Top english change to draw after bounces of bottom rail

Exactly like what was described as the shot.
"a small angle kick shot to bottom rail with lots of high top english where CB after hit the OB, CB draws back to the same rail it bounces of"

Seems like in theory ( as in the same place where you do an experiment in a vaccum with perfect spheres with low friction and a robot hitting this ), it can happen. If the cueball maintains the same direction of roll coming off the rail, and keeps it after hitting the object ball, it will draw back to the rail as the spin will be a draw shot from that angle. On a real table, I would think you'd need to be in about the same distance as you would see if you hit a ball with follow to try to bounce it up table but end up sucking it back to the rail. Maybe an inch or 2.



Patrick Johnson said:
Maybe it's useful to see exactly what shot we're all talking about.

Here's the shot I'm talking about and which I believe naji described in the original post (which I believe is highly improbable with undoctored cue ball and cloth):

View attachment 233879

I'm not sure what shot ENGLISH! is talking about.

pj
chgo
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hang-the-9 said:
Exactly like what was described as the shot.
"a small angle kick shot to bottom rail with lots of high top english where CB after hit the OB, CB draws back to the same rail it bounces of"

Seems like in theory ( as in the same place where you do an experiment in a vaccum with perfect spheres with low friction and a robot hitting this ), it can happen. If the cueball maintains the same direction of roll coming off the rail, and keeps it after hitting the object ball, it will draw back to the rail as the spin will be a draw shot from that angle. On a real table, I would think you'd need to be in about the same distance as you would see if you hit a ball with follow to try to bounce it up table but end up sucking it back to the rail. Maybe an inch or 2.
Click to expand...

As demonstrated in Dr. Dave's video, a cue ball hit with top or draw under normal conditions pretty much comes off the rail with stun. The little bit of draw that may be made to occur isn't enough to produce significant draw after then hitting an object ball.
 
ENGLISH! said:
To: Patrick Johnson
I SINCERELY APOLOGIZE.
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Thanks, and apology accepted, but I'll take some responsibility for the miscommunication too. It isn't unusual when things get a little "technical" - people have different ways of describing things. I could have been a little more careful not to rile things up.

No harm, no foul.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Thanks, and apology accepted, but I'll take some responsibility for the miscommunication too. It isn't unusual when things get a little "technical" - people have different ways of describing things. I could have been a little more careful not to rile things up.

No harm, no foul.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

My thanks. I appreciate your graciousness & understanding.
 
DogsPlayingPool said:
dr_dave said:
The following video includes this case:

With typical conditions, a ball rolling into the rail comes out with stun.

Here's an example shot where this effect is used:

However, with really slick cloth and/or a Silicone-sprayed CB, the CB will retain some of the topspin into the rail, which acts like bottom spin off the rail.

Other videos on this topic can be found at the bottom of the following resource page section:
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Thanks, Dave. What I conclude from your video (HSVB15) is that under normal conditions you can't really convert any follow into significant draw coming off the rail. Same when hitting into the rail with draw under normal conditions - the backspin coming off the rail is slight at best. Even with unusually or artificially slick conditions, the amount of backspin on the cue ball seems fairly low.

Essentially, under normal conditions the rail seems to convert the cue ball to stun, more or less to a small extent.

Appreciate it! :grin-square:
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You're welcome.

Good summary.

Regards,
Dave
 
The way I took the shot from Mr. Naji's 2 post description, was that it was a longer kick shot from 1 end of the table to the other end of the table & then back again with the OB 1 to 1.5 diamonds out from the pocket. The cue ball hits the OB, stuns & then 'dribble spins' & stays near that end of the table near the rail. If it were a one pocket shot as he 'thinks', it might have been to 'kick / bank' a ball away from the opponents pocket & leave the cue near the opponents pocket. I think the 'reversing' top spin / draw spin is only because as he said 'seeing' it from the other side. Maybe Mr. Johnson can diagram this up for Mr. Naji's perusal.
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
Maybe it's useful to see exactly what shot we're all talking about.

Here's the shot I'm talking about and which I believe naji described in the original post (which I believe is highly improbable with undoctored cue ball and cloth):

View attachment 233879

I'm not sure what shot ENGLISH! is talking about.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

Exactly this is what i have seen. As far as the kick angel i really do not remember vividly. Thanks for the illustration. Pat. I put the same question at Onepocket.org hope someone come up with something.

