Kamui tps 2.10 a piece increase??

I will jump in here with one comment. MAP (Minimum Advertised Price) means everyone within the system advertises no lower than one particular price. This seems great on the surface as it keeps the market retail price set. But when a company wants you to use their MAP and they have distributors that are not only distributors, but also dealers and retailers the fairness is not there. Is it fair for you to purchase at dealer price and then be told to only list retail price and have them call you to check quantity price? If you said yes, think about this. The same distributor will sell in low quantities for about the dealer price. So if they have to call to check pricing then the distributor has set themselves up with a huge advantage. So the system is not fair. If distributors sold in minimum quantities of say 100 tips then the dealers could sell in bunches of 5 or 10 tips for less than retail and still compete fairly. When distributors stick to solely being distributors then there may become some fairness in it all. But until then I don't want to hear about any MAP pricing.
 
This I agree with but, as someone else stated, there are much larger companies with MAP policies. Apple is one and probably the most ruthless. If it were illegal, wouldn't Apple be nailed to a cross? If Company A shuts me off after a history of buying, isn't that their "right to refuse?" There may be a difference between a publically traded company and a private company.

Gas companies price fixing would be collusion, which is illegal.

<~~I am high maitenance. :embarrassed2:


The fact that Predator, Instroke and Aramith all have MAP isn't colusion? Why would it be colusion if Shell had a MAP policy and then all the rest followed suit just like in billiards. There is no colusion.

Apple is a great company but that doesn't mean it's right. Who can challenge Apple? Apple would bury any company, right or wrong, in any law suit. And, any company big enough to challenge Apple is benefiting from MAP because MAP protects the manufacturer and the larger companies selling their products who can't compete with the smaller companies selling at lower prices with a lot less overhead. Mom & Pop can't affor a law suit against Apple. Apple can shut them down and they will so in order to market their product, mom & pop go along with MAP.

MAP protects companies like Meullers who have higher prices and a lot more overhead. But these companies market to the masses and have huge advertising campaigns so I guess they're entitled to their higher pricing but in no way should they be bound to MAP nor should they complain when someone doesn't adhere to MAP.

We can continue this all day long. The bottomline is I feel MAP is anti competitive, unAmerican, restraint of trade and a host of other things as it restrains me from selling my products at prices which I feel are reasonable and fair. After I invest my money in a product, I am free to give it away, sell it at a 10% profit or a 100% profit and no one is entitled to tell me how, where and when to sell the product(s) I own. That's free enterprise and once you tell me that I have to abide by MAP, that is no longer FREE enterprise.
 
I will jump in here with one comment. MAP (Minimum Advertised Price) means everyone within the system advertises no lower than one particular price. This seems great on the surface as it keeps the market retail price set. But when a company wants you to use their MAP and they have distributors that are not only distributors, but also dealers and retailers the fairness is not there. Is it fair for you to purchase at dealer price and then be told to only list retail price and have them call you to check quantity price? If you said yes, think about this. The same distributor will sell in low quantities for about the dealer price. So if they have to call to check pricing then the distributor has set themselves up with a huge advantage. So the system is not fair. If distributors sold in minimum quantities of say 100 tips then the dealers could sell in bunches of 5 or 10 tips for less than retail and still compete fairly. When distributors stick to solely being distributors then there may become some fairness in it all. But until then I don't want to hear about any MAP pricing.


Distributors should distribute and not partake in the retail marketplace. You are absolutely correct that any distributor who is also selling retail is creating an unfair marketplace and should never be supported as they are your competitor. You're actually supporting a competitor by purchasing that particular product. That's insanity!

To purchase from Tiger you have to purchase a certain amount per year. You are either a distributor or a dealer. There are dealer prices and distributor pricing and there is no mixing the two. He has a tiered pricing structure and he adheres to it 100%. Tiger sells at full retail on their web site which is perfectly fine. Tiger is not accepting anymore distributors as they have reached a point where their current distributors are doing the job. That's how you run a business!

The way some people run a business is truly a Walt Disney Production; Mickey Mouse!
 
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I will jump in here with one comment. MAP (Minimum Advertised Price) means everyone within the system advertises no lower than one particular price. This seems great on the surface as it keeps the market retail price set. But when a company wants you to use their MAP and they have distributors that are not only distributors, but also dealers and retailers the fairness is not there. Is it fair for you to purchase at dealer price and then be told to only list retail price and have them call you to check quantity price? If you said yes, think about this. The same distributor will sell in low quantities for about the dealer price. So if they have to call to check pricing then the distributor has set themselves up with a huge advantage. So the system is not fair. If distributors sold in minimum quantities of say 100 tips then the dealers could sell in bunches of 5 or 10 tips for less than retail and still compete fairly. When distributors stick to solely being distributors then there may become some fairness in it all. But until then I don't want to hear about any MAP pricing.

