I think is was a post by poolmouse that sumes it up completley. He said no one should be able to make a living playing pool since he had to work. I think this is the feelings of the majority of pool players toward the best players. So, I guess a big problem with the success of professional pool is lack of fan support, due in big part to jealously.
What's wrong with pool?
- Thread starter box3488
- Start date
Pretty much nailed it
Great Post & Observations Jason.
Add to your post, Fast Lenny Marshal, Streams some great local event for free. Often World Class One Pocket Player-Scott Frost is participating in the events. Most of the time Lenny don't draw many watchers, but Lenny keep streaming.
Full contact billiards? It's got potential
You know, maybe one of the things is way too many formats. You can have 2 guys playing the same game but the rules can be different so the pool populations fragmented. Also, I've seen golf mentioned here a couple of times and I was thinking about other sports that do well in terms of money, media, fan base... they all have some type of junior program that is supported by the educational system and is a team sport in schools. Now, pool has an awful stereotype, ie - you all are drinkers, gamblers and hustlers that'll wind up drunk or in jail or both. No one wants that for their kids, but could the opinion be any more incorrect? Team Cheerleading has a greater penchant for trouble. Did any of you ever know Cheerleaders that didn't have some sort of reputation, deserved or not? But still, Cheerleading, Golf, Swimming, Football and so on are all successful sports programs from the time a child is very young right on up through high school and at levels beyond that.
Maybe start by putting pool in high schools and making it a letter sport, finally something that you can play without being a neanderthal or one of the beautiful people, or a "mathlete"
Maybe start by putting pool in high schools and making it a letter sport, finally something that you can play without being a neanderthal or one of the beautiful people, or a "mathlete"
I think that the point made here is misinterpreted and misunderstood. 6000-7000 amateur players are playing miniature pool (Eight-Ball on a mini-table). What they are playing does not even remotely resemble what the pros are doing (rotation on a regulation table). The pros are playing pool. I don't know what the amateurs are doing but I do know that these two are not even close to the same sport. It is as different as golf and miniature golf. Try to get miniature golfers at your local PUtt-Putt to watch real golf. They are not even the same kind of people.
Look at the pictures above. Do they look like they play the same game? They don't. Regulation table pool is a very small market.
Last edited:
I have to disagree. Lots of people considered amateur---will play as good as a professional player.:smile:
And...some professional players will miss shots like an amateur. Some might even follow a ball with the cue ball and scratch on a critical shot.
Banks
Banned
The same can be said with just about everything in life.
"You call that cooking?"
"You call that driving?"
"You call that a business?"
The pros are playing Texas Express 9-ball. Go back a few years and ask what the pros thought of that game. If you're going to be elitist about something, don't let the customers in your pool hall know what you think of them playing on leagues or barboxes. I know that if I spent money at an establishment, I sure wouldn't return if the owner or manager started disparaging what I like to do as a hobby. The best you could do is to encourage people to take part in the game, however they may do it. You may think that you're showing them that they need to play on a 9' at best, but they may just find somewhere else to do it.
