Question about using BHE

Ratta said:
Well my friend- that s for sure something *how you imagine or feel* :)

Like PJ said, several guys using this *method*. And it works of course, too. Same principle just that you *kind of pivoting while your last stroke*. If you make it oldschooled way or like PJ said *while executing* will bring the same effect. But it s hard to discuss, what is easier or not. In my personal opinion the *static* way, to first sign up *like you would use no english* and then use BHE and pivot is easier.
lg
Ingo
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Play around with it, you my find some uses for it on certain type of shots.

I dont mind bhe but turning the cue off the sighting line isnt what I like doing.

Try to give you some green but it said you already had a stock pile of it.
Thanks
 
Backhand English (BHE) are aim-and-pivot methods used to adjust one's aim for squirt.(BHE) Works best with higher squirt cues where the "pivot point" is somewhere near the bridge. But you'll almost invariably have to make some small additional aim adjustment "by feel"
 
kaylaemarx said:
Backhand English (BHE) are aim-and-pivot methods used to adjust one's aim for squirt.(BHE) Works best with higher squirt cues where the "pivot point" is somewhere near the bridge. But you'll almost invariably have to make some small additional aim adjustment "by feel"
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This is true of all "mechanical" methods for both squirt compensation and aiming. Some (maybe a lot of) fine-tuning by "feel" is just about always needed. Many users of these "mechanical" methods believe that, because the by-feel adjustments are made subconsciously, the "mechanical" methods are perfectly accurate without any adjusting - logic and geometry tell us otherwise.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Nice out, Efren... including the swipe-stroke.

But I don't think there's anything you can do with a swiping motion that you couldn't do by lining up at the "swipe angle" and stroking straight.

pj
chgo
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1. For one example, you can swing extremely fast and hard for an object ball along the cushion and still generate surprising amounts of english with the cue ball.

2. The cue ball "doesn't care" about the tip impact angle is what some say, but a swiping stroke sends a diagonally-turned cue that has mostly forward momentum into the ball, providing the thrust of "parallel english" with the excellent spin of "pivot english" and trumping both for accuracy and deflection.

Having said that, swiping BHE has limited use for me as I play very few shots with extreme amounts of english and speed.
 
Me:
I don't think there's anything you can do with a swiping motion that you couldn't do by lining up at the "swipe angle" and stroking straight.
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BilliardsAbout:
1. For one example, you can swing extremely fast and hard for an object ball along the cushion and still generate surprising amounts of english with the cue ball.
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Huh?

2. ...a swiping stroke sends a diagonally-turned cue that has mostly forward momentum into the ball, providing the thrust of "parallel english" with the excellent spin of "pivot english" and trumping both for accuracy and deflection.
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Nonsense.

"Thrust" and spin aren't things that can be manipulated separately; they're both created by a single force applied in a single direction by the tip hitting the ball from a certain angle. Creating that angle by "swiping" your stroke is identical with lining up at that angle and stroking straight - except less accurate and repeatable.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Huh?


Nonsense.

"Thrust" and spin aren't things that can be manipulated separately; they're both created by a single force applied in a single direction by the tip hitting the ball from a certain angle. Creating that angle by "swiping" your stroke is identical with lining up at that angle and stroking straight - except less accurate and repeatable.

pj
chgo
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Ummmm, nope. Do it till you know how to do it and then report back.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=XWtyPrgn2VA#t=300s

Best,
Mike
 
BHE. I was taught this by an old time top player in the early '60s but it had no name then that I knew of. I was also taught another way of applying spin.
Lets say you want to use extreme high left. Aim high center and with each practice stroke move the tip farther left until you get to the right spot on the cue ball and then stroke it. Once you get used to this you can do it quickly and with just a few strokes.And you do this not with the back hand but by pressuring the bridge hand to the left. Hard to explain but once I show someone how it's done they get it right away.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Huh?


Nonsense.

