Why Pool is devastated by the new Smoking Laws.

[The Chinchilla]

I think there should be a smoking state, or a smoking society, or even a planet. I mean you love it so much, why not get as much smoke as you can, and be around other, similar and like-minded people. Seems perfect, like a smoker's utopia. Walk into the pool room and smell that stench that you love. Maybe we could even invent some sort of contraption you fit over your head when you smoke, so all the smoke will stay within your head cavity for as long as you'd like.

I don't know, I'd honestly like to drop by the average smoker's house and take a trashcan, put maybe some plastics and some paint in there, and light in and let the smoke seep into everything in your house. Maybe those chemicals would bug you as much as cigarettes bug me. Why do you feel like you are doing anything less invasive than that when you smoke in public -- except it is to a person's body/clothes/lungs etc, and not their house.

 

[Paul Schofield]

I think there should be a smoking state, or a smoking society, or even a planet. I mean you love it so much, why not get as much smoke as you can, and be around other, similar and like-minded people. Seems perfect, like a smoker's utopia. Walk into the pool room and smell that stench that you love. Maybe we could even invent some sort of contraption you fit over your head when you smoke, so all the smoke will stay within your head cavity for as long as you'd like.

I don't know, I'd honestly like to drop by the average smoker's house and take a trashcan, put maybe some plastics and some paint in there, and light in and let the smoke seep into everything in your house. Maybe those chemicals would bug you as much as cigarettes bug me. Why do you feel like you are doing anything less invasive than that when you smoke in public -- except it is to a person's body/clothes/lungs etc, and not their house.

Yea, we get it. You don't like cigarettes. So what. That is not what this thread is about. We are talking about the bans effect on the business of pool.

I spoke with the owner of a national billiard supply distribution company that has accounts in every state. He explained to me that the last place where the pool business is still good is the state of Florida where the poolrooms have gotten exemptions.

How does pool attract enough non-smokers to make a poolroom business viable? I honestly don't have an answer here.

 

[tedzap]

Well I know that since the smoking bans have gone in effect, smokers still leave their homes for entertainment no matter what anyone thinks. I come from a line of pool hall owners. My dad, uncle, and grandfather all owned poolrooms and I always thought I would open a room one day. I have changed my mind over th years and the reason has nothing to do with smoking bans. I won't do it because its too costly to rent or buy property in a decent area where people want to go out to. Sure serious players will go into seedy areas of town to shoot pool, but honestly pool players are the WORST customers and you cannot survive catering to them.

I think that you hit the nail on the head. Smokers are still going out to be social, and are still playing pool. Instead of blaming the smoking ban (which has nothing to do with pools decline), it is the business model of trying to run a square-footage intensive business that targets the lowest economic class. The smoking ban just aggravates a bad strategy.

It would seem that the current business model was developed during the depression, when square footage was cheap.

If you talk to the folks at Diamond tables (who I expect have as good a grasp on the market as anyone) the majority of the pool rooms that are turning a profit are doing so by supporting and catering to the leagues.

Where I live, the leagues are a social gathering of the working class. Not only does it promote the game, but you have people with money who are mostly watching others shoot. Given the bodies, it now falls on the room owner to offer things which will pry open the wallets.



BTW, pool players are NOT the WORST customers, you should see the poker league players. They make pool players look like ATM machines.

 

[nick serdula]

Wow

This thread is about what the new smoking laws mean to pool. This thread is not a rant about who has got what rights and the heavy hand of government.

The new smoking laws are a catastrophic blow and a dagger through the heart of the business of pocket billiards. How can this be? Many restaurants and bars that have rid themselves of smoking have actually seen their sales recover and increase. If this is true then this must also extrapolate to poolrooms. It doesn’t. We have lost more than 70% of our poolrooms.

The answer sits in the governments demographic reports on smokers. Its eye opening and easy to see why some businesses benefit and others are destroyed.