NFL, NBA, MLB, NASCAR, PGA, HOCKEY Pool in this country is trying to compete with these ESTABLISHED money making sports for sponsors. Other countries that have a huge pool fan base don’t have to compete with this many major sports for sponsorship money. Pool in this country has never gotten over the stigma of being a dark, sleezy game filled with shady characters(which is kinda of true LOL) If you are a sponsor looking to put your money behind your product where it will get viewed, are you going to put it in pool or are you going with one of the established MAJOR sports? Then you have the problem of how do you get sponsors interested and the general public. Well first off pool is a completely disorganized mess. Anytime a new organization pops up it is all about there little cliques, if you are a player in the clique you might make a few dollars but in the end they all fail. Pool in this country has to get united with one organization. You have to get everyone on the same page. You have to put a guy in charge who has a past history of trying to better pool and not in it just for himself. To me Greg Sullivan would be the perfect guy to head this organization. Nobody has done more in the last decade than Greg. I would have a board of governors made up of the same type of character as Greg. I would put Mark Griffin of the BCA on the board, Justin of TAR would also be a good choice. He has been busting his ass the last few years trying to generate interest in the sport with not much reward to show for it. The rest of the board can be made up of other respected pool people. Who I wouldn’t put on the board is a certain few league owners(APA) they have paid the same $ 25,000 for first place in the teams for 20 years +. They make millions and don’t raise the prize money? Don’t need people like that. Also certain promoters who are all about themselves are also out. Don’t need them. Once you have your president and board of directors, you form the tour. First thing you do is clean up the sport, get rid of all the drug addicts, cheaters, dumpers, etc. Mandatory drug tests!! No sponsor is going to put big money behind a sport filled with rampant drug use. Everytime a baseball, basketball, football or NASCAR athlete tests positive for drugs it is headline news. Now someone might say..yeah but all those sports have athletes test positive and the sponsors stay behind the sport BUT those sports are already established money makers for sponsors. Pool is still just trying to break through in this country. I think the game the pros need to play for this to even have the slightest chance to work is definitely 8 ball. That’s the game the general public play when they go out and shoot pool. You have to have the right commentators also. Someone who is not a stick in the mud on the air. You need someone who has really strong knowledge, comes across clear, a sense of humor will definitely help. Billy Incardona would definitely be one. I also think Danny Diliberto would also be a good choice. Billy and Danny have a great chemistry when they are doing the accustat matches. I would have a road story segment each week where legends of the game tell one of their funny or really good road trip stories. That would give some of the olders players that have dedicated their whole lives to a sport that hasn’t rewarded them a chance to make some money. I would also have Pro am tournaments where amateurs and pros play on teams together or scotch doubles. I would also get any other Pro athletes that love pool involved. NASCAR driver Tony Stewart loves pool, you get him on the air at a pool tournament and you might draw some NASCAR fans over. There are a lot of pro athletes and actors and actresses that love pool. Use them to cross over into those market places. I have a lot of other ideas but im tired of typing LOL If done right pool has a CHANCE to break through but everyone has to get on the same page.
You equate the two?
I read my post a couple times. I did not disparage anyone. I only spoke the obvious. Bar pool is miniature pool. Don't be concerned, I am not an elitist. I do know that pool can't reach the success of other great sports through miniature pool. Mini-pool (as Danny D. likes to call it) is a different game and has a different market.
I have made it very clear to my customers what I think of miniature pool. It is a highly skilled bar-room game that is an awful lot of fun. In my younger days, I loved to play bar-pool. That being said, I do not give it the same credits as what the pros do.
Last edited:
Banks
Banned
The term mini-pool is likening it to mini-golf, as I'm sure the term is meant to do. The thing is, there are no swinging logs, no lighthouses, etc. Golf courses can be of different difficulties and different distances, that does not mean that a public course is a silly version of Augusta.
I completely disagree that pool cannot reach great success with the inclusion of the barbox. The barbox introduces many more people to the game than the big tables, I'd guess. Playing on the barbox requires a similar, yet different set of skills. There are many things that I've learned on a barbox, that a lot of the big table players do not tend to do. The big table tends to lend itself to a more straight-forward, and imho, boring kind of game. Sure, the pros are going to do many of the same things on either table, but the armies of amatures are going to sacrifice so much for pocketing or leave that I think it may even slow down the learning curve in some cases. Safety play gets a similar kind of reaction at times, but how are people going to get any better if all they do is give up the table to failed shots? Virtually every game out there has a defensive aspect to it.
As for 'professional-sized' tables ... AAA baseball doesn't have the huge fields that MLB does. That does not dimish the skills of the players, though. It may raise their stats, but many of the skills remain the same. A 90mph fastball is still going to be a 90mph fastball in a big stadium. A 300' shot to right field is still going to be a 300' shot to right. It may not get as close to the wall, but it's still the same skill. The difference, though, is that there will be longer shots on the big table, the pockets will normally be less accepting, but the table runs a lower chance of being as clustered. Once you move up to the big tables, you must knuckle down on accuracy. If you cannot increase your accuracy on a barbox, you'll still end up missing. You may be able to run a little further, but inaccuracy will eventually catch up with that.