Bose keeps it simple.
You agree to their prices.
When I sold Bose, we couldn't discount them a dollar.
Some people whined about it being illegal.
Really? If Bose went to JBL and they both agree they'd price their 3-piece speaker system at $750 and all dealers will sell for that price, I guess that would be collusion . But, Bose in wanting to maintain the prestige of their name, made sure their speakers sold for the price they set , and if some retailer discounted it, they would recall their stock. Bose was never sued once afaik.
Same thing with Apple. Surely, if Apple was doing something illegal, the govt. would be going after them. If they did, Apple would have an easy out. So, Walmart wants to sell Apple for $100 less and drive their competition out of business ? Great idea. After all Apple dealers are out of business, they can then raise the price. Wait, wasn't that why consumer protection got started ?
Big stores selling basic commodity below cost until all competitors go out of business then they'd gouge the consumers as soon as the other other stores are gone.
Then again, Kamui tips are not basic commodity. They're not even made here.
Heaven forbid if the owner stayed loyal to his distributor who built it up in the US. Maybe that's too Japanese.
 
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JB (Bertone) sent me a PM gloating that Atlas won't sell me a Kamui tip.

I asked him if Atlas were willing to lose a 1K sale over a few tips.

Who cares, maybe they will maybe not. After it was posted, I had numerous
PMs, offering me tips for well below the Canadian dealers prices.

I appreciated it but didn't take anyone up on it. I didn't want Kamui products, period.

At the time I could buy Mooris from CC for $9 and believe me, I can push Moori or Black King tips as well as Kamui any day of the week.

I won't lose $5 on an install and I definitely won't hoop my customers with a 50 or 60 install either.

This was a slow league season for me but I did ok selling Mooris, Kings, Duds and a few others. Kamuis won't make me or break me.

BTW, when Joe (CC) says that his handle wood is nice enuff to use without a wrap, he wasn't lying.
 
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JB sent me a PM gloating that Atlas won't sell me a Kamui tip.

I asked him if Atlas were willing to lose a 1K sale over a few tips.

Who cares, maybe they will maybe not. After it was posted, I had numerous
PMs, offering me tips for well below the Canadian dealers prices.

I appreciated it but didn't take anyone up on it. I didn't want Kamui products, period.

At the time I could buy Mooris from CC for $9 and believe me, I can push Moori or Black King tips as well as Kamui any day of the week.

I won't lose $5 on an install and I definitely won't hoop my customers with a 50 or 60 install either.

This was a slow league season for me but I did ok selling Mooris, Kings, Duds and a few others. Kamuis won't make me or break me.

BTW, when John says that his handle wood is nice enuff to use without a wrap, he wasn't lying.

Joe had some good points and it was interesting to read. Joey made a good argument as well. It would be nice if the MAP was to level the playing field for the dealers but that doesn't seem to be the case.

I feel like you, I could care less if I ever sell a Kamui. I think $15 for a tip is too steep. I have 15 of them but only because I got them as part of a package deal along with a couple hundred other tips. I have a couple friends that tried Kamui (one is a dealer) and they said they didn't think they were any better than the Moori's. I haven't tried them yet. Personally I like the Snipers. Hold chalk well, keep their shape, good English and control and I don't have to mess them very often.

It would be nice if everyone boycotted Kamui to get them down to a "reasonable" price but I can't see that happening. So I go along with you and Joe and just won't be buying Kamui.

Oh, if you haven't tried them yet grab a couple of the Madman tips from Juan. I love the break tips he sent me. I even played a few full games with them and not one miscue which I found surprising given how hard they are. Haven't tried the playing tips yet but if they are as good as the break tips I am sure I'll like them. I have to install one before tomorrow night so we'll see.
 
I did get some Mad Man break tips from Chris.
I installed 2 and the people are most happy with them.
I recently bought a Thor Hammer real cheap. The tip is close to needing replacement and I will try a MM on it.

There are too many alternatives in great playing tips out there to start drinking the Kamui Kool Aide.

Most players here don't even know what a Kamui tip is.
Amazing that the Black K tips are being well received.

There is a limit that I will pay for certain tips and charge for installs.
When the price prohibits me from from that, I find a good alternative.

I probably mentioned it before but I have a guarantee on my installs.
If I recommend a certain tip and the customer isn't happy, I refund the money in form of another tip of the customers choice.

I haven't had one customer take me up on it so I must be choosing the correct tips for them.

When I run out of Mooris, I will pay CC's price for them because I like dealing with Joe. Beyond that, I won't ever go out of my way to buy a Kamui product.

Most of my bulk tips have come from CC. Good price that I can't find matched anywhere else.
 
