Back-Hand English 101

[Vahmurka]

One of most discussed topics in the main forum is Back-Hand English, at the same time this is the one causing a lot of contradictions. Thus it is very hard for a newbie to get the roots of it, just the general idea to start with. I wonder if there is any online source you could recommend to study? Or, if you could provide some nicely illustrated explanations I wouldn't be looking for any other source.

I have never been using BHE but would like to try to see if it could improve my aiming. I'm impressed by snooker players who say they never use visualisation and/or ghost ball technique but aim using fractions of a ball (which I suppose is somewhat similar to BHE and other respective systems)

 

[TheBook]

From what I have seen it is a method to eliminate deflection of the CB when applying spin to it. You line up the shot using a center ball hit on the CB. Then instead of moving your cue in a parallel manner to get the english you want you pivot the cue with your bridge hand being the fulcrum. Thus the term back hand engish because you are moving your back hand to the right or left without moving your bridge hand.

As to help aiming it may because supposedly you don't have to compensate for deflection on long shots. As far as a aiming technique like the ghost ball it is not.

Hopefully this helps explain it to you.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Bhe

Explaining this could get a little messy. I don't actually think about this anymore if I ever really did. But here we go. If you line up a long cut shot for a center cue ball hit & then shift your whole cue stick laterally so it is parellel to the center hit cut shot & you shoot it, the cue ball will 'deflect' out opposite the side of the lateral stick shift. If the cue ball does not curve back in time or curves back too much, you will miss the shot. Even if it does contact the center hit aim point you may still miss the shot because the spin will 'throw' the object ball in the opposite direction of the lateral shift.

You can not get rid of or minimize the lateral deflection unless you're using one of the low deflection shafts So, in an attempt to compensate for the cue ball squirt, instead of doing a lateral shift you can do 1 of 3 things:
1. move the back hand, pivoting on your bridge hand to move the tip to the side
2. move, slide, shift or lean your bridge (front) hand to the side to move the tip
3. or... this is what I'm pretty sure I subconsiously do, which is to move both a little, kind of pivot the stick, back hand moves in one direction & the bridge hand 'moves' in the other direction.

What happens is the cue ball squirts off 'target' or 'aim' line & curves back. To be successful you have to marry the amount of english with the speed of the shot.

I think I did a fair job of explaining it. Keep in mind I'm only talking about small amounts of stick movement. If you were watching & did not have the cue ball as a reference point, you would probably not even notice. But it is noticable because the tip relocates on the cue ball. I don't even actually do it the way I describe it. I set up on it many times with the pivot already done.

Now as for aiming. When you have decided to shoot a shot like that with some amount of side english, you have to plan for the spin to 'throw' the ball some & make the allowance for that.

It sounds complicated, but so would riding a bike if all of the diffferent components were explained with physics & biomechanics lingo.
It takes some time to get it. But when you see it done and the balls keep going in like I did when I watched the old man from whom I stole my pool, You feel like you just have to learn how to do it. Watching him do the things he did with English was like watching magic.

You do not have to use english to play some VERY, VERY good pool. But to me, that would be like painting a portrait on a normal canvas with a 4" house brush instead of a pin point artist's brush. I hope I gave the info. If you have any questions, you can private message me & I will try to answer them if I can. Sorry for being so long winded.

 

[Ratta]

Well,

Vahmurka made this posting in 2009 ^^

 

[FranCrimi]

Explaining this could get a little messy. I don't actually think about this anymore if I ever really did. But here we go. If you line up a long cut shot for a center cue ball hit & then shift your whole cue stick laterally so it is parellel to the center hit cut shot & you shoot it, the cue ball will 'deflect' out opposite the side of the lateral stick shift. If the cue ball does not curve back in time or curves back too much, you will miss the shot. Even if it does contact the center hit aim point you may still miss the shot because the spin will 'throw' the object ball in the opposite direction of the lateral shift.

You can not get rid of or minimize the lateral deflection unless you're using one of the low deflection shafts So, in an attempt to compensate for the cue ball squirt, instead of doing a lateral shift you can do 1 of 3 things:
1. move the back hand, pivoting on your bridge hand to move the tip to the side
2. move, slide, shift or lean your bridge (front) hand to the side to move the tip
3. or... this is what I'm pretty sure I subconsiously do, which is to move both a little, kind of pivot the stick, back hand moves in one direction & the bridge hand 'moves' in the other direction.

What happens is the cue ball squirts off 'target' or 'aim' line & curves back. To be successful you have to marry the amount of english with the speed of the shot.

I think I did a fair job of explaining it. Keep in mind I'm only talking about small amounts of stick movement. If you were watching & did not have the cue ball as a reference point, you would probably not even notice. But it is noticable because the tip relocates on the cue ball. I don't even actually do it the way I describe it. I set up on it many times with the pivot already done.

