Where da teachers..... TAT questions. ;)

RRfireblade

RRfireblade

Grammer Are For Stupids
Silver Member
TAT, yea I just made that up. Figured everyone else is just making stuff up so why not me.

Anyway....

That is not an aim question persay , more of a physiological one and I'm curious if/how this has been address in pool.

TAT= Total Aim Time.

I do alot of other activities where aiming is not governed by hard mechanical means, AKA sights. Most require a combination of alignment and process to establish an aim , much like pool. It has been shown in some of these activities that due to how your mind creates the sight picture, assembles the image and interprets it etc, that your mind will continue to 'work' the image and continually make corrections as it sees fit. Kind of how optical illiusions work where sometimes you can't see it but then you can and as you continue to look , the image often moves and/or changes and/or flip flops back and forth etc. That kind of thing. There are technical details in there that's not really the point but that the background of my questions.

Which is.....

Is there a maximum period of time a person should spend in the aiming process before the current sight picture becomes say 'polluted' and you should back off, shake it off and start your PSR again?

If so, what kind of intervals might we be talking about?

Do you think that it's not applicable in this case or at all?

TIA.



(If this thread is too "aim-ie" ) than feel free to move it to the depths of hell. ;)

Thanks.
 
I don't know about others, but when I am aiming, if I don't feel right in the first 5-8 seconds of going from cueball to object ball (about 3-4 warm up strokes) I get up and re-start the stance/aim procedure.

If I don't, I usually miss or do something silly with position. Usually the longer times happens when there are 2 ways to play a shot, say can go behind a ball or in front of it for position for the next shot. If I don't get up, I got right at the ball I'm trying to avoid.
 
Your TAT should be in direct relationship to your PSR and SLD and Creativty. In fact, the formula is as follows:

TAT = (PSR/SLD*SLD)/2C

If you forget, you can tattoo it on the back of your shooting hand like I do.
 
I was going to give you two extremes to look at.

Charlie Williams
Earl Strickland

Most of us are in the middle.
 
Aiming time?

RRfireblade said:
TAT, yea I just made that up. Figured everyone else is just making stuff up so why not me.

Anyway....

That is not an aim question persay , more of a physiological one and I'm curious if/how this has been address in pool.

TAT= Total Aim Time.

I do alot of other activities where aiming is not governed by hard mechanical means, AKA sights. Most require a combination of alignment and process to establish an aim , much like pool. It has been shown in some of these activities that due to how your mind creates the sight picture, assembles the image and interprets it etc, that your mind will continue to 'work' the image and continually make corrections as it sees fit. Kind of how optical illiusions work where sometimes you can't see it but then you can and as you continue to look , the image often moves and/or changes and/or flip flops back and forth etc. That kind of thing. There are technical details in there that's not really the point but that the background of my questions.

Which is.....

Is there a maximum period of time a person should spend in the aiming process before the current sight picture becomes say 'polluted' and you should back off, shake it off and start your PSR again?

If so, what kind of intervals might we be talking about?

Do you think that it's not applicable in this case or at all?

TIA.



(If this thread is too "aim-ie" ) than feel free to move it to the depths of hell. ;)

Thanks.
Click to expand...

Excellent question! I believe there is a "maximum" aiming time, but it really can't be pinned down because of all the variables among players. Eyesight is a huge part of this, as is executing each shot in the proper sequence. I assume you're not confusing aiming with thinking while you're aiming. I often do a little aiming during shot selection, but when my thinking's done, and I'm in the set position, it takes a few seconds for my eyes tune in, and typically another few seconds before I fire. Longer shots take me longer to sight in.

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor
 
“Quiet Eye” Is The Key To Making The Shot, Says UF Sports Researcher."

http://news.ufl.edu/1999/06/15/pool/

Probably worth a read. The original research is on line if you search for it. Use "Quiet Eye" as a search term. It has been awhile since I read the original research but as I remember the dwell time was significantly longer when making versus missing a shot.
 
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JoeW said:
“Quiet Eye” Is The Key To Making The Shot, Says UF Sports Researcher."

http://news.ufl.edu/1999/06/15/pool/

Probably worth a read. The original research is on line if you search for it. Use "Quiet Eye" as a search term.
Click to expand...

This is a great study and anyone interested should find out as much as they can about it. You don't want your eyes bouncing back and forth quickly your poor brain can't keep up!
 
