haven't watched your DVD in a while and don't remember which alignments and pivots you suggest. Regardless, for discussion purposes, instead of the 5 shots you request, let's make it 15 shots instead. Let's have the 15 shots be equally spaced between shots A and C above.
As is clear on your DVD and in the brief summary of your approach, as interpreted by me, the alignment and pivot choices change with shot cut angle. As the cut angle changes in small increments between shots A and C, the choices for alignment and pivot change at certain points in the range. At each point where they change, because neighboring shots of the group of 15 are so close together, it seems reasonable to conclude that different alignments and pivots should be able to be used to pocket the same shot. It also seems reasonable that the alignment and pivot will not change for certain ranges of shots among the 15. Therefore, it would seem reasonable to conclude that a single alignment and pivot should be able to be used to create a range of cut angles. However, if you follow the procedure listed here accurately and consistently (and don't make any "adjustments" whatsoever), it seems to me that it would result in the exact same cut angle every time for a selected alignment and pivot, and for a given CB-OB distance and chosen bridge length, assuming a rigid and fixed bridge. Obviously, this particular cut angle will work for some of the shots in the range, and it won't work for others (depending on the distance to and size of the pocket), because every shot in the range requires a different cut angle (assuming center-pocket aiming).
Now, does that mean you can't make CTE work for all shots at a table? Absolutely not. I have suggested four ways it can be made to work, despite the apparent challenges. This is where the "visual intelligence," "adjustment," "experience-based intuition," and "feel" come into play. (Also, with enough practice, a person might be able to learn to do one or more of the four techniques suggested naturally and even subconsciously ... to where they might not even know they are doing them.) I certainly don't think there is anything wrong with a system that involves "experience-based intuition"; in fact, I think "aiming systems" and "pre-shot routines" like CTE and Pro-One offer many real benefits for some people.
I hope that helps clarify things a little. I think these concepts and issues are at the heart of the controversy with align-and-pivot systems, as has been the case for 15 years.
BTW the way, I don't want to restart this whole debate again. It has gone on for too long and I feel I have addressed the issues as well as I possibly can in this post and on my resource pages. Although, I will continue to listen and learn if people share new and meaningful insight. I am also happy to clarify anything that is unclear in my explanation above (in response to any civil and mature questions or comments).
Regards,
Dave
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Good spin, Lou! Those shots are in some way landmark CTE shots and PJ did not give Dr. Dave's 3 shots their due. If he had of, he would have known of their presence in the DVD contents.
From post #379:
To get a thinner cut angle move the bridge to the left going from A to B to C toward the original CTE bridge location
In order to change that discrete cut angle to one that is thinner or thicker, one can shift his dominant eye/s to the side of the original position by tilting or moving the head and eye/s to the desired side to achieve a new line that can be adjusted to by moving the cue, bridge and stance to a new location.
The pivot the tip of the cue to the center of the CB and adjust the head and eye/s and stance to the pivot - stroke and shoot.
To get a thinner cut angle move the bridge to the left going from A to B to C toward the original CTE bridge location
In order to change that discrete cut angle to one that is thinner or thicker, one can shift his dominant eye/s to the side of the original position by tilting or moving the head and eye/s to the desired side to achieve a new line that can be adjusted to by moving the cue, bridge and stance to a new location.
The pivot the tip of the cue to the center of the CB and adjust the head and eye/s and stance to the pivot - stroke and shoot.
Dr. Dave, put your 15 shots up and their visuals and pivots. I'd like to see how well you understand cte pro one.
You seem to know my system well enough to be capable of that
I am not afraid to evaluate those shots of the 15 that you say will not work. Just present the shots and visuals pivots and I'll see where you are in cte pro one.
You seem to know my system well enough to be capable of that
I am not afraid to evaluate those shots of the 15 that you say will not work. Just present the shots and visuals pivots and I'll see where you are in cte pro one.