Now as for aiming. When you have decided to shoot a shot like that with some amount of side english, you have to plan for the spin to 'throw' the ball some & make the allowance for that.

It sounds complicated, but so would riding a bike if all of the diffferent components were explained with physics & biomechanics lingo.
It takes some time to get it. But when you see it done and the balls keep going in like I did when I watched the old man from whom I stole my pool, You feel like you just have to learn how to do it. Watching him do the things he did with English was like watching magic.

You do not have to use english to play some VERY, VERY good pool. But to me, that would be like painting a portrait on a normal canvas with a 4" house brush instead of a pin point artist's brush. I hope I gave the info. If you have any questions, you can private message me & I will try to answer them if I can. Sorry for being so long winded.

I'm curious --- Who do you know who shoots very very good pool without using any sidespin? I can't think of one player.

 

[Bob Jewett]

One of most discussed topics in the main forum is Back-Hand English, at the same time this is the one causing a lot of contradictions. Thus it is very hard for a newbie to get the roots of it, just the general idea to start with. I wonder if there is any online source you could recommend to study? Or, if you could provide some nicely illustrated explanations I wouldn't be looking for any other source.

I have never been using BHE but would like to try to see if it could improve my aiming. I'm impressed by snooker players who say they never use visualisation and/or ghost ball technique but aim using fractions of a ball (which I suppose is somewhat similar to BHE and other respective systems)

Since this has come up again...

A simple explanation of backhand english (BHE): If you want to play a shot with side spin, aim first without the side spin just like any normal un-spun shot, and then without moving your bridge hand, and with the tip paused near the cue ball, move your backhand to the side that will give the side spin you want. Then take a normal stroke back and through.

If you want to learn more about why it works and why it doesn't in some situations, there are lots of on-line resources:
http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2002-10.pdf
http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/BD_articles.html (look for "squirt")
There is lots of stuff about BHE on Dr. Dave's site.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I'm curious --- Who do you know who shoots very very good pool without using any sidespin? I can't think of one player.

I did not highlight that like that &... did you read the rest of the paragraph &... my forum handle is English! & I'm not from England, but I have seen a few local league players that played very good pool with almost no english other than a little follow. I did not say great or awesome pool. It's all relative. Also, I shoot almost every shot with some form of side spin english except when side english would HURT the 'position'

 

[FranCrimi]

I did not highlight that like that & did you read the rest of the paragraph & my forum handle is English! & I'm not from England, but I have seen a few local league players that played very good pool with almost no english other than a little follow. I did not say great or awesome pool. It's all relative.

I still can't think of a single player who plays very very good pool with no sidespin. I can only speak for myself, but knowing what I know, I certainly wouldn't tell any player that they can shoot very very good pool with no sidespin, but that's just me.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I still can't think of a single player who plays very very good pool with no sidespin. I can only speak for myself, but knowing what I know, I certainly wouldn't tell any player that they can shoot very very good pool with no sidespin, but that's just me.

I certainly agree that all things being equall it is certainly much better to know & have english at your disposal. If you could clone a player & then give the english knowledge & ability to the clone, I would bet on the clone every time. As for me, I would probably have to take playing lessons if I could not shoot with english. But... as I said I have seen a few very good league players that played without it. I guess they just never learned it & did the best they could. Which was pretty good. Maybe you're right. Maybe I should not have said 'very, very'. I guess I wanted to be encourageing.

 

[FranCrimi]

I certainly agree that all things being equall it is certainly much better to know & have english at your disposal. If you could clone a player & then give the english knowledge & ability to the clone, I would bet on the clone every time. As for me, I would probably have to take playing lessons if I could not shoot with english. But... as I said I have seen a few very good league players that played without it. I guess they just never learned it & did the best they could. Which was pretty good. Maybe you're right. Maybe I should not have said 'very, very'. I guess I wanted to be encourageing.

One of the most important things I've learned over the years as an instructor is to be very very careful of what you tell someone. You can send them off on the wrong track just because you're not saying something clearly or because you haven't thought it through.

 

[Donny Lutz]

Glad we settled that!

One of the most important things I've learned over the years as an instructor is to be very very careful of what you tell someone. You can send them off on the wrong track just because you're not saying something clearly or because you haven't thought it through.

Well, I'm glad we settled that, as I agreed with both of you! The misunderstanding was not so much with theory as with adjectives.

I teach how to use spin, but also how to use it sparingly.

I had a teammate who actually ran three racks of eight ball - from the break - with an actual broomstick (not a lot of english used there!), and another who had his tip fly off on the break and stubbornly ran the rack with no tip!

