OB on the rail & CIT?

L

LAMas

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I believe that CIT happens immediately when the CB strikes the OB. I notice this when the OB is on the rail and if I aim normally, the OB touches the rail on its way to the intended pocket.

I can compensate for this if I intentially cut it a bit thinner or apply a bit of outside english. Outside english neutralizes the CIT.

If I need to get shape with inside english, do I aim a bit thinner?

Be well.
 
LAMas said:
I believe that CIT happens immediately when the CB strikes the OB. I notice this when the OB is on the rail and if I aim normally, the OB touches the rail on its way to the intended pocket.

I can compensate for this if I intentially cut it a bit thinner or apply a bit of outside english. Outside english neutralizes the CIT.

If I need to get shape with inside english, do I aim a bit thinner?

Be well.
Click to expand...
Aim like you'd aim if the rail wasn't there.

pj
chgo
 
careful

You need to be careful. If you hit inside english and hit the rail before the ball the tangent line changes and your cue ball will come directly across the table, hit the opposite rail and spin back down table opening the angle.
 
LAMas said:
I believe that CIT happens immediately when the CB strikes the OB. I notice this when the OB is on the rail and if I aim normally, the OB touches the rail on its way to the intended pocket.

I can compensate for this if I intentially cut it a bit thinner or apply a bit of outside english. Outside english neutralizes the CIT.

If I need to get shape with inside english, do I aim a bit thinner?

Be well.
Click to expand...

Same with any other shot. If you're swerving it in, aim thinner; if you're squirting it in, aim thicker. Thinking in those terms and you'll quit thinking about CIT. Throw is normally the least of the concerns.


Freddie <~~~ throws CIT out the window
 
I basically agree w/ Corneman. I shoot it both ways depending on what I want the cue ball to do. However I 'feel' that the inside english gives U a bit more margin for error as it is 'trowing' the OB back toward the pocket on a SLIGHT mis-hit. You can actually hit the rail a little first (if not hit TOO softly) & still make the shot. Try it both ways & then do what works best for you.
 
The way I do it, I shoot it firm.... slightly into the rail first. Best way I can describe it, the cue ball compresses into the rail first, and spins into the object ball on the rebound. Works well on short CB to OB distances. Still seems odd that it works, but it does(for me).





"They dont think it be like it is, but it do."

-Oscar Gamble (NY Yankees, 1977)
 
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LAMas said:
I believe that CIT happens immediately when the CB strikes the OB. I notice this when the OB is on the rail and if I aim normally, the OB touches the rail on its way to the intended pocket.

I can compensate for this if I intentially cut it a bit thinner or apply a bit of outside english. Outside english neutralizes the CIT.

If I need to get shape with inside english, do I aim a bit thinner?

Be well.
Click to expand...
LaMas,

Check out the following resource page:

It contains several videos and lots of detailed (and useful) info on this topic.

Enjoy,
Dave
 
dr_dave said:
LaMas,

Check out the following resource page:

It contains several videos and lots of detailed (and useful) info on this topic.

Enjoy,
Dave
Click to expand...

Thanks,
I saw and understand that. I was hoping to see a slow motion close up to show that there could be, with stun english, cling, if that is a component, with CIT where the OB clings to the CB, moving it forward, for an instant before the OB starts rolling...thus moving it into the rail and not along it.

Your vid shows that the OB travels in a straight line after impact...does the OB "curve" a bit?
 
LAMas said:
Thanks,
I saw and understand that. I was hoping to see a slow motion close up to show that there could be, with stun english, cling, if that is a component, with CIT where the OB clings to the CB, moving it forward, for an instant before the OB starts rolling...thus moving it into the rail and not along it.
Click to expand...
Throw can happen with any shot (see NV B.86 - Cut-induced throw (CIT) and spin-induced throw (SIT), from VEPS IV), rail cut shots included. With slow stun, the OB can be thrown into the cushion quite a bit (and even more with clingy conditions) if throw isn't compensated for in the aim (e.g., by aiming a little thinner, resulting in the CB hitting and compressing the cushion some before contacting the OB). The HSV clips cited on my rail cut shot resource page show examples of this. Also, a good example of the throw-into-the-cushion effect is the following classic proposition shot:

LAMas said:
Your vid shows that the OB travels in a straight line after impact...does the OB "curve" a bit?
Click to expand...
Object balls don't curve. See:

Although, as mentioned above, if one's aim isn't compensated for throw, OBs can get driven into the cushion and bounce away from the rail.

I hope that stuff helps,
Dave
 
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Hi pool-a-holics,

on EVERY SINGLE SHOT where you have not a dead-straight in shot CIT will be *there*. On some angles it will be not that dramatic- from a specified angle on, the throw is *far more clearly to see*.