1. The more educated an individual is, the less likely he/she smokes. A person with a mere high school education is 8X more like to smoke than a person with a college education beyond a bachelor degree.
2. In parallel, the higher a person’s income and net worth is, the less likely a person smokes. At the same time, the closer a person’s income approaches the poverty line, the more likely a person smokes.
3. Looking at a graph of smokers from the ages of 18 to 80, the closer a person is to the age of 18, the more likely the person smokes.

Who is our clientele? Take a look at the big picture. When a restaurant disallows smoking, and its customer base is from the 2nd and 3rd tier (5 tiers) of the demographic scale, smokers are replaced with many more non-smokers. This is because the smoker to non-smoker ratio heavily favors the non-smokers in this demographic.

The business of pool draws heaviest from the lowest fifth of the demographic scale. The highest percentage of smokers is in this group. Pool appeals to this group and our poolrooms are built to serve this group. Tell them that they can’t smoke in a poolroom and who replaces them? The smoker to non-smoker ratio in this demographic is much different than the tiers above them.

The smoking laws are here to stay and they will only become more stringent. This is very bad news for pool. Pool’s only hope is to break out of its current demographic. It has to be able to compete with the recreational options afforded by the higher demographic groups. This can only happen if our great game becomes more and different than what it is. Right now, it does not compete well.

Only dumd smokers play pool?
Nick

 

[matcase]

Smoking bans are just going to become more prevalent. I say smokers unite...first give up the damn things, second spend all the cig. money at the pool hall. Think of the result, the shift in profits from the tobacco company stock holders to the pool room owners. New Simonis and Kamui for everybody...Hail, Hail, Hai.

 

[The Chinchilla]

Yea, we get it. You don't like cigarettes.

I know, I go around your question.

Truth is though, it's not that I dont like cigarettes, that is almost beside the point. The point is, how can anybody justify that they should have the right to blow smoke in a 2 year old's face. How can you do that, and why dont you feel terrible for doing it. One can't justify it. And make no mistake, if you smoke in public, children ingest your fumes. Anyway, hope you find your solution to the problem. I'd say move to Asia if you really want a solution.

 

[OneIron]

How does pool attract enough non-smokers to make a poolroom business viable? I honestly don't have an answer here.

I think the smoking ban is one way. Clean up the pool rooms so that they are more family oriented and attract a demographic with more disposable income. I personally don't believe that the smokers will quit playing pool because of a smoking ban. They'll quickly figure out that it's not that much of an inconvenience to walk 15 feet to the door to smoke.

 

[OneIron]

Only dumd smokers play pool?
Nick

Nope. But I bet a higher percentage of poolplayers smoke than in the general public.

 

[Spider1]

The point is, how can anybody justify that they should have the right to blow smoke in a 2 year old's face. How can you do that, and why dont you feel terrible for doing it. One can't justify it. And make no mistake, if you smoke in public, children ingest your fumes.

Most states don't allow children in bars.

A strawman and an appeal to emotion all wrapped up in one.

 

[bes]

I spoke with the owner of a national billiard supply distribution company that has accounts in every state. He explained to me that the last place where the pool business is still good is the state of Florida where the poolrooms have gotten exemptions.
QUOTE]

Paul,

Oklahoma is very nearly 100% smoking in pool halls. To my knowledge, there hasn't been a pool boom here. Several places just seem to be hanging on.

I don't think that the smoking issue is easy to resolve.

There is one non-smoking hall in Okc. It is where I, and quite a few others spend our money. I'd like to see them succeed, since it is the only place I really enjoy playing. Their down-side is that they have limited hours, no alcohol, and very limited food. I think that selling beer, getting a grill, and extending hours would help their bottom line. But getting an alcohol license and setting up a "kitchen" aren't cheap. Also all the above would have "staffing implications". I also think that extended hours, alcohol, and food would make leagues more feasible (and profitable).

But there is another pool hall that seems to attract lots of "yutes", and seems to do so largely DUE to smoking. In the evenings the place is usually packed with 16 - 25 year old smokers. Going there in the evening means choking on amazingly dense smoke and listening to loud, HORRIBLE (various flavors) music. (Dang, when did I turn into an old fart?) I personally can't take it, and many folks I know who once frequented the place almost never go anymore. That being said, they appear to be doing OK financially - the kids play pool, drink beer, and eat, and they also have leagues whose players spend money.