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I feel about the same. I don't do a lot of repairs anyway. I only do it for friends because its kind of a pain tearing down what I have setup. The tips I did do they just said the hardness they wanted and left it up to me to pick the tip. So for me its been rather easy to steer them towards tips I like.... and away from the ones I don't. Sooner or later I'll put one of those Kamui I have on a shaft but I can't imagine I'll like it so much I'd be willing to pay almost double the cost of a Sniper.

Although, I could always change my mind about doing repairs seeing as I have another lathe coming tomorrow :)

I like talking to Joe as well, he's rather amusing. I had 2 orders that got a little messed up but he made it right quickly. Can't ask for much more than that. I like his prices on Tips and Shaft wood as well. The only ones I didn't care for were the "Joe's Gold" he made to Lucky's specs. All the other dowels and partials were at least as nice as he advertised. Some of the cored forearms I got were really nice as well, that Thuya Burl I got last year is incredible. I've yet to see a piece of TB that nice anywhere.

I just put a Med-Hard Madman on a shaft for a buddy's break stick (he said he might also want to play with it and wanted MH). Seems a little on the soft side but I'll find out tomorrow night. If its too soft I'll put on a MM break tip. I actually think he'll like that better.
 
I come from the day of the Mom and Pop stores, gas stations etc. I think the smaller guy money wise deserves a break in todays market.

I like a lot of what I see today but know your older hall of famers could run out with the end of a golf club and cloth tip if they had to.

You will always have those that "it aint right unless you got Calvin Klien sewn on the behind."
 
Randy....

MAP is illegal and no one would win that argument in court. Find me case law where a company actually won a law suit on MAP. So you're saying it wouldn't bother you if Sunoco, BP and Shell all had MAP policy and advertised all their gas at $3.50 per gallon.

As far as your other statements: if you did away with MAP, it would cause a lot of dealers to go out of business as only the strong would survive.

Example: If I sell a tip and only sell 100 a year I would need to make 50% to 100% profit. If I sell 10,000 tips a year at a profit of only 10% or 20% you're talking a lot of money. If you gross 100k a year at 100% markup, you made $50k. If I gross 1 or 2 million annually at 10 to 20% markup it's a heck of a lot of money. And by pricing at lower margins it drives the weaker players out of the market. You see, MAP policy stifles free enterprise. It puts too many hurdles in place that don't need to be there. MAP protects the manufacturers only. We don't need MAP; period.

http://www.ftc.gov/bc/antitrust/manufacturer_requirements.shtm

"If a manufacturer, on its own, adopts a policy regarding a desired level of prices, the law allows the manufacturer to deal only with retailers who agree to that policy. A manufacturer also may stop dealing with a retailer that does not follow its resale price policy. That is, a manufacturer can implement a dealer policy on a "take it or leave it" basis."

Unless I am reading this wrong it seems the Federal Trade Commission disagrees with you.
 
I'm nobody's SHILL Justin and I didn't ask for Joe's input or inform him about this post. This is about ME and MY frustration with trying to keep things affordable(and still make a little money). I'd like to buy a couple hundred tips and pass the savings along to my customers, but I can't. Really, besides some shipping cost that is saved, why should I stock 200(well I HAVE over 200, just not 200 14.00 tips) tips?

AGAIN, this had nothing to do with Joe. The only reason he, and he wasn't even named, was brought up was because of his good prices on Moori. Obviously, someone told him.

It would be nice to keep to the facts here and not make it personal.

I like you Justin, but call me a shill again and I will gnaw your knee caps off:wink:

I'm not a fan of Mr. Barringers conduct with regards to this forum and some friends of mine in general. If I caught you up in that I apologize as it was not my intent.
 
http://www.ftc.gov/bc/antitrust/manufacturer_requirements.shtm

"If a manufacturer, on its own, adopts a policy regarding a desired level of prices, the law allows the manufacturer to deal only with retailers who agree to that policy. A manufacturer also may stop dealing with a retailer that does not follow its resale price policy. That is, a manufacturer can implement a dealer policy on a "take it or leave it" basis."

Unless I am reading this wrong it seems the Federal Trade Commission disagrees with you.


Bob….
Well, thank you very much for this and your research but I must strongly disagree with you as you must read the entire article. I read this article years ago and formulated a totally different position.

We do not carry any manufacturer’s products. About 12 years ago we were thinking about handling Predator products until we found out that we had to maintain a certain price structure or Predator would cut us off. So, I could choose to play their game, buck it or do without. I chose to do without and since then we would never handle any product that imposes MAP policies. With my way of thinking and taking things personal and believing in 'right', I would be working to support lawyers to fight the MAP policy. I chose to not fight that battle as there are too many other avenues in Billiards to make money without the hassle of dealing with BIG BROTHER breathing over my shoulders and imposing MAP. MAP is illegal; period. It stifles free competition and makes the merchants jump through hurdles to do business. Retailers can sell below MAP but on sort of an underground approach. This is wrong.

