Obviously it's easy to get confused in this thread. I concede that he was sober when the ref made the call.
Got Cheated In Olathe
- Thread starter 1 Lone Wolf
- Start date
Obviously it's easy to get confused in this thread. I concede that he was sober when the ref made the call.
Situation
I have known Evelyn and Danny for years and years, and they are about as fair as they come. Although, situations arise that are debatable. And I agree, half and half calls are suppose to go to the shooter, otherwise they should have just played the whole game over.
I have known Evelyn and Danny for years and years, and they are about as fair as they come. Although, situations arise that are debatable. And I agree, half and half calls are suppose to go to the shooter, otherwise they should have just played the whole game over.
Live in the present, play in the present, but you already know that.
I think some of us on this forum fail to realize what it takes to compete in these events at their level. I dare to say it is far more stressful than holding down a 40 hour a week job where you know you're going to pick up a pay check each and every Friday. Few of us can fathom the effort it takes to try and play pool at this level and attempt to make a living at playing pool. The stress has to be unbearable at times.
Tournament directors make mistakes. We all do. It happens from time to time and sometimes, yes, people are often biased in their perspectives and opinions, even tournament directors although they shouldn't be.
I empathize greatly with Gary about the way he lost the match. Gary is obviously super-steamed because he believes it wasn't a mistake but that an out and out cheating happened. If I believe that I was cheated, I would be screaming bloody murder at anyone and everyone, whether I was drinking or not drinking. The trouble is that Evelyn (who I don't know) could have just made a mistake in judgment, kind of like Gary getting so angry that his anger showed. I've played Gary (and lost to him) and watched him play others and haven't noticed any bad behavior by him. Evelyn may have just not made the best decision. It's possible that she wasn't genuinely trying to cheat Gary out of anything and may have thought at the time that her call was the correct call.
Life isn't fair as others have mentioned. I believe in the law of attraction which states that we all control what is attracted to us.
Gary, you've let off a little steam and we all need to do that once in a while no matter who we are. Don't paint all of the forum members with the same brush. Yes, most forum members couldn't beat you if you gave them the 5 out but that doesn't mean that you should turn your anger toward them either. The forums can be a mean-spirited place for those who haven't learned how this game is played. Forum posting is kind of like playing pool. It takes a while to get the hang of it and if you're not willing to learn how it is played, it is probably best not to take it up.
I like the idea of you posting on the forum, even this grievance for which I empathize with you.
Just keep in mind that Evelyn may have made the decision based upon what she thought was right at the time and it may not have been an attempt to cheat you out of anything. It could have just been a bad decision on her part.
Regardless, you've still got lots of pool left in you and you can choose where you will play in the future. Who knows, if Evelyn realizes that she made a mistake, she might even give you a little grace for your poor behavior after the fact.
I believe there are more tournaments today, than ever before. Nice one coming up in Tallahassee this coming weekend with $3000 added money if I am not mistaken. Put that steam to work winning the next event and best of luck to you in your journey.
I think some of us on this forum fail to realize what it takes to compete in these events at their level. I dare to say it is far more stressful than holding down a 40 hour a week job where you know you're going to pick up a pay check each and every Friday. Few of us can fathom the effort it takes to try and play pool at this level and attempt to make a living at playing pool. The stress has to be unbearable at times.
Tournament directors make mistakes. We all do. It happens from time to time and sometimes, yes, people are often biased in their perspectives and opinions, even tournament directors although they shouldn't be.
I empathize greatly with Gary about the way he lost the match. Gary is obviously super-steamed because he believes it wasn't a mistake but that an out and out cheating happened. If I believe that I was cheated, I would be screaming bloody murder at anyone and everyone, whether I was drinking or not drinking. The trouble is that Evelyn (who I don't know) could have just made a mistake in judgment, kind of like Gary getting so angry that his anger showed. I've played Gary (and lost to him) and watched him play others and haven't noticed any bad behavior by him. Evelyn may have just not made the best decision. It's possible that she wasn't genuinely trying to cheat Gary out of anything and may have thought at the time that her call was the correct call.
Life isn't fair as others have mentioned. I believe in the law of attraction which states that we all control what is attracted to us.
Gary, you've let off a little steam and we all need to do that once in a while no matter who we are. Don't paint all of the forum members with the same brush. Yes, most forum members couldn't beat you if you gave them the 5 out but that doesn't mean that you should turn your anger toward them either. The forums can be a mean-spirited place for those who haven't learned how this game is played. Forum posting is kind of like playing pool. It takes a while to get the hang of it and if you're not willing to learn how it is played, it is probably best not to take it up.