There are other halls and bars with tolerable equipment that are (to varying degrees) less smoky. The ones also lacking loud, obnoxious music are almost tolerable. I'd spend more of my time and money there if my non-smoking place weren't around. But I MUCH prefer not dealing with smoke. I would honestly play less pool if that were my only option.

Like every other part of life, you can't make everyone happy.

A smoking ban would probably do some damage - at least initially - to the "Power-Smoking-Kids" place. I think that it would eventually open the place up for people who now avoid it. Would it be a good, bad, or break-even thing in the long run? No idea.

A smoking ban might also cause the non-smoking place to lose a few customers. Maybe folk who drive a significant distance to avoid smoky bars and halls would choose to stay closer to home... Again, who knows?

bes

 

[Paul Schofield]

I always hear how we need a new movie to create a new boom. Everyone talks about impact of "The Color of Money". The movie came and went but it was the appearance of Joe Camel in 1988 that carried the day. Pool was on billboards, print advertising, neon signs, and everything that you could imagine all over the world for nearly a decade.

Joe Camel was not a gymnast, synchronized swimmer, or ice skater. He was a poker playing, guitar playing, pool playing, cool guy. It was by far RJ Reynolds most successful ad campaign in its long history. It was all directed at young people with disposable cash (pool's market). Tobacco has always been a part of the pool culture. Note the tobacco cards 1900-1910. A game of pool, a smoke, and a beer is like a hamburger, french fries, and a Coke. Its like cake and ice cream. Its a natural.

An unintended consequence of the government's ban is that the culture of pool gets changed. I don't think that pool less smoking is just pool. When Joe Camel was around, 1 + 1 equaled 3.

Pool has got to get a new image. I don't know what that is.

 

[cueandcushion]

Pool was cool. It was Tom Cruise because he was the biggest star on the planet when Color of Money came out. Celebrities played pool. Joe Camel was everywhere! The bar leagues were just really exploding. Trying to make something cool and fashionable and current and relevant happens more by luck than by planning. Two years ago my nieces were buying and asking for those little rubber band bracelets in a frenzy. Now they haven't worn them in a year. Pool rooms would be better to add things into their rooms that attract younger people who might gravitate to pool later. Adding things like game consoles or nice coffee selection, or sushi, or things that many posters on here would be horrified by. The "old" pool room business model needs to be adjusted if pool rooms are going to survive. Many people on AZB hate the rooms that have converted to "family entertainment centers" but I have a feeling those places have a much larger chance of success.

 

[Paul Schofield]

I will add these iconic pictures to post #291 (Joe Camel and the tobacco trading cards). Love it or hate it, tobacco products have always been a part of the pool culture.

 

[crabbcatjohn]

great post

Pool room business is down across the board. Even in states that allow smoking in pool rooms.


Does anyone ever count the number of people LOST because of pool rooms being smoking? There are a lot of people who refuse to go to pool rooms because of the smoking.


Logically, one would think it would be a good idea for the pool industry to get on board with the growing trend, rather than fight tooth and nail to appeal to a shrinking, demographic. Less and less people are smoking. Less youth are taking it up as a habit than in the past. There are less smokers now, than at any point previously. The majority of potential customers are non-smokers, NOT smokers.


Why on Earth would the pool world keep on chasing after what will eventually become a small minority of people? That's not a strategy for long term success. Going after a demographic that will be almost obsolete.


Answer: Because they are short-sighted. They see the initial losses and don't see the potential growth. Pool rooms are and have been associated with smoking. They are also one of the last businesses and places to switch over or in many places, still have smoking. Because of that, perceptions and culture has not adapted yet. It takes time. Now is a very bad time for these laws to take effect, forcing pool rooms to change or adapt in the middle of a depression for pool rooms.