"Thrust" and spin aren't things that can be manipulated separately; they're both created by a single force applied in a single direction by the tip hitting the ball from a certain angle. Creating that angle by "swiping" your stroke is identical with lining up at that angle and stroking straight - except less accurate and repeatable.

pj
chgo
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Yes, a single force. No, not identical with lining up then going straight forward on a diagonal. The swipe stroke is a cue turned diagonally with most of the momentum going forward, you would have to literally move your bridge hand during the final stroke to acheive the same effect without BHE.

Take a pencil and point it straight ahead on your desk to 12:00--at a circle on the table representing a cue ball, you are aimed at center ball. Now twist or pivot the pencil so the point is pointed at 2:00 as in a BHE swiping stroke to apply right english. You're saying holding it near the eraser and stroking straight toward 2:00 in the distance is the same as a last minute adjust, which is more like holding the pencil near its middle and bringing the whole pencil forward, though it is turned to a diagonal angle.

The straight diagonal stroke and the coming forward turned diagonal pencil provide two different cue ball effects, since the line through the cue ball is different for each shot. The diagonal stroke should have a follow through with the cue stick still pointed at 2:00, the BHE will follow through to somewhere between 12 and 2.

The shot I referred to is to take an object ball and nestle it against the cushion a diamond away from the corner pocket. Set the cue ball at some cut angle you like from 10 to 30 degress to the corner. You can stroke surprisingly fast and hard, even to where a pivot or parallel english stroke seems like it would be of almost nil effect, and get amazing action using a BHE stroke.

The advantage lies in BHE through the bridge hand. I have photos in my book showing that on a BHE stroke as opposed to a pivot english stroke, the cue stick is much closer to the center ball line where it runs through the bridge hand.

Pivot English, Parallel English, Backhand English
 
BilliardsAbout said:
The swipe stroke is a cue turned diagonally with most of the momentum going forward, you would have to literally move your bridge hand during the final stroke to acheive the same effect without BHE.
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Nonsense. You'd have to move your bridge hand with or without BHE to accomplish that silliness.

The straight diagonal stroke and the coming forward turned diagonal pencil provide two different cue ball effects
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Nonsense. Besides the fact that it's impossible to do what you describe with a fixed bridge, it wouldn't make any difference anyway. The tip would still hit the CB from one direction, just as if you stroked straight from that direction. The angle of the cue behind the tip doesn't matter.

the line through the cue ball is different for each shot.
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There's no "line through the cue ball" that can't be accomplished with a straight stroke. This one, for instance:

...take an object ball and nestle it against the cushion a diamond away from the corner pocket. Set the cue ball at some cut angle you like from 10 to 30 degress to the corner. You can stroke surprisingly fast and hard, even to where a pivot or parallel english stroke seems like it would be of almost nil effect, and get amazing action using a BHE stroke.
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Using a "swiping" stroke on this (or any) shot just reduces accuracy for no gain whatsoever in CB action.

If this is the kind of thing you "teach" at BilliardsAbout.com, then I'm glad you've stumbled in here so we can warn other readers about the misinformation you're spreading there.

pj
chgo
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
Nice out, Efren... including the swipe-stroke.

But I don't think there's anything you can do with a swiping motion that you couldn't do by lining up at the "swipe angle" and stroking straight.

pj
chgo
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I agree but with a caveat. I find that an open bridge 'swipe' stroke allows me to put a little more english on the ball but with less 'foward' momentum than the straight stroke. I actually use 2 'normal' methods. The paralell & the combined back hand with the bridge hand slide. I've never really considered know why or when I choose one over the other. Just my 2 cents.
 
measureman said:
BHE. I was taught this by an old time top player in the early '60s but it had no name then that I knew of. I was also taught another way of applying spin.
Lets say you want to use extreme high left. Aim high center and with each practice stroke move the tip farther left until you get to the right spot on the cue ball and then stroke it. Once you get used to this you can do it quickly and with just a few strokes.And you do this not with the back hand but by pressuring the bridge hand to the left. Hard to explain but once I show someone how it's done they get it right away.
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well said. It's actually abit of back hand & a bit of bridge 'slide'.
 
AtLarge said:
What you describe sounds like front-hand english (FHE) rather than back-hand english (BHE).
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I do it both ways depending on the shot.Back hand -front hand what ever. I've been playing so long I don't even think about it,it's automatic.
And swiping works if it's done on close shots where you need just a tad more spin,but you have to do it slow and give the cue ball a little more time to rotate faster before it hits a rail.
 