I like the idea of you posting on the forum, even this grievance for which I empathize with you.
Just keep in mind that Evelyn may have made the decision based upon what she thought was right at the time and it may not have been an attempt to cheat you out of anything. It could have just been a bad decision on her part.
Regardless, you've still got lots of pool left in you and you can choose where you will play in the future. Who knows, if Evelyn realizes that she made a mistake, she might even give you a little grace for your poor behavior after the fact.
I believe there are more tournaments today, than ever before. Nice one coming up in Tallahassee this coming weekend with $3000 added money if I am not mistaken. Put that steam to work winning the next event and best of luck to you in your journey.
Durbin Cues
New member
I would like to make some comments on this situation from a couple different angles.
First of all, Evelyn Dysart is one of the most upstanding people I know. She and Danny run one of the best and fairest tours going anywhere. She would call a foul on her own mother if it was the right call. It doesn't matter if you are a champion or a nobody the treatment is the same.
As you know bad calls are part of any sport, not seeing it makes it harder, but when it comes down to it, you made a careless error in moving the object ball in the first place, which brought the call to be made inthe fiirst place. You should take the decision and move on. Quit screaming about it let your game do the talking.
As most of you now, I am Gary Lutman's cue sponsor. I am also Joey Gray's. I am one of the title sponsors of the Midwest 9 ball Tour for 12 years or more, I hate to see something like this put a black cloud on a great event. The whole story must be told, and you know I was there. First, Gary, you got out of line with Evelyn shortly after the match in question so bad that she took you outside and put you on warning. Then you tried to convince everyone in the room that you are getting screwwed. When Dan Tull didn't want to hear about is when you went off the deep end. Why not just come back through the losers bracket...someone is going to be there, why not you? Instead you do the most unprofessional thing you can do...lose control!! The early morning spectacle you put on was one of the worst things I have witnessed in my life. Earl on his worst day gets the 7 from you saturday night. I have never been more embarrassed.
As far as Evelyn owing you money...forget it. You owe Dan and Evelyn, Dan Tull and everyone at Shooter's the biggest apology of you life!! As far as me, don't call me for a couple of weeks, because as mad as you were...it can't compare to how mad I am and disappointed in someone I have tried to help.
First of all, Evelyn Dysart is one of the most upstanding people I know. She and Danny run one of the best and fairest tours going anywhere. She would call a foul on her own mother if it was the right call. It doesn't matter if you are a champion or a nobody the treatment is the same.
As you know bad calls are part of any sport, not seeing it makes it harder, but when it comes down to it, you made a careless error in moving the object ball in the first place, which brought the call to be made inthe fiirst place. You should take the decision and move on. Quit screaming about it let your game do the talking.
As most of you now, I am Gary Lutman's cue sponsor. I am also Joey Gray's. I am one of the title sponsors of the Midwest 9 ball Tour for 12 years or more, I hate to see something like this put a black cloud on a great event. The whole story must be told, and you know I was there. First, Gary, you got out of line with Evelyn shortly after the match in question so bad that she took you outside and put you on warning. Then you tried to convince everyone in the room that you are getting screwwed. When Dan Tull didn't want to hear about is when you went off the deep end. Why not just come back through the losers bracket...someone is going to be there, why not you? Instead you do the most unprofessional thing you can do...lose control!! The early morning spectacle you put on was one of the worst things I have witnessed in my life. Earl on his worst day gets the 7 from you saturday night. I have never been more embarrassed.
As far as Evelyn owing you money...forget it. You owe Dan and Evelyn, Dan Tull and everyone at Shooter's the biggest apology of you life!! As far as me, don't call me for a couple of weeks, because as mad as you were...it can't compare to how mad I am and disappointed in someone I have tried to help.
Not much I can add now. Seems Mr. Durbin took care of that. As for the Dysart's I've never heard anything but good about their officiating.
I almost never will ask spectators for their opinion, other than possibly the score may be wrong if a player failed to move a bead over. When several people tell me that is the case I tend to believe them. But I will NEVER ask spectators if a hit is good or bad. That's a sure recipe for disaster.
As for those of you who say the call MUST always go to the shooter, also wrong! There are often ways to find out what really happened and it sounds like Evelyn was doing exactly what I would have done, ask both players INDIVIDUALLY to recreate the shot as best they can. Usually in such a discussion you can discern what actually happened on the shot in question. If after such a discussion I can't determine what the correct call is, I may ask who broke the balls and then ask them to start the game over.
