John Schmidt's and Corey Deuel's comments on aiming systems

I think there's a pretty simple way to end this debate.

Take two low ranked players (players that can't run more than 3 balls). Give each of them lessons on fundamentals (stance, grip, stroke, etc.), a few shot making drills, and a few lessons on positional play.

Teach one of them ONE aiming system, like Pro One or SEE. Tell the other person to figure it out on there own.

Make sure each player has the same amount of practice time over a 3 month period; say 2-3 hours a day. After that, let them play each other.
 
You need more than an N=1 in each group to have any statistically significant results.






I think there's a pretty simple way to end this debate.

Take two low ranked players (players that can't run more than 3 balls). Give each of them lessons on fundamentals (stance, grip, stroke, etc.), a few shot making drills, and a few lessons on positional play.

Teach one of them ONE aiming system, like Pro One or SEE. Tell the other person to figure it out on there own.

Make sure each player has the same amount of practice time over a 3 month period; say 2-3 hours a day. After that, let them play each other.
 
I know. The subtle point I was making is that the novice with the aiming system should be much better than the player with no aiming system, provided they both have equal practice and practice the same drills.

Any player on here that bashes aiming systems is being stubborn. Unless you're a world class player, it's foolish to think you can't get some benefit out of least learning a system.

It just reminds me of the old Sega (non-aiming system) vs. Super Nintendo (aiming system) debate. You spend years of your childhood playing Sega, and saying how amazing Sonic the Hedgehog (HAMB) is, and never really giving Super Nintendo a chance. Then one night you stay over at friend's house, and he has a Super Nintendo, and you get your first taste of Super Mario World (Pro One). That's when you say, "Hey, this really isn't that bad."
 
Anyone ask you, "Do you want to play for the table time?"
At $10.00/hr it's like gambling and you better win and better still, take all of the shots.

For those of us that don't have their own table, HAMB will cost a small fortune, anything that can lessen that million balls is welcome.
 
Anyone ask you, "Do you want to play for the table time?"
At $10.00/hr it's like gambling and you better win and better still, take all of the shots.

For those of us that don't have their own table, HAMB will cost a small fortune, anything that can lessen that million balls is welcome.

At $10 per hour, HAMB would cost about $55,000 if you average 20 sec. per shot, or about $83,000 if you average 30 sec. per shot.:smile:
 
I know. The subtle point I was making is that the novice with the aiming system should be much better than the player with no aiming system, provided they both have equal practice and practice the same drills.

Any player on here that bashes aiming systems is being stubborn. Unless you're a world class player, it's foolish to think you can't get some benefit out of least learning a system.

It just reminds me of the old Sega (non-aiming system) vs. Super Nintendo (aiming system) debate. You spend years of your childhood playing Sega, and saying how amazing Sonic the Hedgehog (HAMB) is, and never really giving Super Nintendo a chance. Then one night you stay over at friend's house, and he has a Super Nintendo, and you get your first taste of Super Mario World (Pro One). That's when you say, "Hey, this really isn't that bad."

BeiberLvr:

We know you haven't been on these forums long, but one thing you may want to know is that the type of outlandish pitch you're giving above, is CLASSIC -- and is exactly what stokes the flames in these aiming threads.

Discussion of aiming / aiming systems is great -- many of us (including myself) enjoy reading and learning. Just lay off the Vince Offer-ish "Slap-chop" pitches.

Giving you this FYI and the benefit of the doubt,
-Sean
 
I think there's a pretty simple way to end this debate.

Take two low ranked players (players that can't run more than 3 balls). Give each of them lessons on fundamentals (stance, grip, stroke, etc.), a few shot making drills, and a few lessons on positional play.

Teach one of them ONE aiming system, like Pro One or SEE. Tell the other person to figure it out on there own.

Make sure each player has the same amount of practice time over a 3 month period; say 2-3 hours a day. After that, let them play each other.
The choice isn't between an aiming system or nothing. There's lots to learn about aiming besides systems, and many ways to learn it.

pj
chgo
 
I know. The subtle point I was making is that the novice with the aiming system should be much better than the player with no aiming system, provided they both have equal practice and practice the same drills.

Any player on here that bashes aiming systems is being stubborn. Unless you're a world class player, it's foolish to think you can't get some benefit out of least learning a system.

