Do you realie that Aiming is Intuitive???? (Type 1)

A

AimWithYourMind

Banned
When we aim in any sport, or any activity in life, it is system 1 that does the aiming.

If you don't know, system 1 is the intuitive portion of our brain. System 2 is the slower, computing, rational portion of our brain.

When we throw a football, we do not need to calculate how far away the receiver is. We do not need to compute the altitude that we must throw the ball at. This is all compute automatically by system 1. It is our intuition.

Trying to "block out" system 1 activities is extremely difficult. Why do you think people say it is difficult to miss a shot on purpose? System 1 is trying to pocket the ball which is automatic. System 2 is fighting against it when you are trying to miss on purpose.

Golfers do not have an aiming formula. Quarterbacks do not. Bowlers do not. Archers do not. Marksmen do not. Kids on the playground do not. Baseball pitchers do not. Baseball hitters do not. Basketball players do not.

Skill in accuracy can be gained from repeated trials, where feedback is received as to your success or failure. If feedback was hidden (if you were prevented from seeing if you pocketed the ball) you would not see improvement.

Your skill cannot be improved by instituting an aiming system. The only way to imrove is to train system 1 through repeated trials. System 1 learns slowly. System 2 learns quickly. System 2 can learn a formula instantly and begin using it in computations. System 1 learns slowly. It requires constant feedback and many trials in order to see a change.

You cannot institute an aiming system for a pitcher and make him all of a sudden throw strikes. But you can subject the pitcher to thousands of trials where he received instant feedback (ball or strike) and he will see improved accuracy.

There is more but the discussion will last weeks.

What is important is the mechanics. The mechanics of a pool stroke are not operated by System 1. It is not natural for you to execute a pool stroke. That is where instruction is beneficial.

The only important concept is to deliver the cue in a straight line at the point you intended to hit.

I repeat, I repeat, you cannot be taught how to aim. You can only improve your aim through repeated trials.

Your mechanics are important. Yes, the position of your head is important.

But you cannot be taught how to aim.

I am deeply concerned over all the threads with so much misinformation. It makes me very sick.

It takes a basic knowledge of psychology to understand system 1 and 2 decision making. I'm just done with it.

(I apologize for the missing letters, my keyboard is not in good condition)
 
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Aloha and finally,

S:smile:omebody gets it. I love this game and couldn't tell you what I'm doing half the time. I think I shoot ok however...

Mahalo,
Carl
 
If you can't be taught how to aim then let's have a little bet.

We go out on the street and find two people who have never played pool or any other sport which requires aiming.

You get your person for a week and I get mine. You can teach them to stroke and that's it. I get to teach mine how to stroke and how to aim using whatever methods I think will work.

After one week we let them play some pool for say $1000 a set.

Bet?
 
http://www.livestrong.com/article/432547-how-to-throw-a-football-more-accurately/

Trying to teach aiming in football:

http://www.ehow.com/how_8297476_throw-football-through-tire.html

Pool related:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...throws-college-footballer-Johnny-McEntee.html


http://www.footballscrimmage.com/articles/quarterback-basic-training.shtml
"One thing that helps our quarterback with this follow through is to use the "imaginary line" principal, particularly to help develop accuracy. An "imaginary line" is one that extends from you to the target. The left foot should land on the left side of this line and the right foot on the right. The body will be squared up properly if this is done. Drop your throwing hand naturally as you release the ball - usually this hand will end up somewhere around the inside of the lead leg as you complete the throwing action."

ONLY Pool lags so far behind other world class sports as to still have people who don't believe that a scientific and systematic approach to skill building leads to higher performance.

And people wonder why pool is not taken seriously.
 