There are little tricks you learn when directing tournaments and I'm sure Evelyn and Danny know them all. :wink:
I almost never will ask spectators for their opinion, other than possibly the score may be wrong if a player failed to move a bead over. When several people tell me that is the case I tend to believe them. But I will NEVER ask spectators if a hit is good or bad. That's a sure recipe for disaster.
As for those of you who say the call MUST always go to the shooter, also wrong! There are often ways to find out what really happened and it sounds like Evelyn was doing exactly what I would have done, ask both players INDIVIDUALLY to recreate the shot as best they can. Usually in such a discussion you can discern what actually happened on the shot in question. If after such a discussion I can't determine what the correct call is, I may ask who broke the balls and then ask them to start the game over.
There are little tricks you learn when directing tournaments and I'm sure Evelyn and Danny know them all. :wink:
DrOnePocket
Banned
There are many players that will argue with you about Evelyn's fairness. But you don't know that until you are the one that gets screwed. She was wrong, i have talked to 3 people today that saw what happened and no one agrees with her. this isn't the first time she has made a call like this in favor of a certain group
It took no time...a mere glance were sufficient.
If I can inspire but one person in life ( you ) I have succeeded in my lowly quest!
I don't patrol, I merely ferret out magnificence.
But seriously, what's a 'red rep'?
Dang. Now I'm going to have to re-read it 'cause I didn't see THAT!
That changes everything!
Did he say what kind of monkey?
So you got robbed and misbehaved?
After ferreting though all the hands on deck comments it would seem
that whilst Evelyn may have made a 'bad call', OP, yours was worse as
indicated by the shock at your poor decorum expressed by those that witnessed it first hand.
That's what I come away with.
Your behavior is why many like to say pool is a classless sport for those of ill-breeding and going to pool parlors is a risky endeavor, at best.
No offense to you as I'm sure you're a great guy but the consensus is
there for all to see/read.
Thank God I've never made an arse of myself when I've drunk to much.
:wink:
When you cool down I'm sure you'll let it go and man up on your part of the debacle.
You're too well-respected to do anything else.
The problem here is that there is no mutual agreement as to the exact placement of the moved ball.
The problem here is that there is no mutual agreement as to the exact placement of the moved ball.
The problem here is that there is no mutual agreement as to the exact placement of the moved ball.
If that becomes an all too familiar ruling,then it'll just be too easy for the "less than veracious" to abuse imo.
^This is exactly why the call MUST always go to the shooter.
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I agree with u Lenny
I went to Shooters after work tonight and saw some disturbing video clips from peoples phones, and a diagram of what happened. I know pass on any judgement of this event.
I went to Shooters after work tonight and saw some disturbing video clips from peoples phones, and a diagram of what happened. I know pass on any judgement of this event.
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to danny, evelyn, dan tull, and mike durbin.
i owned starlite cafe and billiards in st. louis for 10 years, and after that i owned sharkys in collinsville 14 years. i have hosted many large events over the years. i think danny and evelyn run the best tournaments i have played in. they have directed many successful tournaments for me, that is why i chose my favorite tournament to go to. mike durbin has entered me in several tournaments and dan tull has done a lot to help me over the years.
when i questioned evelyn about the hit immediatly after the call she was disrespectful and rude, i was upset and didnt care about anything at this point, i started drinking at this point and i treated her like i felt i was treated, with total disrespect, i dont think i got a fair shake. however now its over and thats it.
mike, i have always been straight up with you, and honest. i believe in my heart what happened wasnt fair. remember the night before and i told you i was going to beat joey, i was right. nothing excuses my behavour, and i am more embaressed than you , trust me. if you dont think i have lived up to being a player rep. for you and i am a embaressment to you, thats your call. i am also a person with feelings and no disrespect to you, i have always tried to proudly promote the best cue i have ever owned.
i have been honored to represent your name and i can honestly say i have done that. i got out of line but i think i would do it again without drinking.
i think a lot of danny and evelyn, but that doesnt make this right. mike you werent there when evelyn talked to me like a dog at the bar about 30 minutes after the incedent. i treat people like they treat me, if thats not right, thats the way i was raised. sorry about the whole thing, havent heard that from evelyn.