ENGLISH! said:
I find that an open bridge 'swipe' stroke allows me to put a little more english on the ball but with less 'foward' momentum than the straight stroke.
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You'd put a little more English on the ball with less forward momentum by simply stroking straight at the squirt compensation angle. That's exactly what you're doing with the swipe stroke, except with a more complicated, less repeatable method.

If we were together I'd show you that any CB effect you can get with a swipe stroke can be duplicated with a straight stroke.

pj
chgo
 
ENGLISH! said:
I agree but with a caveat. I find that an open bridge 'swipe' stroke allows me to put a little more english on the ball but with less 'foward' momentum than the straight stroke. I actually use 2 'normal' methods. The paralell & the combined back hand with the bridge hand slide. I've never really considered know why or when I choose one over the other. Just my 2 cents.
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As far as I understand it, the maximum spin to speed ratio is limited by the coefficient of friction at the tip-chalk-ball interface. This likely can't be changed by the angle of attack, but things do get complicated at that level of detail. Dr. Dave tested the idea of using swoop to generate more spin here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NV_B-34_swoop_English.wmv

He admits that the results aren't absolutely conclusive, but if there is a gain, it would seem to be rather small. In a situation where you're trying to maximize the spin to speed ratio, you're going to be flirting with the miscue limit either way (straight stroke versus swoop). The swoop adds a critical timing element to this. Personally, I wouldn't mess with it unless it were absolutely shown that there is some real gain to be had, which doesn't seem to be the case.

In some situations (e.g., when the cueball has enough room to achieve a full roll), you can increase the spin to speed ratio when it reaches the object ball by adding draw. Hitting at about the 4:30 mark maximizes it. Of course, swerve on the way to the object ball complicates the shot in its own way.

Jim
 
I use BHE or swoop whatever you all want to call it to throw the OB into the pocket (not hit it into the pocket) on specialty shots requiring extreme QB placement. Its not something I do all the time, only when needed and it works very well for me.

8Pack gave a very good example in his Youtube. Ya gotta do what ya gotta do sometimes. I do this quite often in 1P playing very close position.

John
 
Using a "swiping" stroke on this (or any) shot just reduces accuracy for no gain whatsoever in CB action.

If this is the kind of thing you "teach" at BilliardsAbout.com, then I'm glad you've stumbled in here so we can warn other readers about the misinformation you're spreading there.
Click to expand...

backhand-english.jpg


I don't have access to Photoshop/InDesign at the moment, so I drew you a picture. The BHE stroke is a diagonally turned cue hitting in a different direction than a cue that begins with a pivot. Illustrations #1 and #2 are not the equivalent stroke (direction) as #3. In rough terms for #3, say the cue is coming forward at 10 m.p.h. and with a last-moment pivot bringing about 1 m.p.h. of momentum diagonally to the right. The AIM is now different than with a pivoted cue. That is totally different than pointing it straight through or diagonally through with english and proceeding at 10 m.p.h. with a non-swerved stroke.

You can confirm this by coming forward with a final stroke and making a last moment move with your shooting hand to the left to add a dash of right english at impact, and compare by hitting some pivot english shots the same speed and at the same aim point on the cue ball. (The old try-it-before-you-knock-it technique.)

Reyes and Bustamente know a lot about pool and they employ BHE. Others like Houle, Greenleaf and Mosconi, too, come to mind. Seemingly without attempting the technique, you say it doesn't work. Interesting!

I suggest that when you don't understand something, Patrick, you ask for clarification, rather than behaving rudely. My students do spectacularly well at About.com and are not insulted there as you persist in insulting many people who try to further the sport.

I further suggest that when someone suggests a shot or technique you 1) try it and/or seek to understand it before you insult the person who suggests it 2) say thank you for the idea and/or no thank you.

I am going to persist in giving free lessons to people online when I feel like it and you can be a little more considerate of your fellow teachers. Where is your teaching website, by the way? I'd like to read some of your articles online.

Thanks.
 
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