But was always is sure:
the softer you shoot, the more it throws-
the harder you shoot, the less it will be thrown.

Best example to show this at the table is if you use frozen balls-exactly the same phenomen.

lg
Ingo
 
Ratta said:
on EVERY SINGLE SHOT where you have not a dead-straight in shot CIT will be *there*.
Click to expand...
... unless you use a gearing amount of outside English, in which case there is absolutely no throw whatsoever.

Ratta said:
On some angles it will be not that dramatic- from a specified angle on, the throw is *far more clearly to see*.

But was always is sure:
the softer you shoot, the more it throws-
the harder you shoot, the less it will be thrown.
Click to expand...
FYI to those interested, many useful "rules of thumb" for throw effects can be found here (see items 15-35 in the effects list below the videos and illustrations):

Ratta said:
Best example to show this at the table is if you use frozen balls-exactly the same phenomen.
Click to expand...
Agreed. FYI, good demos of this can be found in this video:

Regards,
Dave
 
robsnotes4u...Tangent lines do not change. Follow or draw on the CB will cause the CB to curve after collision with the OB. Sidespin has no effect on the directional path (unless top or bottom are added), after collision, until it hits the rail. When the OB is frozen on the rail, the CB always strikes the rail slightly first (no such thing as 'ball and rail at the same time'), whether sidespin is applied or not (unless, of course, you hit the OB first, in which case the OB probably will not be pocketed). I know what you meant, but I just wanted to clarify the terminology for those who might not.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

robsnotes4u said:
You need to be careful. If you hit inside english and hit the rail before the ball the tangent line changes and your cue ball will come directly across the table, hit the opposite rail and spin back down table opening the angle.
Click to expand...
 
LAMas...CIT and cling are the same thing. What is "stun english"?

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

LAMas said:
Thanks,
I saw and understand that. I was hoping to see a slow motion close up to show that there could be, with stun english, cling, if that is a component, with CIT where the OB clings to the CB, moving it forward, for an instant before the OB starts rolling...thus moving it into the rail and not along it.

Your vid shows that the OB travels in a straight line after impact...does the OB "curve" a bit?
Click to expand...
 
Scott Lee said:
LAMas...CIT and cling are the same thing.
Click to expand...
Actually, cling usually refers only to an excessive amount of CIT. Here are pertinent definitions from my online glossary:
cling: excessive friction and throw caused by non-ideal surface conditions at the point of contact between two balls (e.g., a chalk smudge).

cut-induced throw (CIT): throw caused by sliding friction between the cue ball and the object ball.

throw: object ball motion away from the impact line (line of centers) due to relative sideways sliding motion between the cue ball and object ball caused by sidespin or a cut angle.​

CIT and/or SIT occur on all shots that don't have a gearing amount of outside English. Cling only happens in certain situations (e.g., when a chalk smudge appears at the CB-OB contact point). Cling is more common with old, dirty, and beat-up balls.

Regards,
Dave
 
LAMas said:
... with CIT where the OB clings to the CB, moving it forward, for an instant before the OB starts rolling. ...
Click to expand...
To the best of my knowledge there is never any "cling to" involved in normal shots. The time for a ball-ball collision is about 1/5 of a millisecond which is too fast for most high-speed cameras to see a beginning, middle and end of contact.

Jack Koehler has a long section in his "Science" book about balls frozen on cushions that you may also find interesting.
 
dr_dave said:
Actually, cling usually refers only to an excessive amount of CIT. Here are pertinent definitions from my online glossary:
cling: excessive friction and throw caused by non-ideal surface conditions at the point of contact between two balls (e.g., a chalk smudge).

cut-induced throw (CIT): throw caused by sliding friction between the cue ball and the object ball.

throw: object ball motion away from the impact line (line of centers) due to relative sideways sliding motion between the cue ball and object ball caused by sidespin or a cut angle.​
Click to expand...

Interestingly, misses due to normal CIT are often mistakenly blamed on cling/skid, even among top players. I've noticed this to happen most often for slower stun shots around 1/2-ball hit.

I suspect it's because of the CIT cut angle deviation magnitude (typically 4-6 degrees depending on conditions) combined with the non-linear nature of CIT in that range. That pesky peak around 1/2-ball for CIT is so counter-intuitive that it even um, throws off the HAMB champions, especially on the tighter or larger (10ft) equipment where more precision is required.

Robert
 
Robert Raiford said:
Interestingly, misses due to normal CIT are often mistakenly blamed on cling/skid, even among top players. I've noticed this to happen most often for slower stun shots around 1/2-ball hit.
Click to expand...
I agree 100%! I see it quite often.

Regards,
Dave
 
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