Hmmm, off of work and missed 18 pages in 2 days... Thread has outlived it's useful life, too bad, will have to wait for another one - again...
Scott
Scott
brad21156
Registered
Patrick really dropped his pants in this thread. At least we know who was the REAL snake oil salesman now. Anyone that purchased the Pro-1 DVD knows that Stan spent an extensive amount of time on the three shots that dr_dave has post (three times in the last three pages).
Should it come as a shock that the three guys that did everything they could to discredit Stan are now trying to come to the aid of Patrick?
Birds of a feather.....
I just want to point out who said "snake oil" first.
Lou Figueroa
good term
might come in handy
oh yeah, and it's not like Stan doesn't have the entire Grand Ole Opry backing him right now, lol.
Three against all youse... go get more guys, so it'll be a fair fight
Lou Figueroa
brad21156
Registered
oh yeah, and it's not like Stan doesn't have the entire Grand Ole Opry backing him right now, lol.
Three against all youse... go get more guys, so it'll be a fair fight
Lou Figueroa
You may be looking to fight. I think the majority of us are here to learn.
Here's your post that I responded to:
"Patrick really dropped his pants in this thread. At least we know who was the REAL snake oil salesman now. Anyone that purchased the Pro-1 DVD knows that Stan spent an extensive amount of time on the three shots that dr_dave has post (three times in the last three pages).
Should it come as a shock that the three guys that did everything they could to discredit Stan are now trying to come to the aid of Patrick?
Birds of a feather....."
Now you tell me who's looking to fight.
Lou Figueroa
brad21156
Registered
Not me. All I did was state the obvious.
Stan,I am hoping everybody can agree to end to all of the immature and childish schoolyard exchanges before yet another CTE thread is killed by the almighty AZB Administrators. If we are lucky, mature, and civil, maybe this thread can actually return to substantive, meaningful, and useful discussion and debate. How about we return to Stan's original question, before things got out of control:
Here are the three famous (or infamous) shots that you specifically address on your DVD:
Shot "A" is about a 10-degree cut, shot "B" is about a 15-degree cut, and shot "C" is about a 20-degree cut. All three shots fit into the "thick cut" category of CTE. Also, the CB-to-OB distance is the same for all three shots. If the bridge length and pivot amount is the same for all three shots, a pertinent question is: What do you do differently with the alignment and/or pivot steps of CTE to pocket each of the three shots?
BTW, these three shots were brought up many years ago, long before your version of CTE came on the scene, so they were originally intended for discussion with previous versions of CTE; although, they still apply in the current debate.
Some CTE/Pro-One users have seemed to claim that the same alignment and pivot is used for all three shots. Some seem to have claimed that a different alignment and/or pivot is used for each. There seems to be confusion about this in the CTE/Pro-One community. Honestly, I haven't watched your DVD in a while and don't remember which alignments and pivots you suggest. Regardless, for discussion purposes, instead of the 5 shots you request, let's make it 15 shots instead. Let's have the 15 shots be equally spaced between shots A and C above.
As is clear on your DVD and in the brief summary of your approach, as interpreted by me, the alignment and pivot choices change with shot cut angle. As the cut angle changes in small increments between shots A and C, the choices for alignment and pivot change at certain points in the range. At each point where they change, because neighboring shots of the group of 15 are so close together, it seems reasonable to conclude that different alignments and pivots should be able to be used to pocket the same shot. It also seems reasonable that the alignment and pivot will not change for certain ranges of shots among the 15. Therefore, it would seem reasonable to conclude that a single alignment and pivot should be able to be used to create a range of cut angles. However, if you follow the procedure listed here accurately and consistently (and don't make any "adjustments" whatsoever), it seems to me that it would result in the exact same cut angle every time for a selected alignment and pivot, and for a given CB-OB distance and chosen bridge length, assuming a rigid and fixed bridge. Obviously, this particular cut angle will work for some of the shots in the range, and it won't work for others (depending on the distance to and size of the pocket), because every shot in the range requires a different cut angle (assuming center-pocket aiming).