Several years ago a Predator dealer sent us an email that Predator sent out to all their distributors stating that MAP is legal and enforcable so you better go along or face the consequences. That was the general nature of the email. I couldn't believe what I was reading. And so I wrote the following article which addresses your FTC findings and blows it to shreds. If you have the head to read it, you'll see my point as it relates to your FTC findings and an actual example of a merchant trying to impose MAP.

____________________________
This is one mans opinion….

I encourage each and every one of you to take the time to actually sit there and digest exactly what I am saying here as the ramifications are tremendous to our industry and sport.

It’s not often that I will sit down and take pen to paper in this magnitude but I am in such an uproar over recent events that I feel obligated to say something. Has the USA and its peoples degenerated to such an extent that we now put profits over morality and right? I’d like to think not but the silence is deafening. I cannot believe that merchants within the billiard industry have not spoken up about such manipulation and price fixing. I am equally surprised that the billiard publications (Billiards Digest, Inside Pool) have not picked up on this most very serious story about price manipulation which affects each and every consumer out there today. However, it’s not surprising that the billiard publications don’t report on such stories since Predator is a major advertiser in their publications.

So, now you ask just what is it that I am talking about? Well picture this my friends…. What do you think if I were to tell you that Chevron, BP, Shell or any other gasoline supplier sent out memo’s to their retailers that they could not sell a gallon of gas below $5 a gallon regardless of the wholesale price discount. How would you feel about that?

Better yet, what if I were to tell you that GM told it’s new car showrooms that the most they could discount a vehicle to the consumer would be 20% otherwise they’d pull their license or stop shipping cars to that showroom. How would you feel about that?

What would you say? I would venture to say that you’d be upset to say the least. Rest assured there would be incredible public outcry and as sure as the sun would come up tomorrow, the Attorney General would certainly become involved.

However, in the small niche market of billiards, just such events are taking place right at this very moment. The culprits are Predator Products, the manufacturers of those Chinese made, glued-up shafts and production cues.

Here’s my take on the situation in reviewing Predator’s attorney’s letter and his 51 page (yes I digested 51 pages of legal mumbo jumbo) report citing case law supporting (or trying to) ‘price-fixing’. This attorney’s report, lulled Predator into the false sense of security of believing that they can manipulate the market and force their distributors into submission. The title of the letter was: “Predator: Price Restraints on Retailers in Light of Recent Court Precedent”. Their own attorney admits that they are promoting "Price Restraints".

I would venture to say that in Predator’s quest to manipulate and control the market they retained big gun attorneys to produce a report supporting their, what I like to term, an illegal stance and price fixing strategy. I’m sure Predator paid dearly for this report. In all fairness, I’m certain that if I were to pay an attorney, I could produce a report in my defense which would support my stance that Price Fixing, such as Predator is trying to sell to its distributors, is illegal. You get whatever you pay for and this report that Predator obviously paid for is the end result. Predator wanted price fixing strategy and their paid lawyers (otherwise known as hired guns) provided the scant proof.

The keyword(s) here is the admission of the attorney to call the report and its manipulation of the market – “Price Restraints”. The attorney is correct in calling it that as it is “Price Restraints” which Predator is trying to sell to their distributors. Predator is trying to sell ‘price fixing’ as ‘resale price maintenance’ which is nothing more than a play on words.

I have spoken with several of Predator’s large distributors who have admitted to me that they are going to go along with Predator for fear of being “cut-off” by Predator. I guess when a large portion of your business depends on Predator Products, then the manufacturer can force you into doing whatever it is that they want you to do. What happened to right –vs- profits? What happened to protecting the rights of consumers and keeping with American tradition of a free enterprise system? This is what happens when companies put profits over morality. This is why American business is degenerating. This is why and how the MBA (‘Me Before Anyone’) generation is trying to run business today.

Predator is relying upon the 51 page document to put into force their new price fixing policy where distributors cannot discount more than 20% from MSRP. Additionally, Predator is also telling distributors that they cannot give away any free merchandise when selling Predator products as well so as to appear as a value added promotion. In doing so, Predator is manipulating the market, destroying competition, controlling and monopolizing the marketplace.

Predator is relying upon “the rule of reason” which distinguishes between restraints and anticompetitive effects that are harmful to the consumer -vs- procompetitive effects that are in the consumers best interest.

So, there you have it. You have two statements of law:
1) restraints and anticompetitive effects that are harmful to the consumer (actual Predator tactics)
2) procompetitive effects that are in the consumers best interest (Predator defense strategy)

Predator is relying upon procompetitive law to support their price fixing strategy. Now, let us take a few moments to shoot holes into this nonsensical law.