A fella named "Willy" told me 47 years ago that I was using too much spin, and he was absolutely right!

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor

 

[SpiderWebComm]

There's no such thing as a championship caliber player who doesn't use side spin or uses side spin sparingly. In reality, players must learn to embrace side spin and master it. The very best players are not afraid of spin and it's rare to see them not use some kind of side spin on any cut shot. Watch any pro match and 90% of shots are loaded-up with side spin (english).

I suggest spending a lot of time with beginning players to make sure they're comfortable making shots from all distances (vertical axis only) and then totally immersing them into english. Force them to sink/swim with all aspects of english. By telling players to avoid using english only prevents them from progressing as a player.

When you see someone running a rack w/ a broomstick or with no tip, they're making balls strickly off natural paths and line of sight. SURE--- you might be able to run a rack or two (or 3) by doing that, but it's purely the luck of the layout that allows one to do that. THE MOMENT the luck of the layout forces you to do something with the CB to get to spot-B, you're done - game over.

These discussions have parallels in golf. The same arguments were made by golf instructors: Should you teach control first and distance later or...distance first and forge control out of chaos?

Jack Nicklaus is quoted as saying (paraphrased off of memory), ".... if I were instructing, I would teach a total novice how to feel comfortable swinging out of their shoes and to drive 300 yards. Over time, control can always be taught. However, if someone becomes comfortable with 240 yard drives, greater distances can rarely be worked into their game at a later time. To compete - you must be a long hitter."

I think the same philosophy should be followed in pool. Immerse beginning students into using english early in their game. Don't shun them from using it -- have them embrace it. If they want to play WELL and COMPETE---- english has to be second nature. Having them avoid it early on isn't the best way to facilitate that from happening.

 

[theUBC]

In my personal opinion bhe is a GREAT tool that you have to learn.
Thanks to Bob Jewett for posting this links!

Personally I really like a mixture of " a little back hand English and a little front hand English" the way Joe Tucker teaches it:


www.joetucker.net

Click on "free videos" and you ll find 3 free videos covering this topic excellent

 

[ENGLISH!]

One of the most important things I've learned over the years as an instructor is to be very very careful of what you tell someone. You can send them off on the wrong track just because you're not saying something clearly or because you haven't thought it through.

I'm not an instructor, but as one, would you tell a student that was frustrated with not being able to get it, english, that he or she will never be able to play very good pool without it, so quit? I don't think so. There is no verbal tone or inflection in the written word & I think many nit pic & assume some things that maybe we should not. I think we need to put things into context & consider what is being 'said', writen, in whole. I think I may not have done that with Scott Lee. That is why I amended my response to his latest challenge. But, I don't think he is very ACCURATE at all with his chosen written words & I do not 'know' if that is on purpose or not. Maybe HE sent me off in the wrong direction.

I first percieved your above quoted reply as a holier than thou type of response but then I considered maybe you were just trying to be helpful & it was intended as constuctive criticisim for future referrence. But to be honest, without verbal tone or inflection or without written carification, I just don't know. So, did you 'send me off' in the wrong direction. Can you please clarify. Which is it?

I believe the topic of this thread was 'back hand english' & look were we are due to all of the criticism, constructive or not. There is not one way to play pool. There is not one way to apply english. Oh, but there is only one way 'the cue ball must struck off center of its' vertical axis'. What good is that statement to someone playing pool or trying to learn how to play pool. Where is the back hand english information in the last few posts?
Sorry, but maybe I 'went off in the wrong direction' when I got on site & 'immeditely' read your post.

 

[ENGLISH!]

There's no such thing as a championship caliber player who doesn't use side spin or uses side spin sparingly. In reality, players must learn to embrace side spin and master it. The very best players are not afraid of spin and it's rare to see them not use some kind of side spin on any cut shot. Watch any pro match and 90% of shots are loaded-up with side spin (english).

I suggest spending a lot of time with beginning players to make sure they're comfortable making shots from all distances (vertical axis only) and then totally immersing them into english. Force them to sink/swim with all aspects of english. By telling players to avoid using english only prevents them from progressing as a player.

When you see someone running a rack w/ a broomstick or with no tip, they're making balls strickly off natural paths and line of sight. SURE--- you might be able to run a rack or two (or 3) by doing that, but it's purely the luck of the layout that allows one to do that. THE MOMENT the luck of the layout forces you to do something with the CB to get to spot-B, you're done - game over.

These discussions have parallels in golf. The same arguments were made by golf instructors: Should you teach control first and distance later or...distance first and forge control out of chaos?

Jack Nicklaus is quoted as saying (paraphrased off of memory), ".... if I were instructing, I would teach a total novice how to feel comfortable swinging out of their shoes and to drive 300 yards. Over time, control can always be taught. However, if someone becomes comfortable with 240 yard drives, greater distances can rarely be worked into their game at a later time. To compete - you must be a long hitter."