sincerly,
GARY LUTMAN
i owned starlite cafe and billiards in st. louis for 10 years, and after that i owned sharkys in collinsville 14 years. i have hosted many large events over the years. i think danny and evelyn run the best tournaments i have played in. they have directed many successful tournaments for me, that is why i chose my favorite tournament to go to. mike durbin has entered me in several tournaments and dan tull has done a lot to help me over the years.
when i questioned evelyn about the hit immediatly after the call she was disrespectful and rude, i was upset and didnt care about anything at this point, i started drinking at this point and i treated her like i felt i was treated, with total disrespect, i dont think i got a fair shake. however now its over and thats it.
mike, i have always been straight up with you, and honest. i believe in my heart what happened wasnt fair. remember the night before and i told you i was going to beat joey, i was right. nothing excuses my behavour, and i am more embaressed than you , trust me. if you dont think i have lived up to being a player rep. for you and i am a embaressment to you, thats your call. i am also a person with feelings and no disrespect to you, i have always tried to proudly promote the best cue i have ever owned.
i have been honored to represent your name and i can honestly say i have done that. i got out of line but i think i would do it again without drinking.
i think a lot of danny and evelyn, but that doesnt make this right. mike you werent there when evelyn talked to me like a dog at the bar about 30 minutes after the incedent. i treat people like they treat me, if thats not right, thats the way i was raised. sorry about the whole thing, havent heard that from evelyn.
sincerly,
GARY LUTMAN
It's not as simple as you would like to think it is. Or as cut and dried either. There is a science to handling situations like this and it's doubtful I could teach you in a few minutes on here. Your trite answers only tell me that you haven't a clue how a situation like this can often be handled. Over the years I have probably had to resolve several hundred situations identical to the one described here. I don't want to ask you how many you've encountered on your keyboard, but I'm sure you got them all right. I would say that about 95% of the time I've been successful in making a ruling that both players could live with. Of course one of them is always a little displeased, that's the nature of the game.
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It is nice to see an apology from Gary on here. Clearly he is still mad at Evelyn but it looks like he understands his actions have made some people unhappy and he is sorry about that.
Early on in this post it says that I stuck up for him and walked out in protest. I would like to clarify that. I was on down at the other end of the room during the late night tirade during his second match. It disgusted me to see what he did but I wasn't surprised either. I had been hearing about it all day and I knew how mad he was. I suggested to him that the best thing he can do is just go back and play good. I've known Gary for a long time - long enough to know that he doesn't listen to anyone so I knew I was wasting my breath. Sometimes his competitiveness cannot be controlled.
Following the tirade, after he went outside, most people around Evelyn's desk, including Evelyn and Danny, were smiling and laughing about it, which, looking back, is completely normal and to be expected. After all, that's what we do when Earl has his meltdowns.
I had been drinking with Gary to show my support for his situation since talking to him wouldn't work and I did agree that it was a bad call as it was explained to me. As a bar and poolroom owner and pool promoter myself, something inside of me (tequila) decided I didn't like the situation and wanted to do something about it. When I have a heated disagreement in my bar, it is my policy that no one says another word about it, we don't pick sides, we just drop it, period. That would have been awesome in this case.
I went down to Evelyn's desk and announced that I have one statement to say: "You shouldn't be down here smiling because these events were all set in motion because of a bad call that you made and that you never should have given him ball in hand when you didn't see the shot."
They didn't let me get out quite that fast, trying to defend their position, but almost immediately afterwards, trying to stick to my one statement plan and get to the 2nd issue that was bothering me. I went outside and tried to help Dan Tull explain to Gary that he was completely out of line and he needs to get over it, which led to Gary wanting to fight me.
So you see, I did stick up for Gary as far as the call goes, but I in no way supported him in his behavior. And I also stuck up for Danny and Evelyn, trying to convince Gary that she made a bad call, nothing personal, not trying to cheat him, and he needs to get over it.
Evelyn and Danny Dysart are among the best tournament directors in the business and I have always enjoyed them and their tournaments. We are all good. I do not believe for a second that Evelyn tried to cheat Gary. I think she made a judgement call and made a mistake in this case, but I still respect her. And I apologize for my "statement", which led to some other statements that weren't premeditated. They didn't deserve that. I have made mistakes too, we all do.
As for Gary and I, I too am embarrassed by his actions. I tried to let him know what the general consensus of everyone in the poolroom was as he was telling me he was going to post his story online. He said he would get thousands of hits, and he did. I knew this was going to further his embarrassment and I wasn't even aware of his punctuation!
Gary always makes a tournament more exciting when he is in it. But this time it was for all the wrong reasons. I hope it all passes and we learn something from it and move on.