JB Cases said:
http://www.livestrong.com/article/432547-how-to-throw-a-football-more-accurately/

Trying to teach aiming in football:

http://www.ehow.com/how_8297476_throw-football-through-tire.html

Pool related:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...throws-college-footballer-Johnny-McEntee.html


http://www.footballscrimmage.com/articles/quarterback-basic-training.shtml
"One thing that helps our quarterback with this follow through is to use the "imaginary line" principal, particularly to help develop accuracy. An "imaginary line" is one that extends from you to the target. The left foot should land on the left side of this line and the right foot on the right. The body will be squared up properly if this is done. Drop your throwing hand naturally as you release the ball - usually this hand will end up somewhere around the inside of the lead leg as you complete the throwing action."

ONLY Pool lags so far behind other world class sports as to still have people who don't believe that a scientific and systematic approach to skill building leads to higher performance.

And people wonder why pool is not taken seriously.
Click to expand...

I think we need to make a distinction between an aiming system and mechanics.
 
AimWithYourMind said:
When we aim in any sport, or any activity in life, it is system 1 that does the aiming.

If you don't know, system 1 is the intuitive portion of our brain. System 2 is the slower, computing, rational portion of our brain.

When we throw a football, we do not need to calculate how far away the receiver is. We do not need to compute the altitude that we must throw the ball at. This is all compute automatically by system 1. It is our intuition.

Trying to "block out" system 1 activities is extremely difficult. Why do you think people say it is difficult to miss a shot on purpose? System 1 is trying to pocket the ball which is automatic. System 2 is fighting against it when you are trying to miss on purpose.

Golfers do not have an aiming formula. Quarterbacks do not. Bowlers do not. Archers do not. Marksmen do not. Kids on the playground do not. Baseball pitchers do not. Baseball hitters do not. Basketball players do not.

Skill in accuracy can be gained from repeated trials, where feedback is received as to your success or failure. If feedback was hidden (if you were prevented from seeing if you pocketed the ball) you would not see improvement.

Your skill cannot be improved by instituting an aiming system. The only way to imrove is to train system 1 through repeated trials. System 1 learns slowly. System 2 learns quickly. System 2 can learn a formula instantly and begin using it in computations. System 1 learns slowly. It requires constant feedback and many trials in order to see a change.

You cannot institute an aiming system for a pitcher and make him all of a sudden throw strikes. But you can subject the pitcher to thousands of trials where he received instant feedback (ball or strike) and he will see improved accuracy.

There is more but the discussion will last weeks.

What is important is the mechanics. The mechanics of a pool stroke are not operated by System 1. It is not natural for you to execute a pool stroke. That is where instruction is beneficial.

The only important concept is to deliver the cue in a straight line at the point you intended to hit.

I repeat, I repeat, you cannot be taught how to aim. You can only improve your aim through repeated trials.

Your mechanics are important. Yes, the position of your head is important.

But you cannot be taught how to aim.

I am deeply concerned over all the threads with so much misinformation. It makes me very sick.

It takes a basic knowledge of psychology to understand system 1 and 2 decision making. I'm just done with it.

(I apologize for the missing letters, my keyboard is not in good condition)
Click to expand...

Most accurate post on aiming i have seen. Ask any good player how they aim and most can't tell you. How could anyone prove they use a certain aiming system anyway?
 
exoldschoolpro said:
Most accurate post on aiming i have seen. Ask any good player how they aim and most can't tell you. How could anyone prove they use a certain aiming system anyway?
Click to expand...

Here is another wrinkle in things. It is complicated, but can be summed up easily enough......

If you use an aiming system and you believe that it helps you aim, you are STILL using your instincts (system 1) to aim.

You cannot simply turn off system 1 (your intuition).

You will attribute your success to an aiming system, when a portion of your success will actually be derived from your intuition.
 
AimWithYourMind said:
But you cannot be taught how to aim.

I am deeply concerned over all the threads with so much misinformation. It makes me very sick.
Click to expand...

We forgive you as you know not of what you speak. Really, you can't teach someone to "aim" in baseball. I did it every day as a HS baseball coach....