Now, does that mean you can't make CTE work for all shots at a table? Absolutely not. I have suggested four ways it can be made to work, despite the apparent challenges. This is where the "visual intelligence," "adjustment," "experience-based intuition," and "feel" come into play. (Also, with enough practice, a person might be able to learn to do one or more of the four techniques suggested naturally and even subconsciously ... to where they might not even know they are doing them.) I certainly don't think there is anything wrong with a system that involves "experience-based intuition"; in fact, I think "aiming systems" and "pre-shot routines" like CTE and Pro-One offer many real benefits for some people.
I hope that helps clarify things a little. I think these concepts and issues are at the heart of the controversy with align-and-pivot systems, as has been the case for 15 years.
BTW the way, I don't want to restart this whole debate again. It has gone on for too long and I feel I have addressed the issues as well as I possibly can in this post and on my resource pages. Although, I will continue to listen and learn if people share new and meaningful insight. I am also happy to clarify anything that is unclear in my explanation above (in response to any civil and mature questions or comments).
Regards,
Dave
Dr. Dave, put your 15 shots up and their visuals and pivots. I'd like to see how well you understand cte pro one.
You seem to know my system well enough to be capable of that
I am not afraid to evaluate those shots of the 15 that you say will not work. Just present the shots and visuals pivots and I'll see where you are in cte pro one.
Honestly, I'm not interested in trying to guess what alignments and pivots you or other CTE users might use for each of the 15 shots. What I am interested in is a basic understanding of the conceptual questions implied by the following paragraph (quoted from above):
As is clear on your DVD and in the brief summary of your approach, as interpreted by me, the alignment and pivot choices change with shot cut angle. As the cut angle changes in small increments between shots A and C, the choices for alignment and pivot change at certain points in the range. At each point where they change, because neighboring shots of the group of 15 are so close together, it seems reasonable to conclude that different alignments and pivots should be able to be used to pocket the same shot. It also seems reasonable that the alignment and pivot will not change for certain ranges of shots among the 15. Therefore, it would seem reasonable to conclude that a single alignment and pivot should be able to be used to create a range of cut angles. However, if you follow the procedure listed here accurately and consistently (and don't make any "adjustments" whatsoever), it seems to me that it would result in the exact same cut angle every time for a selected alignment and pivot, and for a given CB-OB distance and chosen bridge length, assuming a rigid and fixed bridge. Obviously, this particular cut angle will work for some of the shots in the range, and it won't work for others (depending on the distance to and size of the pocket), because every shot in the range requires a different cut angle (assuming center-pocket aiming).
Here are the important conceptual questions implied by the paragraph:
1.) Can two different alignments and pivots be used to pocket the same shot (e.g., a cut angle between two of the 15 shots where a slightly thicker cut would suggest one alignment/pivot choice and a slightly thinner cut would suggest a different alignment/pivot choice)?
2.) If a single alignment/pivot selection can be used to pocket a range of shots (e.g., a sub group of the 15 shots that all use the same alignment and pivot), what does the shooter do differently (related to the procedural steps) to accomplish the different cut angles required within the indicated range of shots?
I think answers to these questions are key to understanding CTE and how it is used effectively. You are probably the best person to provide answers, so I look forward to your explanations.
Thank you,
Dave
PS: BTW, if you really want me to guess at appropriate alignment and pivot choices for each of the 15 shots, I'd be happy to take a stab at this for you, but I honestly don't think it would serve any useful purpose. On the other hand, it would be interesting to hear what different CTE users would select for each shot. Do you think most CTE users would select the same alignments and pivots for the 15 shots that you would? I would suspect there would be a lot of inconsistency in the selections. And maybe it wouldn't matter what people select as long as they have a good "feel" for how to make it work at the table.
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