Barboxes and leagues serve pool greatly in that it has a mass appeal for people to join in on pool for various reasons and are much more accessible. If you want to get into skiing, you don't jump on the first lift to the top(black/double-back diamond) and figure your way down until you get it, you start slowly and build up your ability. In the NFL and other leagues, they put forth an effort to help beginners(the kids, of course, due to age) get motivated and learn more skills. I enjoy playing, enjoy helping people learn and have watched several people get more into the game due to that. I think more of that type of encouragement is needed to build a larger base for the game and industry, focusing on a trickle-up for pool hall business.
Banks, I think you are reading too much into all this. Let's try this:
If those 6000 or 7000 amatuer players were regulation table players that played Nine-Ball, those stands in the pro event would be packed every minute.
If those 6000 or 7000 amatuer players were regulation table players that played Nine-Ball, those stands in the pro event would be packed every minute.
I get your point but it's a little more complicated. The demographic is just not an ideal one. By and large pool players are a bunch of nits that whine about the price of the hotel rooms, the cost of the food, and the asking price for a bottle of water. They just aren't inclined to walk down the hall in numbers and spend $35-$40 for a day pass to the pro event, imo.
Banks
Banned
I don't doubt that at all. What I'm saying, though, is that the fact remains that barboxes highly out-number(at least in my area) the big tables. In order to get 6000 people playing on the big tables(or at least to take the game seriously), you'll need 60000 people on the small tables. Space and money are at a premium, so big tables are not likely to take over any time soon. Nurturing the amature ranks and encouraging more serious play are the keys to getting thousands of people into the pool halls.
My story is an example. I needed something to do and I was considering either shooting some pool or going bowling for a little hobby. I knew there were tables at the bar around the corner, so I headed over for a beer and to knock a few balls around. I was just doing what I could on the table when I was approached and asked to join an APA team. Perfect, something cheap and regularly scheduled for an after-work hobby. After a while, I got a little better and found out about the more serious BCA league. I joined one at a bar. A year or two later I joined one at a pool hall.
Now I have plans to join the upcoming straight pool league at the hall. A few of my APA friends have also come along and joined the hall's BCA league as they improved enough to feel somewhat competitive. Now the pool hall has a few more customers, part of which make more regular trips to the pool hall. This is how I view leagues and barboxes, as not a lesser pool, but as a stepping stone in a possibly life-long hobby.
In order to get more people involved, become part of that and play a part in helping it to grow. Actively pursue league teams for your location. My Tuesday night APA division has 4 teams at that hall, that's 2 teams hosting 2 other teams each night - up to 32 people! Post information about more serious leagues, information about tournaments and host instructors. Too many people fall into the "if you build it, they will come" mentallity, but it doesn't work so easily for pool.
I'd like nothing more than to play in a tournament and have a dozen friends show up to cheer me on. Unfortunately, pool does not have that kind of draw and those that would show up would have to have some kind of interest in the game. Either a base needs to be built to support the structure or a special personality needs to be involved(aka The Hustler) in order to attract people to the game. The second had a temporary affect, the first would have a more long-term and reliable affect.
I may be reading into it incorrectly, but that's how I see pool doing 'right' and turning itself around.
:smile:
Actually, lots of those 6,000-7,000 amateur players are big table 9 ball players and many of them can play nearly as good as any pro on any size table.
Don't judge a player by the table they are playing on. Lots of players do both just like lots of pro players do.
Just a few years ago, Brandon Shuff was on the front page of every pool magazine and playing in amateur Tap League. Just because someone plays in an amateur league doesn't mean they can't play on a big table.
I play in Tap league and shoot on a regulation table. Lots of big table players play in amateur leagues. :thumbup:
I doubt that. People may be jealous of someone winning the lottery but pool is much different. The work put into being a great pool player is far harder then most jobs and not something many would be willing to do even if they had some talent. Playing any pro sport is not a cake walk, pro sports is a very hard and uncertain future.
Even if pool was more lucrative the player after a lifetime of work is only one injury or health issue away from losing their ability to make a living completely at their chosen profession. Without a contract with a sponsor and a salary they live hand to mouth depending on the excellence each performance. Not to mention that they a surrounded by other players wanting what they have, a willing to do anything to get it. Pro sports is a brutal existence few of us, if we were honest, would really want. We think they are just getting paid to play a game, how fun, not really.
Best post in the thread, so true and well said.