Example, point the left shoulder toward first base, eyes on his glove, elbow up, hand back, and come over the top with a downward and even release puts the ball in the right path, now it is only a matter of the ball going in high or low, but it is going to first base....and then one can adjust the release point to get the proper aim into the glove.... this is a little simplified, but it gets the job done.... but they are aiming.... and may aim the rest of their lives, and the good ones it just become automatic....
 
ChicagoRJ said:
We forgive you as you know not of what you speak. Really, you can't teach someone to "aim" in baseball. I did it every day as a HS baseball coach....

Example, point the left shoulder toward first base, eyes on his glove, elbow up, hand back, and come over the top with a downward and even release puts the ball in the right path, now it is only a matter of the ball going in high or low, but it is going to first base....and then one can adjust the release point to get the proper aim into the glove.... this is a little simplified, but it gets the job done.... but they are aiming.... and may aim the rest of their lives, and the good ones it just become automatic....
Click to expand...

I believe what you are describing would be classified as mechanics.
 
I been guilty of letting myself over think my shots.
My dad used to get a kick out of taking me to the trap range on saturday when I was 13/14 and watch me get into a shootout with registered shooters 4x my age.

If you don't believe in instinctive shooting just goggle it.
Searches related to instinctive shooting

instinctive shooting archery
instinctive pistol shooting
instinctive shotgun shooting
fred asbell instinctive shooting
instinctive shooting compound bow
instinctive shooting international
point shooting
instinctive shooting international wiki

Instinctive shooting isn't magic its simply letting your mind process all the information your conscious mind already knows in one fluid motion. The weight and feel of the cue how much force it will take to move a ball a certain distance. The effect of spin and rails ect ect.

Haven't any of you second guessed your first instinct about a shot then missed it?
I have, and it amounts to questioning or second guessing your first impression about a shot......instinct.

Heres an good description of over thinking a shoot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1y-e4Sw0t0
 
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I think the issue is a little more complicated than has been stated. Brain / mind / body interactions are complicated processes. Animals learn to refine their skills with out verbalization through trial and error. Visual examples or modeling help the brain exercise control more quickly. This is evident in the psychology of learning with animals. When shown how to do something animals improve faster.

One function of language is to assist us with self control. “If I hit a little past center next time I will pocket that ball.” Verbalizing helps us remember and provide direction for what to do. It is a shortcut that helps us remember what to do next time. It is the “how to.”

For some people such things as fractional ball aiming, BHE and similar systems are mnemonic devices that assist with the “how to” aspect of the game.

The execution of the shot is under brain / behavior processes, not the mental / verbal process. A person cannot describe the calculus that is used to touch their nose with their finger because the mechanics required far exceed our ability to use words. The muscular control required to execute a pool shot cannot be described very well. It requires brain body learning that cannot be adequately described. None-the-less, verbalizations can assist the brain in its calculations.

Aiming methods help one organize the approach to aiming. The actual aiming is learned by trial and error and that is where practice comes in. I agree that many pros cannot tell you how they aim as indicated in the old Billiards Digest magazine article. Once learned it is an automatic process outside of verbalization. However, verbalizations, systems, whatever, can be used to help some people get there faster.

To some extent I think that systems are more or less useful depending upon where you begin. If you have little natural skill most any system is useful. As your skills improve better systems are needed to advance learning. In the end all systems are by-passed for direct brain behavior control.

I think that people can be taught how to approach aiming in various ways. Aiming itself is a skill that is refined over time.

Oh, I am a psychologist

A better question for the pros might be, "What did you use to learn to aim?"
 
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AimWithYourMind said:
When we aim in any sport, or any activity in life, it is system 1 that does the aiming.

If you don't know, system 1 is the intuitive portion of our brain. System 2 is the slower, computing, rational portion of our brain.

When we throw a football, we do not need to calculate how far away the receiver is. We do not need to compute the altitude that we must throw the ball at. This is all compute automatically by system 1. It is our intuition.