I would be quite amused to see Predators defense as how they are promoting procompetitive effects that are in the consumers best interest when they are price fixing whereby causing increased pricing for the consumer and where dealers are forbidden to do any ‘value added’ promotions featuring Predator Products. How can these tactics be in the ‘best interest’ of the consumer?! Furthermore, how can threatening their distributors by cutting them off be procompetitive?

Case law specifically states that the law is replete with procompetitive justifications. However, a few recent studies on this subject also cast doubt on the conclusion that the practice meets the criteria for the procompetitive rule. More simply put, Predator's stance on their procompetitive marketing strategy will NOT hold up in a court of law and can easily be challenged.

Antitrust laws primary purpose is to protect interbrand competition and 'price fixing' is trying to eliminate intrabrand price competition and aids in the manufacturers position against competing brands.

And, setting minimum resale prices may also have anticompetitive effects, and unlawful price fixing is designed to obtain monopoly profits. This is, in my opinion, exactly what Predator is trying to do. Predator is trying to monopolize the market and monopolize profits by using strong arm tactics and threatening its distributors that they either play along or be cut-off – hardly a procompetitive defense as Predator is alleging.

Retail price fixing can facilitate Predator to organize retail cartels. It can also be abused by a powerful manufacturer such as Predator. Thus, the potential anticompetitive consequences must not be ignored or underestimated.

Notwithstanding the risks of unlawful conduct, it cannot be stated with any degree of confidence that retail price fixing, always or almost always tends to restrict competition and decrease output. Argument overlooks that, in general, the interests of manufacturers and consumers are aligned with respect to retailer profit margins. That’s serious and consumers interests should never be aligned with retailer profits.

In one such case, a manufacturer who sold its products to distributors (much like Predator does), and whose distributors who agreed to resell them at set prices, the court found that the manufacturer’s control of resale prices to be unlawful. Please read that again.

In all fairness to Predator, each side of the debate can find sources to support its position, it suffices to say here that economic literature is replete with procompetitive justifications for a manufacturer's use of resale price maintenance otherwise known as ‘price fixing’ or as Predator’s own attorney put it, “Price Restraints on Retailers”.

A single manufacturer's use of price restraints tends to eliminate intrabrand price competition; this in turn encourages retailers to invest in tangible or intangible services or promotional efforts that aid the manufacturer's position as against rival manufacturers. Resale price maintenance also has the potential to give consumers more options so that they can choose among low-price, low-service brands; high-price, high-service brands; and brands that fall in between. Consumers might learn, for example, about the benefits of a manufacturer's product from a retailer that invests in fine showrooms, offers product demonstrations, or hires and trains knowledgeable employees.

While the above paragraph may hold true for manufacturers such as Louie Vuitton and Calvin Klein, it does not hold true for Predator Products. I don’t know of a single “showroom” in billiards who invests in chandeliers and elegantly carpeted “showrooms” to sell their Predator products to upscale clients who are more interested in service than price. I would venture to say that the vast majority of billiard enthusiasts are more price conscience than anything else. Therefore, Predator relying upon this as defense for price fixing is not in line with one argument of procompetitive law.

CONTINUED…..
 
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Continued....

While price agreements setting minimum resale prices can have procompetitive justifications, they may have anticompetitive effects in other cases and unlawful price fixing, designed solely to obtain monopoly profits, is an ever present temptation and is the case here with Predator as is this writers opinion.

On the other side of the coin which is really not the case here, retail price maintenance, furthermore, can be abused by a powerful manufacturer. A dominant retailer, for example, might request retail price maintenance to forestall innovation in distribution that decreases costs. A manufacturer might consider it has little choice but to accommodate the retailer's demands for price restraints if the manufacturer believes it needs access to the retailer's distribution network. This is all not good for consumers no matter how you slice it up. Predator loses this argument as well.

A manufacturer with market power such as Predator, might use resale price fixing to give retailers an incentive not to sell the products of smaller rivals or new entrants. As should be evident, the potential anticompetitive consequences of price restraints must not be ignored or underestimated. If Predator is allowed to get away with its recent pricing manipulation, where will it end? Will Predator next require its distributors to cease selling certain other products in order to maintain their Predator distributorship? If Predator is allowed to price-fix, there is no end in sight as to where Predator and others may go with this. Hardly procompetitive.

Price fixing agreements establishing minimum resale prices can have either procompetitive or anticompetitive effects, depending upon the circumstances in which they are formed. And support of Predator’s anticompetitive policy, would be, in my opinion quite easy to display.

As a final matter, that a dominant manufacturer or retailer can abuse retail price maintenance for anticompetitive purposes may not be a serious concern unless the relevant entity has market power. Does one wonder whether or not if Predator has “market power”? Once again, hardly procompetitive.