RRfireblade...Glad you asked! Actually there are three checklists (we call them PSR's), all of which figure in the aiming process. The first one is somewhere between 30-45 seconds long (we call it "Think"), done in the 'standing' position. This is where the decision-making process begins...which is then narrowed down the shot at hand. This is also where the aiming process begins. Then there is what happens once you've decided what to, and you start to step into the shot (aiming is still part of this sequence, which lasts 2-3 seconds, and is the 2nd PSR..."See". The third PSR (which we call "Do"), is the 10-12 seconds after your bridge hand hits the cloth. During this time aiming decisions are confirmed (not changed), and you go into your shooting routine. If you're down on the table for more than about 12 seconds, chances increase dramatically that you will make some kind of error. It may be an alignment error, a recognition error, or a delivery error. So, all told, the aiming process, in complete, only lasts about a minute for most players. Think-See-Do...Think before shooting; shoot without thinking! Works every time!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

RRfireblade said:
TAT, yea I just made that up. Figured everyone else is just making stuff up so why not me.

Anyway....

That is not an aim question persay , more of a physiological one and I'm curious if/how this has been address in pool.

TAT= Total Aim Time.

I do alot of other activities where aiming is not governed by hard mechanical means, AKA sights. Most require a combination of alignment and process to establish an aim , much like pool. It has been shown in some of these activities that due to how your mind creates the sight picture, assembles the image and interprets it etc, that your mind will continue to 'work' the image and continually make corrections as it sees fit. Kind of how optical illiusions work where sometimes you can't see it but then you can and as you continue to look , the image often moves and/or changes and/or flip flops back and forth etc. That kind of thing. There are technical details in there that's not really the point but that the background of my questions.

Which is.....

Is there a maximum period of time a person should spend in the aiming process before the current sight picture becomes say 'polluted' and you should back off, shake it off and start your PSR again?

If so, what kind of intervals might we be talking about?

Do you think that it's not applicable in this case or at all?

TIA.



(If this thread is too "aim-ie" ) than feel free to move it to the depths of hell. ;)

Thanks.
Click to expand...
 
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Well the pool study is some what flawed,, he took highly skilled players and pinned them against casual players a better test would be players who play the same amount yet one is much better ,,

This is straight from the sports shrink,, your eyes focus best breathing out , your brain works best for shooting when it spends minamial time on the thinking side while down on the shot so you incorperate the 2 ,,
for me thats 2 breathing cycles ,in out ,in out, shoot , if Im not locked in at that point I get up set back down and do it again ,, learnng this has brought my game up quite a bit knocking off several players I have never beat before so thier must be something to it



1
 
The study is what is often referred to as an individual differences study. How are “experienced” players different from “less experienced” players. It was found that experienced players spent more time looking at the object ball. They also made more balls.

The author did go beyond the basic individuals differences and found that experienced players spent more dwell time on shots they made than on shots they missed. These findings seem to have been reasonably well accepted across several different sports where hand eye coordination and aiming are important.
 
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JoeW said:
The study is what is often referred to as an individual differences study. How are “experienced” players different from “less experienced” players. It was found that experienced players spent more time looking at the object ball. They also made more balls.

The author did go beyond the basic individuals differences and found that experienced players spent more dwell time on shots they made than on shots they missed. These findings seem to have been reasonably well accepted across several different sports where hand eye coordination and aiming are important.
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How would he explain fast shooters such as Rocket Ronnie O'sullivin or the Texas Tornado,, better players have better skills across the board ,,so its not a apples to apples compairison,,


1
 
RRfireblade said:
TAT,
Is there a maximum period of time a person should spend in the aiming process before the current sight picture becomes say 'polluted' and you should back off, shake it off and start your PSR again?

If so, what kind of intervals might we be talking about?

Do you think that it's not applicable in this case or at all?

TIA.

Thanks.
Click to expand...

In my opinion. Alex Pagulayan is the most accurate shot maker, he takes time to aim, and his stroke is short (for long shots) which increase accuracy.

If you look at the exact aim before you go down, and not take any time to aim, just couple of warm up strokes and nice follow through, i will be highly surprised if you miss by much. There is room for errors.
 
one stroke said:
How would he explain fast shooters such as Rocket Ronnie O'sullivin or the Texas Tornado,, better players have better skills across the board ,,so its not a apples to apples compairison,,
1
Click to expand...

There is Ronnie O'Sullivan and then there is the rest of us.

BTW on difficult shots I think (don't know) that O'Sulivan too spends relatively more time looking at the aim lines. I'll have to go watch one of his videos.
 
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JoeW said:
There is Ronnie O'Sullivin and then there is the rest of us.

