What's wrong with pool?

box3488 said:
Why isn't there a tour for pool like there is for golfers? The players are there but why isn't the money? It's brutal that unless you take top 4 in a professional event you are going to lose money. Something's wrong here. What needs to be done to get the pool world more rewarding? I'm tired of hearing people ask why do we play a sport that has
No future. I believe it's possible to change the outlook on pool. Would like more opinions about the subject because I know there's plenty out there that feel like I do.
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Some of you out there are old enough to remember when pro basketball got no respect, it was boring to watch and going nowhere. Why, to much safety play, one team got a few points ahead and then they just dribbled the ball around running out the clock and not shooting any shots.
What rule change did they make, the 25 second shot clock, end of the boring safety dribbling to run out the clock.
Look at pro basketball now, a billion dollar sport and multimillion dollar athlete's.
I think pool needs some rule changes that gets it back to great shot making and position play. Todays safety play is just plain boring to me and I love watching good pool.
JDale
 
Jdale said:
Some of you out there are old enough to remember when pro basketball got no respect, it was boring to watch and going nowhere. Why, to much safety play, one team got a few points ahead and then they just dribbled the ball around running out the clock and not shooting any shots.
What rule change did they make, the 25 second shot clock, end of the boring safety dribbling to run out the clock.
Look at pro basketball now, a billion dollar sport and multimillion dollar athlete's.
I think pool needs some rule changes that gets it back to great shot making and position play. Todays safety play is just plain boring to me and I love watching good pool.
JDale
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Not that I completely disagree with you on the need to speed up play in pool, but the shot clock is a little different animal than it is for sports like basketball and football, for example. The difference is in those games the contest itself is ruled by a clock. In basketball a team used to be able to stall with the lead to run out the clock. But pool is played to a certain number of points period regardless of how long it takes so stalling is to a large degree irrelevant (perhaps with the exceptions of sharking your opponent, freezing him in his chair, keeping him out of stroke, etc). But slow play doesn't actually get you closer to winning like it did in basketball because no game clock is counting down.

One other factor is that in pool slow play doesn't affect the live audience as much because for most of the event you have numerous matches all going on and being viewed at the same time. More of a problem for the current state of streams and TV. Better production values could take care of much of this by having multiple cameras to cut to the different matches in progress but of course, that takes money and the money isn't there. Golf is a good example of this though. If only one camera followed Tiger around for 18 holes it would be pretty boring, consisting mainly of watching him walking, nibbling on a protein bar, or standing around waiting.

Bonus Ball should be interesting in this regard because the contests are timed. Games are 10 minutes IIRC.

Still, I agree that slow play is problematical for gaining and keeping the interest for viewers.
 
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Mole Eye said:
In looking at the history of pool, when it was very popular, we had a world champion playing challenge matches. Tournaments were primarily to determine who would challenge the champ.
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When pool was in its heyday, there were what, 1000 - 2000 rooms in New York City alone? Something like that.

And NO TELEVISION.

Nuff said.
 
DogsPlayingPool said:
Not that I completely disagree with you on the need to speed up play in pool, but the shot clock is a little different animal than it is for sports like basketball and football, for example. The difference is in those games the contest itself is ruled by a clock. In basketball a team used to be able to stall with the lead to run out the clock. But pool is played to a certain number of points period regardless of how long it takes so stalling is to a large degree irrelevant (perhaps with the exceptions of sharking your opponent, freezing him in his chair, keeping him out of stroke, etc). But slow play doesn't actually get you closer to winning like it did in basketball because no game clock is counting down.

One other factor is that in pool slow play doesn't affect the live audience as much because for most of the event you have numerous matches all going on and being viewed at the same time. More of a problem for the current state of streams and TV. Better production values could take care of much of this by having multiple cameras to cut to the different matches in progress but of course, that takes money and the money isn't there. Golf is a good example of this though. If only one camera followed Tiger around for 18 holes it would be pretty boring, consisting mainly of watching him walking, nibbling on a protein bar, or standing around waiting.

Bonus Ball should be interesting in this regard because the contests are timed. Games are 10 minutes IIRC.