There's a lot of hysteria out there. Does a smoking ban keep people from going to bars and clubs? Do people just stop drinking? Do they stop going out? Of course not. I've been to places that are non-smoking but that have full liquor bars. There's PLENTY of people drinking. There's PLENTY of people who want to get trashed who have no interest in smoking or who smoke.


Is not liquor the #1 source of income for pool rooms? Yes it is.


Clinging to smokers is a recipe for disaster. Clinging to the smoking clientele is a sure way to go out of business down the road. Because their time is numbered. It's only a matter of time before these smoking laws are universal across the nation. Then what?

In states where smoking is banned most places, except for bars and pool rooms, pool rooms are actually doing well appealing to the crowd of smokers who want a place they can hang and light up a smoke. That's not a case of market forces in play, but rather manipulation by government through the use of laws. They will eventually stop smoking in these rooms and then what? Attracting that clientele will no longer work. Now comes the day of reckoning, when the pool room no longer has a clique clientele, but has to compete for "mainstream" customers of all types. They can no longer rely on being a safe-zone or island for those persecuted smokers to land.


Pool rooms are closing up all around the country. Even in smoking states, counties and cities. That has more to do with the bad economy. Don't forget, that thousands of rooms opened up in the last decade or so too. Rooms that did not exist before. They opened only because of the window of opportunity created by the various economic bubbles (dotcom, housing etcetera) and a lot of people had a lot of disposable income to go out and party. A lot of people don't have that free ATM anymore with their stocks or their home equity, and naturally there is a retraction.

Rooms that had a business model that survived prior to the bubble boom, are still surviving now. The only thing hurting them is the high cost of rent. But that is crushing all store front businesses.


The sooner pool rooms can adapt to non-smoking, the better. The sooner they can find a away to attract or bring back people who weren't strictly smokers, the better. It's going to be a long painful process for that industry to rebuild image and get new customers. The smoking-ban movement has been going on for at least 20 years. It's unfortunate that pool is the last one out, because all other businesses have had to adapt a long time ago and have figured it out. They also have many customers that might have been pool players.


If pool rooms really die off as a result, and cannot adapt or appeal to non-smokers - what can anyone say at that point? Maybe pool's time is up?

This has to be the best post i've ever read on this subject.
One point to add, if a room is non-smoking smokers can simply step outside and have a cig when needed, this does not affect the smokers and in most cases they are used to this by now. In a smoking room , non-smokers have no choice but not to come to that room. By allowing smoking you loose half of your customer base.

 

[Celophanewrap]

I will add these iconic pictures to post #291 (Joe Camel and the tobacco trading cards). Love it or hate it, tobacco products have always been a part of the pool culture.

...at least until recently. Back when those photos were taken the game was straight pool. The culture has changed, if billiards can't find a way to keep up it'll be left behind to rot. Almost no one considers it a legitiment sport. Even back when those photos were produced pool was played by unsavory types in speakeasys and smoke filled juke joints that housed people with low moral fiber and bad habits, most of society still sees it just that way. Pool needs a hero, a face, some personality, some prime time, an image change. The same crowd that fills in these threads are the only one that actually know what the Mosconi Cup is. Now, I dispise reality shows, but maybe something like that would give pool the face and maybe some of the exposure it needs. Since we've been totally snubbed by the Olympics that avenue has closed. People are doing things that are considered healthy so most extracirricular activities tend to lean that way, just about the only time a pool hall ever serves fruit and vegtables is in cranberry juice and vodka. Pool needs a movie with real stars and actors, not Jennifer Baretta,
although I do like looking at her, the movie needed Kate Hudson. Pool needs a movie, a hero, a face it can recognize and relate to, sadly - maybe a reality show.

 

[genomachino]

Time to stop blaming the smoking ban for business failure.

Pool in general is down all over.

Where the smoking ban really hurt poolhalls and bars is where the cities started their own smoking ban because the state dragged their feet.

When this happens all the business that smokes goes to the townships around the city so they can smoke.

it's still going to happen in the smoking states. They try to keep it going so the cities make their own bans and put places out of business. By trying to stop the state smoking ban it just creates a new monster. City smoking bans.