BTW on difficult shots I think (don't know) that O'Sulivin too spends relatively more time looking at the aim lines. I'll have to go watch one of his videos.
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Ronnie O'Sullivin is the greatest shot makers ever, However snooker is different game than pool, most shots are made with about 3-5 diamonds apart, and with common angle cuts, which makes aim a little easier, occasionally they have long shots of which most fail the attempts. In pool, long shots in 9 or 10 ball game are too often key shots.
 
Scott Lee said:
....So, all told, the aiming process, in complete, only lasts about a minute for most players. Think-See-Do...Think before shooting; shoot without thinking! Works every time!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
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1 minute is an awful long time to aim. I'm having a hard time processing that.

As someone that pays close attention to what you have to say since you have added so much useful information to this forum, I have to wonder if you have an entirely different concept of time than I do. :)

As an example, in the past you mentioned that Buddy Hall has a 3-4 second back stroke pause (that's a L-O-N-G pause). I bet he doesn't pause for more than a second. (Actual quote here)

Anyway, I would think taking a minute to aim each and every shot would be detrimental to a player. Taking this long to shoot would make the game miserably mechanical. I think it shouldn't take more than 5-10 seconds to aim. That's just my opinion though.
 
BasementDweller said:
1 minute is an awful long time to aim. I'm having a hard time processing that.

As someone that pays close attention to what you have to say since you have added so much useful information to this forum, I have to wonder if you have an entirely different concept of time than I do. :)

As an example, in the past you mentioned that Buddy Hall has a 3-4 second back stroke pause (that's a L-O-N-G pause). I bet he doesn't pause for more than a second. (Actual quote here)

Anyway, I would think taking a minute to aim each and every shot would be detrimental to a player. Taking this long to shoot would make the game miserably mechanical. I think it shouldn't take more than 5-10 seconds to aim. That's just my opinion though.
Click to expand...

I think the 1 minute of Scott's think-see-do starts with with the alignment/sighting process while standing prior to getting down on the shot.

Great discussion so far, lots to consider. Thanks.
 
RRfireblade said:
I think the 1 minute of Scott's think-see-do starts with with the alignment/sighting process while standing prior to getting down on the shot.

Great discussion so far, lots to consider. Thanks.
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I agree its the total time. My visit to the sports shrink confirms this there is a reason for the saying study long study wrong u do not want to be over the ball to long however you can get to fast each player is differant its all in your hard wiring if you are a slow methotical thinker your pace should co inside with that if your thinking is fast then your pool game will be at a quicker pace on the flip side you can be to fast also but you can't change who you are so you play at what's a comfortible for you
But when thinking is done and your down on the ball less equales more


1
 
Chris...We're talking about average poolplayers, not elite pros...and it's UP to a minute (part of the reason why we have a 60 second shot clock for amateurs and a 30 second shot clock for pros). Many of us process, aim and shoot much more quickly. What I described is how you can teach yourself to be consistent in what you do...and how aiming is certainly a part of that. Buddy is nowhere near 1 second on his backswing pause. Look at Allison or Karen, and then look at Buddy. They are each about 1 second. Buddy is much longer.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

BasementDweller said:
1 minute is an awful long time to aim. I'm having a hard time processing that.

As someone that pays close attention to what you have to say since you have added so much useful information to this forum, I have to wonder if you have an entirely different concept of time than I do. :)

As an example, in the past you mentioned that Buddy Hall has a 3-4 second back stroke pause (that's a L-O-N-G pause). I bet he doesn't pause for more than a second. (Actual quote here)

Anyway, I would think taking a minute to aim each and every shot would be detrimental to a player. Taking this long to shoot would make the game miserably mechanical. I think it shouldn't take more than 5-10 seconds to aim. That's just my opinion though.
Click to expand...
 
one stroke...I agree, we are all different. We think differently, learn differently, perceive differently, and are built differently...definitely no one-size-fits-all in pool. One of the key elements is to do things the SAME way, all the time, on every shot...especially under pressure (which is what we teach our students how to teach themselves to do...and to be able to evaluate results and make error corrections on the fly!). That's one of the factors that separate pros from amateurs.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

one stroke said:
I agree its the total time. My visit to the sports shrink confirms this there is a reason for the saying study long study wrong u do not want to be over the ball to long however you can get to fast each player is differant its all in your hard wiring if you are a slow methotical thinker your pace should co inside with that if your thinking is fast then your pool game will be at a quicker pace on the flip side you can be to fast also but you can't change who you are so you play at what's a comfortible for you
But when thinking is done and your down on the ball less equales more


1
Click to expand...
 
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