As discussed earlier, respected authorities in the economics literature suggest the per se rule is inappropriate, and there is now widespread agreement that retail price maintenance can have procompetitive effects.

It is also significant to point out that both the Department of Justice and the Federal Trade Commission-the antitrust enforcement agencies with the ability to assess the long-term impacts of retail price maintenance-have recommended that the Court replace the per se rule with the traditional rule of reason. Once again, the rule of reason: The rule distinguishes between restraints with anticompetitive effect that are harmful to the consumer and those with procompetitive effect that are in the consumer's best interest.

Resale price maintenance was legal under fair trade laws in a majority of States for a large part of the past century up until 1975. It is also of note that during this time when the legal environment in the United States was most favorable for resale price maintenance, no more than a tiny fraction of manufacturers ever employed resale price maintenance contracts. No more than one percent of manufacturers, accounting for no more than ten percent of consumer goods purchases, ever employed resale price maintenance in any single year in the United States; the fraction of U.S. retail sales covered by resale price maintenance in its heyday has been variously estimated at from 4 to 10 percent.

Bottomline….. The Sherman Act seeks to maintain a marketplace free of anticompetitive practices, in particular those enforced by agreement among private firms (such as Predator is trying to perpetrate). The law assumes that such a marketplace, free of private restrictions, will tend to bring about the lower prices, better products, and more efficient production processes that consumers typically desire. In determining the lawfulness of particular practices, courts often apply a “rule of reason.” They examine both a practice's likely anticompetitive effects and its beneficial business justifications.

Nonetheless, sometimes the likely anticompetitive consequences of a particular practice are so serious and the potential justifications so few (or, e.g., so difficult to prove) that courts have departed from a pure “rule of reason” approach. And sometimes the Court has imposed a rule of per se unlawfulness - a rule that instructs courts to find the practice unlawful all (or nearly all) the time. It’s certainly an uphill climb for Predator but Predator would have you believe otherwise.

On the one hand, agreements setting minimum resale prices may have serious anticompetitive consequences. In respect to dealers: Resale price maintenance agreements, rather like horizontal price agreements, can diminish or eliminate price competition among dealers of a single brand or (if practiced generally by manufacturers) among multibrand dealers. In doing so, they can prevent dealers from offering customers the lower prices that many customers prefer…

Resale price maintenance agreements can help to reinforce the competition-inhibiting behavior of firms in concentrated industries. In such industries firms may tacitly collude, i.e., observe each other's pricing behavior, each understanding that price cutting by one firm is likely to trigger price competition by all. Where that is so, resale price maintenance can make it easier for each producer to identify (by observing retail markets) when a competitor has begun to cut prices. And a producer who cuts wholesale prices without lowering the minimum resale price will stand to gain little, if anything, in increased profits, because the dealer will be unable to stimulate increased consumer demand by passing along the producer's price cut to consumers. In either case, resale price maintenance agreements will tend to prevent price competition from “breaking out” and they will thereby tend to stabilize producer prices. One surely has to wonder if Viking, Pechauer, McDermott and Predator are all towing the same line here to support their own product lines, do away with competition and charge higher prices to the consumer. Does anyone out there believe these tactics to be procompetitive?

Predator’s own attorney writes, “More subtle indication of anticompetitive behavior is retailers colluding to fix prices and collectively mandating the manufacture requires other retailers to follow suit. Such pull from the retailer side would be anticompetitive, as it would give inefficient retailers higher profits. Additionally, a manufacturer must not use price restraints to discourage retailers from selling rival products. If a manufacturer has a large market share and sets price restraints, or a large portion of manufacturers in an industry set price restraints, a court will look closely at the restraint to determine its legality”. Since Predator, Brunswick, McDermott, Pechauer and Viking are all practicing ‘price fixing’ tactics (which accounts for “a large portion of manufacturers”) , one has to wonder if collusion or cooperation are factors in this case. One also has to wonder if retailers or distributors have contacted Predator to complain about some merchants selling products at lower prices whereby Predator instituted this new price fixing policy to satisfy the needs of some of its retailers against lower price retailers. We’ve all heard of retailers complaining about retailer “X” who is selling product for less than retailer “Y”. If so, this would be anticompetitive.

CONTINUED......
 
CONTINUED.....

Those who express concern about the potential anticompetitive effects find empirical support in the behavior of prices before, and then after, Congress in 1975 repealed the Miller-Tydings Fair Trade Act. Those Acts had permitted (but not required) individual States to enact “fair trade” laws authorizing minimum resale price maintenance. At the time of repeal minimum resale price maintenance was lawful in 36 States; it was unlawful in 14 States before the Subcommittee on Antitrust and Monopoly of the Senate. Comparing prices in the former States with prices in the latter States, the Department of Justice argued that minimum resale price maintenance had raised prices by 19% to 27%. This was great for manufacturers but not for consumers!