Right now I'm playing pool in the smoking places in our pool world.

With so many players smoking at the tournaments I'm at even many of the smokers aren't liking it and some say that it makes them sick. That's pretty strong. The players all hate it.

The locals can't hardly stand it either. But just get ready for the great smoke out.

One place I was at one of the air conditioners went out making it almost unbearably hot. The air didn't circulate very well at all.

I was amazed. Rather than realize how bad the smoke and the air was the smokers just kept lighting up. It was actually pretty funny. But rediculous.

I was sick for a week.

How can you build a business and try to get new customers when there is smoke. Clothes smell bad, eyes hurt, throat hurts.

Many possible new customers would not be caught in such an unhealthy environment.

I know. I had a bar/poolhall for 11 years. People that didn't smoke didn't want to be there.

If anything I think pool is on the upswing. Every home that I go to and give lessons has a beautiful pool table.

There again. the players don't want to be in the smoke.

 

[CreeDo]

man, who brought a dead smoking thread back to life after six months? >_<

But anyway. The topic always works me up. I'll just leave it at this: There are specific pool halls I avoid because of the smoke, and I hate that I have to play league at one of them, and it makes me want to quit that league. Moving to a state and discovering they allowed smoking was a huge letdown in an otherwise great area for pool players.

I like to imagine a world where the habit has just died out everywhere, but the idea might as well be something from a science fiction novel.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

The culture sure has changed. I know smokers who won't smoke in their own homes and go out in the back yard to light up.

Back in "The Hustler" days more people smoked and way fewer non-smokers were against it. Frankly even the medical community was ignorant of the ill effects. There was a time when you could smoke in hospitals for gosh sakes, and people did, including doctors.

Bottom line is if you allow smoking today you will lose most of the non-smokers. If smoking is not allowed, maybe some smokers will go elsewhere but if you have a good room with good equipment many will stay and just go outside to smoke.

 

[Snapshot9]

Smoking laws

Here in Wichita, 2 of our main Pool rooms got around the smoking ban by declaring part of their room, in a seperate room, a cigar bar. So they both have a room for non-smokers and a room for smokers. Say what you will I have watched this for 50 years, and even today, 2/3's of the patrons are in the smoking room. One has smoking in a big room with 10 tables in it, and the other in a room with 3 tables.

Now pay attention here, most of the action is where the smoking is, and where the action is is where the railbirds are. You are not going to change anything much, except some places people have to go outside to smoke, and that means smoke breaks between matches or sets. Non smokers do not dominate the world as some wouild have you think they do.

And yes, I am a smoker, for 50 years, the same length as I have been playing Pool. I took up both when I was 14. I do not believe that second hand smoke causes Cancer ... period. Hell, my grade school principal died from lung cancer and he never smoked a day in his life. I believe your just as likely to inherit traits from your parents and grandparents that would make it likely for you to get cancer.

I try to be a curteous smoker, and not offend anyone, and yes, I will go outside to smoke. I don't smoke in my apartment, I go outside to smoke.

Bottom line - Don't tell anyone else how to live their life, let them decide for themselves and 'live and let live'.

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

A game of pool, a smoke, and a beer is like a hamburger, french fries, and a Coke. Its like cake and ice cream. Its a natural.

Really Paul. I'm a smoker and I can't believe you said this. No wait, yes I can. I've read some of the other things you've typed.

Pool has got to get a new image. I don't know what that is.

How about Joe Camel in a hoodie? I bet you'd just squirt yourself if Camel did this for the younger crowd. You'd be selling Joe Camel Paul's Pool Hall hoodies in about the time it took you to have them made.

But seriously Paul. I thought all this dress code BS was your way of doing your part to help pool halls the world over to change the image of pool.

So its ok to smoke in your pool hall and blow smoke all over your staff, yourself, and non smoking patrons as long as the smokers are not wearing hoodies and are wearing a pair of Dockers and Sketchers?

Should start selling for Snap On Paul. You could have a cube van with the logo on the side: I'm A Tool.