It just reminds me of the old Sega (non-aiming system) vs. Super Nintendo (aiming system) debate. You spend years of your childhood playing Sega, and saying how amazing Sonic the Hedgehog (HAMB) is, and never really giving Super Nintendo a chance. Then one night you stay over at friend's house, and he has a Super Nintendo, and you get your first taste of Super Mario World (Pro One). That's when you say, "Hey, this really isn't that bad."

Just for the record, the debate has never been about aiming systems vs. non-aiming systems. The debate has been about whether or not any single aiming system is superior to all other aiming systems, and whether or not there exists any single aiming system that can eliminate the need to - or even drastically reduce the need to - "hit a million balls." To those questions, there are some who say, "Yea, such a system exists!" and there are others who say, "Nay, no such system exists!"

Roger
 
Just for the record, the debate has never been about aiming systems vs. non-aiming systems. The debate has been about whether or not any single aiming system is superior to all other aiming systems, and whether or not there exists any single aiming system that can eliminate the need to - or even drastically reduce the need to - "hit a million balls." To those questions, there are some who say, "Yea, such a system exists!" and there are others who say, "Nay, no such system exists!"

Roger

there is no system to reduce the need to HAMB, as pool players we should have the desire to HAMB. Useing PRO-ONE just means we make a higher percentage of those million balls.
 
Useing PRO-ONE just means we make a higher percentage of those million balls.
Different aiming systems may work better for different people.

Since there have been no comparative test studies between different aiming systems, your comment that Pro-one shooters make a higher percentage of shots is completely unsubstantiated.
 
Just for the record, the debate has never been about aiming systems vs. non-aiming systems. The debate has been about whether or not any single aiming system is superior to all other aiming systems, and whether or not there exists any single aiming system that can eliminate the need to - or even drastically reduce the need to - "hit a million balls." To those questions, there are some who say, "Yea, such a system exists!" and there are others who say, "Nay, no such system exists!"

Roger

I don't think that's been the debate at all -- certainly not the debate you stated in your articles.

I think the debate has been whether or not CTE was "snake oil" or "nothing but marketing" as you so eloquently put in your ground-breaking three part series. Now that your famous conclusion was clearly wrong, now you say the debate was something totally different than what you had previously stated. :rolleyes:

You guys keep chirping about "HAMB" as if it's a method or technique or something. It's merely a destination. I've seen tons of players who played their entire life and probably hit multiple million balls and they STILL suck. HAMB has ZERO RELEVANCE in being a great player. ZERO. Whoever came up with that "concept" is an idiot savant player or an internet forum idiot - hard to say which.

I can hit a million golf balls and that doesn't mean I'm tearing up the PGA tour nor does it mean I'd break 80--- some people don't have it. Repetition is not linearly proportional to success. More than likely, the last 300,000 balls of the HAMB will likely present the player at the same speed assuming no instruction/coaching has taken place. People plateau --- all people plateau. It's as certain as death.

So, this "HAMB" thing being a "goal" makes about as much sense as your conclusion in part III of your series. I've also seen people who could play with probably less than 10,000 balls. Hell, Hopkins ran either 13 or 15 balls the very first time he picked a cue up (literally, the very first time). I think he ran his first 100 at age 13 or something -- no HAMB there.

That Bieber guy was lambasted earlier in the thread but he was correct nonetheless. I'd put my money where my mouth is that I can take 3 APA level 2s and let Roger Long take 3 APA level 2s and see which group has the biggest delta in improvement on a pre-determined shot-test (something like Colenso's).

People tend to skirt the issue and say that doesn't prove anything but it totally does. I could prob take his group afterwards and improve their score a good bit with my info. He prob couldn't show my group anything because as they say -- you can't put the genie back in the snake oil bottle.

p.s. I don't think the above is an infomercial. I'm merely saying I REALLY like my chances at something like that. Heck, we don't even have to bet--- we can just do it for fun and the loser has to upload the avatar of the winner's choice for a month or two. Maybe at the next BCA Vegas show? Even if my team dumps me, I'd swap out Sgt. Hartman w/ pride.
 
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Different aiming systems may work better for different people.

Since there have been no comparative test studies between different aiming systems, your comment that Pro-one shooters make a higher percentage of shots is completely unsubstantiated.

It's great you have an opinion but the 25 or so users of pro-one that I personally know have experienced a noticable increase in the amount of balls dropping in the pockets.
 