I think the same philosophy should be followed in pool. Immerse beginning students into using english early in their game. Don't shun them from using it -- have them embrace it. If they want to play WELL and COMPETE---- english has to be second nature. Having them avoid it early on isn't the best way to facilitate that from happening.

I'm not an instructor, but I TOTALY AGREE! VERY WELL SAID!

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Just to add on to what I mentioned, it might be very enticing for an instructor to have their students stay on the vertical axis: their students will make more balls!!! Students making more balls = students feel they're making progress = more lessons = more income.

Psychologically speaking --- if the student makes more balls, they'll feel more successful. Maybe it depends on what the goals of the student are: 1) Do you want to make more balls than you do now **OR** 2) Do you want to become a good player?

I think 1 dictates the avoidance of english and 2 dictates total immersion into english. It really depends on how much longevity the student has with pool --- is this a short-term phase or are they in for the long-haul?

If they're in for the long-haul, instructors should focus on quantifying improvement through a sea of misses. Sometimes that's in the student's best interest versus having them make a sea of cosmo shots to make them feel good about themselves.

 

[ronscuba]

I have been following the guideline of using english only when necessary for CB position or in the occasion of thin cuts or OB frozen on the rail.

Spider are you suggesting using english to help pocket balls or practicing pocketing balls w/ english so one can get used to the required adjustments for when they need english for CB position ?

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I have been following the guideline of using english only when necessary for CB position or in the occasion of thin cuts or OB frozen on the rail.

Spider are you suggesting using english to help pocket balls or practicing pocketing balls w/ english so one can get used to the required adjustments for when they need english for CB position ?

I think both. As a player becomes more experienced, they might consider a third option which is using english to "prevent bad things from happening" on key shots (such as skidding, etc).

I played a good bit with Mike Sigel and he is adamant about using a hair of outside on every cut shot unless you obviously need inside for positional purposes. Of course, I asked "Why" -- he said, "Because when you've missed as many tournament winning (or affecting, I forget what he said) shots because of a skid, you learn to build-in protections into your game to prevent those things from happening in the future."

I'm sure Sigel's philosophy might seem extreme -- but he's only talking about a 1/2 tip (if that) of outside, trying to prevent skids. If someone thinks he's crazy, I challenge them to debate Sigel on the issue. His conviction on the subject is resolute.

Dave

 

[FranCrimi]

I'm not an instructor, but as one, would you tell a student that was frustrated with not being able to get it, english, that he or she will never be able to play very good pool without it, so quit? I don't think so. There is no verbal tone or inflection in the written word & I think many nit pic & assume some things that maybe we should not. I think we need to put things into context & consider what is being 'said', writen, in whole. I think I may not have done that with Scott Lee. That is why I amended my response to his latest challenge. But, I don't think he is very ACCURATE at all with his chosen written words & I do not 'know' if that is on purpose or not. Maybe HE sent me off in the wrong direction.

I first percieved your above quoted reply as a holier than thou type of response but then I considered maybe you were just trying to be helpful & it was intended as constuctive criticisim for future referrence. But to be honest, without verbal tone or inflection or without written carification, I just don't know. So, did you 'send me off' in the wrong direction. Can you please clarify. Which is it?

I believe the topic of this thread was 'back hand english' & look were we are due to all of the criticism, constructive or not. There is not one way to play pool. There is not one way to apply english. Oh, but there is only one way 'the cue ball must struck off center of its' vertical axis'. What good is that statement to someone playing pool or trying to learn how to play pool. Where is the back hand english information in the last few posts?
Sorry, but maybe I 'went off in the wrong direction' when I got on site & 'immeditely' read your post.

I'm not really interested in what direction you go in because you're not an instructor and you're giving advice in the ask the instructor forum. What concerns me is how your misinformation or miscommunication may be perceived by someone innocently asking a question of instructors.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... I'm sure Sigel's philosophy might seem extreme -- but he's only talking about a 1/2 tip (if that) of outside, trying to prevent skids. If someone thinks he's crazy, I challenge them to debate Sigel on the issue. His conviction on the subject is resolute. ...

Well, yes, but Sigel is in print claiming that throw doesn't exist, so grains of salt are indicated.

However, in this case I think he's right about using outside WP ("whenever possible", as George Fels says). The thing is that skid happens maybe on one shot in 100. For the average player adding 1% misses does not affect their game significantly, but the errors from using side spin on most shots is a big problem. For Sigel, who might only miss 1 in 100 or 1 in 50, adding another 1% of misses due to skid is a huge deal and worth the complication of using side a lot. Or at least that seems like a reasonable argument.