The Federal Trade Commission (FTC) staff, after studying numerous price surveys, wrote that collectively the surveys “indicated that resale price maintenance in most cases increased the prices of products sold.”

Most economists today agree that, in the words of a prominent antitrust treatise, “resale price maintenance tends to produce higher consumer prices than would otherwise be the case."

It is uniformly acknowledged that resale price maintenance and other vertical restraints lead to higher consumer prices.


Economic discussion, such as the studies the Court relies upon, can help provide answers to these questions, and in doing so, economics can, and should, inform antitrust law. But antitrust law cannot, and should not, precisely replicate economists' (sometimes conflicting) views. That is because law, unlike economics, is an administrative system the effects of which depend upon the content of rules and precedents only as they are applied by judges and juries in courts and by lawyers advising their clients. And, that fact means that courts will often bring their own administrative judgment to bear, sometimes applying rules of per se unlawfulness to business practices even when those practices sometimes produce benefits.

Those who wish courts to change so well-established a legal precedent bear a heavy burden of proof. In-other-words --- good luck Predator.

A brief for Consumer Federation of America comments by Wal-Mart's founder 25 years ago that relaxation of the per se ban on minimum resale price maintenance would be a ‘great danger’ to Wal-Mart's then-relatively-nascent business. In-other-words, Wal-mart’s business model was structured around low price competition. Imagine if manufacturers set restraints – there may have never been a Wal-mart (which some may argue is a good or bad thing).

New distributors, including internet distributors, have similarly invested time, money, and labor in an effort to bring yet lower cost goods to Americans.

What about malls built on the assumption that a discount distributor will remain an anchor tenant?

What about home buyers who have taken a home's distance from such a mall into account?

What about Americans, producers, distributors, and consumers, who have understandably assumed, at least for the last 30 years, that price competition is a legally guaranteed way of life?

Putting the Court's estimate together with the Justice Department's early 1970's study translates a legal regime that permits all resale price maintenance into retail bills that are higher by an average of roughly $750 to $1000 annually for an American family of four. Just how much higher retail bills will be after the Court's decision today, of course, depends upon what is now unknown, namely how courts will decide future cases under a “rule of reason.” But these figures indicate that the amounts involved are important to American families and cannot be dismissed as “tiny.”

The per se rule forbidding minimum resale price maintenance agreements has long been embedded in the law of antitrust. It involves price, the economy's ‘central nervous system.’ It reflects a basic antitrust assumption that consumers often prefer lower prices to more service. It embodies a basic antitrust objective of providing consumers with a free choice about such matters.

In conclusion, Predator’s attorney writes… “As far as a set ‘rule of reason’ or set procedures for litigating a case under the new rule, the Court gives scant guidance. It states, that as courts gain experience in these cases, courts will set rules and procedures to eliminate anticompetitive practices. Thus, how the “rule of reason” will actually be applied in specific circumstances will not be known until the new rule is litigated”.

He continues…. “In light of the application of the rule of reason to price restraints, Predator may set a price restraint restricting the sale price charged by its retailers. However, prior to setting the restraint, Predator should document the motivation and reasons, considering the above factors to ensure the price restraint is done to promote competition in the industry”.

In conclusion – The Final Bottomline… I don’t know how you read those two statements above my friends, but it is up to Predator to document each and every reason as to why it is price fixing each and every item it sells and in doing so, Predator must show how it is done to promote competition in the industry. This is certainly a hercluean task my friends and surely impossible for Predator to display.

OK, so to recap: Predator must show how setting prices at a discount of no more than 20%, how Predator is not allowing its distributors to ‘value add’ to Predator Products and how threatening distributors that they will be cut-off if they don’t tow the Predator line can possibly be done to promote competition in the industry is beyond comprehension. The only thing these things do is manipulate the market, increase costs to consumers, monopolize Predator Products and lastly add to Predators own coffers.

And, by Predator’s own attorney’s words, there is no guarantee that the courts would rule in Predator’s favor. To the contrary, Predator’s attorney states so himself, “thus, how the “rule of reason” will actually be applied in specific circumstances will not be known until the new rule is litigated”.

There is not enough case law. And, what law is on the books is very much against price fixing.

In-other-words my friends, if someone challenged Predator’s motives, Predator’s own attorney is not sure as to what the outcome would be if Predator enforced its price fixing strategy. It is this writers opinion, that while Predator may have deep pockets, Predator is also very deeply at risk because should Predator lose its fight, it would be libel for mega millions in damages. Very interesting my friends and if I were a betting man, I’d lay odds against Predator; given big gun attorneys to fight for the consumer and distributors, my money is on us!