Spidey:
I'd put my money where my mouth is that I can take 3 APA level 2s and let Roger Long take 3 APA level 2s and see which group has the biggest delta in improvement on a pre-determined shot-test (something like Colenso's).
Are you saying any player would learn aiming faster with a pivot system than without?

pj
chgo
 
It's great you have an opinion but the 25 or so users of pro-one that I personally know have experienced a noticable increase in the amount of balls dropping in the pockets.
LOL. Anecdotal evidence such as what you offer doesn't cut it. That would be like me saying that the 25 or so users of ghost ball aiming that I know personally have experienced a noticeable increase in the amount of balls dropping in the pockets.

Here's a fact you can't refute: Mike Dechaine, a ghost ball aiming user, just beat a strong field of pros like Rodney Morris and Shawn Putnam, to win the Turning Stone Classic.

If you want to determine which aiming system is the best, you really need to perform a controlled study which will take into account numerous variables that can affect the outcome of the test.
 
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Are you saying any player would learn aiming faster with a pivot system than without?

pj
chgo

I'm saying if I had three random bad players for an hour they'd improve more than Roger's three random bad players.

If I was limited to pivot systems and Roger was limited to contact points, ghost ball, back of ball, double the distance... I'd feel as though I had a lock.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2
 
And in Pat's words you are over generalizing when it works for you too.

In your own words Mike Dechaine said: "When asked what aiming systems he uses, Dechaine replied: "Three methods. A equal pieces, I use my tip and a simple ghost ball method.""

You don't know WHAT aiming system he uses on all shots (if just one of the three he mentioned at all). When you open up this door the next logical step is for someone to cite the recent tourney successes of known pivot aimers.

I will agree with you that a controlled study is where it is at. However, when dealing with human learning, anecdotal evidence is all we have due to the fact that a study has not or cannot be done. With that said you cannot dismiss anecdotal evidence entirely.


LOL. Anecdotal evidence such as what you offer doesn't cut it. That would be like me saying that the 25 or so users of ghost ball aiming that I know personally have experienced a noticeable increase in the amount of balls dropping in the pockets.

Here's a fact you can't refute: Mike Dechaine, a ghost ball aiming user, just beat a strong field of pros like Rodney Morris and Shawn Putnam, to win the Turning Stone Classic.

If you want to determine which aiming system is the best, you really need to perform a controlled study which will take into account numerous variables that can affect the outcome of the test.
 
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Just for the record, the debate has never been about aiming systems vs. non-aiming systems. The debate has been about whether or not any single aiming system is superior to all other aiming systems, and whether or not there exists any single aiming system that can eliminate the need to - or even drastically reduce the need to - "hit a million balls." To those questions, there are some who say, "Yea, such a system exists!" and there are others who say, "Nay, no such system exists!"

Roger

That's a pretty stupid debate then. The best aiming system is clearly what works best for the individual.
 
I'm saying if I had three random bad players for an hour they'd improve more than Roger's three random bad players.

If I was limited to pivot systems and Roger was limited to contact points, ghost ball, back of ball, double the distance... I'd feel as though I had a lock.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

Three? You would need to have more like thirty subjects to make such a study meaningful. Furthermore, their other fundamentals would have to be matched as equal prior to introducing the aiming technique AND remain unchanged throughout the study. Otherwise it would be impossible to determine whether positive outcomes were due to the improvement in aiming, or other fundamentals.

It is not by mistake that Stan's courses address stroke mechanics prior to introduction of aiming.

If you want to examine the effects of aiming, you will need populations whose strokes have been corrected and are at an equal level. But guess what? With good fundamentals, they are no longer skill level 2 or 3, and the incremental improvement with subsequent aiming correction is likely to be moderate, at best.
 
LOL. Anecdotal evidence such as what you offer doesn't cut it. That would be like me saying that the 25 or so users of ghost ball aiming that I know personally have experienced a noticeable increase in the amount of balls dropping in the pockets.

Here's a fact you can't refute: Mike Dechaine, a ghost ball aiming user, just beat a strong field of pros like Rodney Morris and Shawn Putnam, to win the Turning Stone Classic.

If you want to determine which aiming system is the best, you really need to perform a controlled study which will take into account numerous variables that can affect the outcome of the test.

NO NO No The real facts are SVB has admitted to using an aiming system. Efren uses centers and edges ( guess what that means ). There will never be a controlled study done so you might as well stick your last paragraph up your A.S.S.
 
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