8pack video is good, third shot has the idea,,thanks 8pack
 
naji said:
Exactly this is what i have seen. As far as the kick angel i really do not remember vividly. Thanks for the illustration. Pat. I put the same question at Onepocket.org hope someone come up with something.

8pack video is good, third shot has the idea,,thanks 8pack
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Looks like I was wrooooooong. I apologize again. I've never done that nor seen that. Might work though with a hop off the the rail or maybe off a ball frozen on the rail, but I don't think so while sliding & spinning on the cloth off the rail, maybe if it were closer to the rail.
 
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Why is this thread 7 pages long?? Simple shot, you should be able to do this with a decent stroke. Get higher up on the ball and if you miscue a couple times, oh well. You'll learn to spin the ball faster and in time, you can confidently stroke with max english without having to worry about miscuing. Practice some power spin shots like those in the Kamui videos. Shots like the one you're asking about will make more sense to you and you'll naturally develop a sense for using that touch of left or right needed for different kick angles. I didn't read the thread; it's probably all been said but there's my $.02
 
Had to look a bit for this thread again, but I just found an example of this shot.

In the 2008 US Open Final match Immonen vs Alcano. The rack where it's 10 Mika 3 Ronnie, about half way though the match, Ronnie has a shot at a 1 ball deep in the hole, he hits it, the cue ball goes up table, hits another ball a few inches away from the rail, and then spins back to the rail a bit.
 
spindoctor9 said:
Why is this thread 7 pages long?? Simple shot, you should be able to do this with a decent stroke. Get higher up on the ball and if you miscue a couple times, oh well. You'll learn to spin the ball faster and in time, you can confidently stroke with max english without having to worry about miscuing. Practice some power spin shots like those in the Kamui videos. Shots like the one you're asking about will make more sense to you and you'll naturally develop a sense for using that touch of left or right needed for different kick angles. I didn't read the thread; it's probably all been said but there's my $.02
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Sounds like just using extreme high with a half ball hit or more with a good stroke.


Whoops-----this was in reply to Hang the 9.
 
poolguy4u said:
Sounds like just using extreme high with a half ball hit or more with a good stroke.


Whoops-----this was in reply to Hang the 9.
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You already found that shot in the match? Or was that just a general thing about the shot?
Impressive if you found and watched the shot in the time I posted hehe.
 
hang-the-9 said:
You already found that shot in the match? Or was that just a general thing about the shot?
Impressive if you found and watched the shot in the time I posted hehe.
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No...I didn't watch it. It's something I do all the time when I'm hot doggin it or just showing off. It's amazing the things the cue ball will do when you shoot hard sometimes.:smile:
 
madmiller said:
I was trying to understand the shot you are talking about. Is it the shot like seen in this video at 1-49?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSkT2ZtKRLk&feature=plcp
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If you are talking about the shot the OP is referring to, then no, that's not the shot. See post #68 - PJ has a pretty good diagram of the shot being debated.

The shot you linked to has significant over-spin when it hits the rail do to fairly full contact with an object ball first.
 
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DogsPlayingPool said:
If you are talking about the shot the OP is referring to, then no, that's not the shot. See post #68 - PJ has a pretty good diagram of the shot being debated.

The shot you linked to has significant over-spin when it hits the rail do to fairly full contact with an object ball first.
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Thanks.
It was such a long discussion so I got confused lol.
The shot that I linked to is made using top left ( around 11-30) english so the ball draws back to the rail after hitting the rail rebounding from the ob
 
madmiller said:
Thanks.
It was such a long discussion so I got confused lol.
The shot that I linked to is made using top left ( around 11-30) english so the ball draws back to the rail after hitting the rail rebounding from the ob
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It actually follows back to the rail :smile:

Find this match, it will have this shot in it.
"In the 2008 US Open Final match Immonen vs Alcano. The rack where it's 10 Mika 3 Ronnie, about half way though the match, Ronnie has a shot at a 1 ball deep in the hole, he hits it, the cue ball goes up table, hits another ball a few inches away from the rail, and then spins back to the rail a bit."
 
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