My opinion, and this is sad to say, but I believe that Predator is relying, in large part, on the ignorance of their distributors and fear-factor to further their own agenda.

However, should industry leaders cower in light of Predator’s, what I like to term as illegal price fixing, then the consumers should vote with their pocket-books and boycott Predator products until such time as to break the back of Predator to remove price fixing tactics from their distributors. In addition, Brunswick, McDermott, Viking and Pechauer are also ‘price fixing’ to their distributors with the same maximum 20% discount to consumers on advertised pricing (Pechauer 10%). Where will it end?

Where does the problem really begin. I don’t think one can fault Predator itself but one needs to look into the background and recent history of the company and its management. This writer believes Predator has lost sight of itself being an American Company. At one time Predator manufactured all its products right here in sunny Jacksonville, Florida. However, to increase profits and produce more product for less money, Predator abandoned American workers and went over seas to Communist China. In dealing with the Communists, perhaps now one can understand Predator’s way of thinking and their stance on price fixing as a way of life. Predator needs to wake up and realize that this is the USA and we’re not Communists ruled by a dictator. And, Predator cannot dictate to its distributors at what price they can or cannot sell their products. We have freedom of speech and freedom of choice and freedom to compete without restraint.
 
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Not going to argue your last three posts except the first sentence where you state your opinion that I have come to the wrong opinion. Not me, but the Federal Trade Commission states that MAP is legal, you can disagree all you want with them they still say what the rules are and they say it is legal. None of this is a commentary on my thoughts about Kamui's pricing, it is simply stating what the FTC states on their website showing that your view is wrong. Everyone here is free to read the link. It clearly states companies are allowed to set the pricing for their products. When this is done between two or more companies it is than illegal. But when a single manufacturer does it it is legal.
 
Not going to argue your last three posts except the first sentence where you state your opinion that I have come to the wrong opinion. Not me, but the Federal Trade Commission states that MAP is legal, you can disagree all you want with them they still say what the rules are and they say it is legal. None of this is a commentary on my thoughts about Kamui's pricing, it is simply stating what the FTC states on their website showing that your view is wrong. Everyone here is free to read the link. It clearly states companies are allowed to set the pricing for their products. When this is done between two or more companies it is than illegal. But when a single manufacturer does it it is legal.


Bob...

In the article you site, "Note that this change is in federal standards; some state antitrust laws and international authorities view minimum price rules as illegal, per se"."

The real bottom-line here is that the law needs to be challenged as it can be interpreted two ways. In my opinion price fixing or MAP is illegal. You are restraining the natural flow of the market by setting restraints and studies have shown that MAP does increase pricing in any given market. And if you read my article, you would see that MAP is not in the consumers best interest.

But I'll agree to disagree and call it a day.
 
Joe, great to see the posts and your position to give high quality at lower pricing. I have been pushing this like crazy, glad to see I am not alone on this issue.
 
I'm not a fan of Mr. Barringers conduct with regards to this forum and some friends of mine in general. If I caught you up in that I apologize as it was not my intent.

I understand. Keep up the good work with the stream Justin.
 
Joe, that was a informative, well thought out writeup. I can't speak to the veracity of it all but you do make a solid argument. Unfortunately, its all moot. I doubt anyone would seriously take that on, if nothing else given the expense. Even if you just went after, say Predator, most likely other companies would see it, understand the complications to their business and offer support. And in court, you never really know how the judge will rule or really if you'll even be given a fair shake. But say you are given a fair chance with an impartial Judge. Obviously, you'll have one of 2 outcomes.

1. You win. But, I think you may find it a hollow victory. You've really only won against one company, if the AG or whomever, doesn't enforce it then whats the point. And its almost certain they will appeal to a higher court. A big company can drown you in paperwork and expenses. But what do I know, this could be a huge far reaching win.

2. You lose. Unfortunately, this isn't a lose against one company. You have now set a precedent. And every company that someone tries to go after will reference this case and it will most likely be thrown out before its even heard. And on top of that, companies will be more brazen with their policies and who knows how many others will follow suit.

So what's the point?! Everyone can talk all they want but its doubtful anything will be done. If this was happening in just the Pool industry than 'maybe' someone would look into it but this is being done across across the board. But I would like to see someone try. Go for it! I can't write you a big ol' check but I can put together a nice supplies order :)

I see 3 possible things:
- Everyone will boycott and force them to change their policies (doubtful)
- Someone takes them on, win in court and the world is right again (also doubtful)
- Everyone just sucks it up and pays their prices (thats the one my money is on)
- Actually I though of one other that maybe you're going for here. If you can get enough people *****in' about it, they just maybe someone in congress will notice and look into it. But given how much money you're talking about and how many companies I just don't see it going anywhere. Even the Democrats protect big business.

Thanks for taking the time to write that up, it was a good read!
 
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