By the way, in case someone asked you who won the tournament where Evelyn made a bad call and Gary went crazy, it was Skylar Woodward, so congrats to him!
Early on in this post it says that I stuck up for him and walked out in protest. I would like to clarify that. I was on down at the other end of the room during the late night tirade during his second match. It disgusted me to see what he did but I wasn't surprised either. I had been hearing about it all day and I knew how mad he was. I suggested to him that the best thing he can do is just go back and play good. I've known Gary for a long time - long enough to know that he doesn't listen to anyone so I knew I was wasting my breath. Sometimes his competitiveness cannot be controlled.
Following the tirade, after he went outside, most people around Evelyn's desk, including Evelyn and Danny, were smiling and laughing about it, which, looking back, is completely normal and to be expected. After all, that's what we do when Earl has his meltdowns.
I had been drinking with Gary to show my support for his situation since talking to him wouldn't work and I did agree that it was a bad call as it was explained to me. As a bar and poolroom owner and pool promoter myself, something inside of me (tequila) decided I didn't like the situation and wanted to do something about it. When I have a heated disagreement in my bar, it is my policy that no one says another word about it, we don't pick sides, we just drop it, period. That would have been awesome in this case.
I went down to Evelyn's desk and announced that I have one statement to say: "You shouldn't be down here smiling because these events were all set in motion because of a bad call that you made and that you never should have given him ball in hand when you didn't see the shot."
They didn't let me get out quite that fast, trying to defend their position, but almost immediately afterwards, trying to stick to my one statement plan and get to the 2nd issue that was bothering me. I went outside and tried to help Dan Tull explain to Gary that he was completely out of line and he needs to get over it, which led to Gary wanting to fight me.
So you see, I did stick up for Gary as far as the call goes, but I in no way supported him in his behavior. And I also stuck up for Danny and Evelyn, trying to convince Gary that she made a bad call, nothing personal, not trying to cheat him, and he needs to get over it.
Evelyn and Danny Dysart are among the best tournament directors in the business and I have always enjoyed them and their tournaments. We are all good. I do not believe for a second that Evelyn tried to cheat Gary. I think she made a judgement call and made a mistake in this case, but I still respect her. And I apologize for my "statement", which led to some other statements that weren't premeditated. They didn't deserve that. I have made mistakes too, we all do.
As for Gary and I, I too am embarrassed by his actions. I tried to let him know what the general consensus of everyone in the poolroom was as he was telling me he was going to post his story online. He said he would get thousands of hits, and he did. I knew this was going to further his embarrassment and I wasn't even aware of his punctuation!
Gary always makes a tournament more exciting when he is in it. But this time it was for all the wrong reasons. I hope it all passes and we learn something from it and move on.
By the way, in case someone asked you who won the tournament where Evelyn made a bad call and Gary went crazy, it was Skylar Woodward, so congrats to him!
Over matched
seven_7days,
I don't know you, and this is really none of my business, BUT (and with all due respect).....you're going up against Godzilla when it comes to knowing the nuances of any pool rule.
Just forget it and go to another thread! :idea:
You have NO chance here.
Jay, Scott Smith and Ken Shuman are the three best and most experienced refs probably in the WORLD. Which is the same as the universe, since there ain't no martian refs! :shakehead:
seven_7days,
I don't know you, and this is really none of my business, BUT (and with all due respect).....you're going up against Godzilla when it comes to knowing the nuances of any pool rule.
Just forget it and go to another thread! :idea:
You have NO chance here.
Jay, Scott Smith and Ken Shuman are the three best and most experienced refs probably in the WORLD. Which is the same as the universe, since there ain't no martian refs! :shakehead:
no doubt she knows Joey, but I bet she has known Gary even longer!!
Just got back from Shooters
Word is:
Gary is barred from the Midwest 9 ball tour events anywhere and Shooters in Olathe?
I think perhaps with time, this may be allowed to blow over. I hope so, Gary is a great pool player and makes every event more exciting.
I also noticed Darren Everett beat my horse Whitey Walker hill-hill, then Darren crushed Chip Compton 9-2.
Word is:
Gary is barred from the Midwest 9 ball tour events anywhere and Shooters in Olathe?
I think perhaps with time, this may be allowed to blow over. I hope so, Gary is a great pool player and makes every event more exciting.
I also noticed Darren Everett beat my horse Whitey Walker hill-hill, then Darren crushed Chip Compton 9-2.