Trying to "block out" system 1 activities is extremely difficult. Why do you think people say it is difficult to miss a shot on purpose? System 1 is trying to pocket the ball which is automatic. System 2 is fighting against it when you are trying to miss on purpose.

Golfers do not have an aiming formula. Quarterbacks do not. Bowlers do not. Archers do not. Marksmen do not. Kids on the playground do not. Baseball pitchers do not. Baseball hitters do not. Basketball players do not.

Skill in accuracy can be gained from repeated trials, where feedback is received as to your success or failure. If feedback was hidden (if you were prevented from seeing if you pocketed the ball) you would not see improvement.

Your skill cannot be improved by instituting an aiming system. The only way to imrove is to train system 1 through repeated trials. System 1 learns slowly. System 2 learns quickly. System 2 can learn a formula instantly and begin using it in computations. System 1 learns slowly. It requires constant feedback and many trials in order to see a change.

You cannot institute an aiming system for a pitcher and make him all of a sudden throw strikes. But you can subject the pitcher to thousands of trials where he received instant feedback (ball or strike) and he will see improved accuracy.

There is more but the discussion will last weeks.

What is important is the mechanics. The mechanics of a pool stroke are not operated by System 1. It is not natural for you to execute a pool stroke. That is where instruction is beneficial.

The only important concept is to deliver the cue in a straight line at the point you intended to hit.

I repeat, I repeat, you cannot be taught how to aim. You can only improve your aim through repeated trials.

Your mechanics are important. Yes, the position of your head is important.

But you cannot be taught how to aim.

I am deeply concerned over all the threads with so much misinformation. It makes me very sick.

It takes a basic knowledge of psychology to understand system 1 and 2 decision making. I'm just done with it.

(I apologize for the missing letters, my keyboard is not in good condition)
Click to expand...

There is a lot of trial and error in aiming but if you are trying to compare hitting a ball or throwing a ball to pocketing balls and playing shape for the the next ball to that.There is no comparison my friend because I've done both in my life and the physics of billiards are nothing like throwing a ball or hitting one.NOTHING..;)
 
Over simplified I think. Executing should be intuitive, that's for sure, only after building a knowledge base for your brain, practice which builds confidence in your mind, muscle memory to physically execute what you learned.

Reminds me of reading the inner game of tennis.

Tell ya what, I've been playing for a little over 50 yrs. I play OK, but ... I still have to consciously aim the first few shots when I play (which is about once a week) until I settle in and get the old stroke oiled. :embarrassed2: So I think that while what you say has merit, again, it's only a part of the puzzle.
 
I'm of the mindset that there is no aiming in making a shot. You are just fooling yourself in thinking that there is such a thing.

Why, because there is no target to aim at such as a bulls eye on a piece of paper. I've never seen a contact point on any ball. I can try to imagine such, but that is not the same thing as having a real target to aim at.

When you have to send the CB rail first, there is nothing to aim at. There is no real aim point on the rail to use. You can use one of the number of rail systems, but in the end, there is no aim point on the rail. You still have to imagine it.

The CB does have something to give you a sense of direction of the CB, the top of it. The top is on the same axis of the CB as the center and bottom of the cue ball. When rolled, the top becomes the bottom and so on.

But you are still on you own to pick a spot on the table to send the CB. There is not spot marked "Hit here". Once that spot is picked, just roll the top of the CB over that spot or toward that spot in the rail and the OB will go where you want.

Aiming really becomes intuitive when you can not hit the OB directly, like having to send a CB 2 rails to hit a OB. Or a three ball combo, or a combo carom and so on. The world of shot making in pool goes beyond cuts shots which seem to be the only application for some systems.

Shot making is a very dynamic action. No two shots are the same. You can rehearse the same piece of music for a concert, but there is no way to rehearse for a match. You have no idea what shots can and will show up in a match.

This is where table time comes in. The more of a data base of muscle memory you have, the better the outcome you will have with those never seen before shots. No system can give you this.

HAMB is not a system. HAMB is training using whatever ways, methods, systems and so on that you want. One must train properly for true increase in performance.

HAMB is not for everyone. It requires a person to be dedicated to pool. It is not for those who think pool is a past time, a hobby, a social event, or even money games.

HAMB develops feel for playing which is different than feeling a shot. Pool is not just one ball going into a pocket. There is a flow, a energy in a game of pool. It is a battle of wills at times. HAMB gives you a data base to draw from in knowing what to do when. This is what wins, not a system.
 
duckie said:
I'm of the mindset that there is no aiming in making a shot. You are just fooling yourself in thinking that there is such a thing.

Why, because there is no target to aim at such as a bulls eye on a piece of paper. I've never seen a contact point on any ball. I can try to imagine such, but that is not the same thing as having a real target to aim at.

When you have to send the CB rail first, there is nothing to aim at. There is no real aim point on the rail to use. You can use one of the number of rail systems, but in the end, there is no aim point on the rail. You still have to imagine it.

The CB does have something to give you a sense of direction of the CB, the top of it. The top is on the same axis of the CB as the center and bottom of the cue ball. When rolled, the top becomes the bottom and so on.

But you are still on you own to pick a spot on the table to send the CB. There is not spot marked "Hit here". Once that spot is picked, just roll the top of the CB over that spot or toward that spot in the rail and the OB will go where you want.

Aiming really becomes intuitive when you can not hit the OB directly, like having to send a CB 2 rails to hit a OB. Or a three ball combo, or a combo carom and so on. The world of shot making in pool goes beyond cuts shots which seem to be the only application for some systems.

Shot making is a very dynamic action. No two shots are the same. You can rehearse the same piece of music for a concert, but there is no way to rehearse for a match. You have no idea what shots can and will show up in a match.

This is where table time comes in. The more of a data base of muscle memory you have, the better the outcome you will have with those never seen before shots. No system can give you this.

HAMB is not a system. HAMB is training using whatever ways, methods, systems and so on that you want. One must train properly for true increase in performance.

HAMB is not for everyone. It requires a person to be dedicated to pool. It is not for those who think pool is a past time, a hobby, a social event, or even money games.

HAMB develops feel for playing which is different than feeling a shot. Pool is not just one ball going into a pocket. There is a flow, a energy in a game of pool. It is a battle of wills at times. HAMB gives you a data base to draw from in knowing what to do when. This is what wins, not a system.
Click to expand...

HAMB gives you data for a database only IF you go about it systematically.

Of course there is AIMING in pool. How dense can you possibly be?

When you draw out your diagrams and tell us you use GB in the way you do then you are AIMING at a target. You are doing something systematically to align your body.

You train for matches by building skills and learning how the balls react. You practice situations and figure out how to solve them. If the PROBLEM is making shots then you figure out whatever method works for you to aim and get to the shot line. Then you work on your mechanics.

I have to say that if there is an award for the densest person on AZ I will nominate you for it. You are a low handicap player who doesn't know how to run out and yet you speak as if you are an accomplished instructor.

As for your comment that "aiming becomes intuitive when you have to send the cue ball two rails...." Why don't you spend your time studying the available systems out there on kicking? There are many systems that are deadly accurate for kicking that are not intuitive. The rely on precise calculation to find the starting rail and angle. Tom Rossmann teaches people these systems in minutes and has them kicking accurately in less than ten minutes.

I think "PoolShark" Allen and you are probably tied, you're probably cojoined twins when it comes to the comments you both make which are completely ignorant and lacking in substance.
 
JB Cases said:
I have to say that if there is an award for the densest person on AZ I will nominate you for it. You are a low handicap player who doesn't know how to run out and yet you speak as if you are an accomplished instructor.
Click to expand...
I'd actually like to nominate you for the densest person on the AZB. Since you've been arguing with anyone and everyone over aiming systems for the past 14 years, carpet bombing the forum with your spam, you've fully earned your dunce cap. :rolleyes:
 
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