Still, I agree that slow play is problematical for gaining and keeping the interest for viewers.
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I was not suggesting that a shot clock would do the same for pool, as it did for basketball. I don't believe slow play is the problem.
I agree with your second paragraph completely, well said.
JDale
 
Jdale said:
Some of you out there are old enough to remember when pro basketball got no respect, it was boring to watch and going nowhere. Why, to much safety play, one team got a few points ahead and then they just dribbled the ball around running out the clock and not shooting any shots.
What rule change did they make, the 25 second shot clock, end of the boring safety dribbling to run out the clock.
Look at pro basketball now, a billion dollar sport and multimillion dollar athlete's.
I think pool needs some rule changes that gets it back to great shot making and position play. Todays safety play is just plain boring to me and I love watching good pool.
JDale
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How about, other than the break, the penalty for not poketing a ball, results in ball in hand or in the kitchen, that is NO safties. That should make them shoot SHOTS. Just a 'quick' thought. Maybe not well thougt out.

PS Maybe a televised Las Vegas challenge match between the World Poker Champion & a top pool player to show the difference skill level between the two. 10 hands of poker & then 10 games of 'pool', total games won is winner take all.
 
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Market size: Golf:: total impact $195B, total golf economy $75B, total wages $65B

Market size: Billiards:: 37M players, 12M participants (found no $ numbers)

So, each pool participant would have to spend between $5K and $15K on pool stuff {Table time, cues, fees, dues,...} per year and I just don't see the average participant paying more than $500 per year and another $200 on equiptment.

A golfer might pay $20 for green fees and another $20 for balls, and $25 for a cart every time he plays golf (say $75 to $100 ($200+ at richer venues)). A league player might spend $7-$10 per night at league. {Drinks not included in either.}

Thus billiards economy is at about 10% (maybe 15%) of what would be necessary for the advertizers and sponsers to "get in the game". Small factors of 2X still don't reach the level needed.
 
CreeDo said:
If you're dying to hear opinions, it's one of the mostly hotly debated topics, you can dig through past threads to read millions of possibilities.

To save you time, I'll try to list the ones I've seen a lot over the years.

• Well-played pool is dull to watch, and if nobody's watching, sponsors won't pay to advertise.
• The players aren't professional and get away with acting or dressing in a low class way.
• It has negative image because the media portrays it as a pastime for con artists and barflies.
• There have been various specific scandals that make sponsors avoid it even though it's popular.
• The few who try to promote pool in a serious way might be great players but lack business sense.
• Pettiness, greed, and corruption (both the players and the 'management') have held it back.
• Inconsistent equipment and rules make it seem more like casual recreation than a "real" sport.
• The promoters are out of touch with the everyday player (e.g. they don't promote 8-ball)
• Because bars put in pool tables, it's permanently associated with smoking, drinking, and fast living.
• Players are not 'telegenic' or 'athletic', you can master the game despite being morbidly obese.
• Many pros are moving to poker, and fewer pros = fewer people to look up to or promote the sport.

I could probably come up with more if I really wanted. Argue away!

PS: my opinion (just an impression)... past scandals are irrelevant, players throwing tantrums or being rumored to do drugs is also irrelevant (NFL/NBA players involved in shootings, rapes, etc... mcenroe slamming his racket, woods getting caught cheating, lance getting accused of doping, etc.). The dirty barfly image is also not relevant - look at poker.

Inconsistent equipment and rules are a problem but not that relevant, we've settled on 9ft and the rules are all close enough. Nobody turned off the TV because the players weren't shooting it behind the line or using a bar box.

Lack of professionalism might be relevant, it gives potential sponsors a bad impression to see walmart clothes and empty seats when they watch e.g. a TAR broadcast.

Lack of business sense: probably relevant. Poker's been around a while but only got popular recently. Why? Probably smart people at the helm marketing it properly.

The one I've always felt was the main killer = it's dull to watch. Someone pointed out that poker should be dull to watch too, and that makes sense on paper. But I think people relate to poker because there are mind games and facial expressions to read, plus some drama in the unveiling of the cards. We like to see people trick and outsmart each other, even though that doesn't require any exciting physical acrobatics.

With pool, when the player is good, the rack is completely routine and predictable, and they make it look effortless. You don't say "holy shit" when someone drills in a long shot, the way you would when someone makes a 20 foot putt or 90 yard pass or something. Some of the stuff the athletes on TV do is out of our reach completely, but most players on this forum can make most shots you see in pro pool events... just not consistently.
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Excellent post.
 
lukemindish said:
If I had a dollar for every time a thread was started on this topic...
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Think it is like asking is there really a God, and someone will be frustrate over something, and ask the question that has been asked many time before. Is there a God.

As for Pool, the best advise is to read the Willie Mosconi's Autobiography, as it answer a lot of questions, about why Pool is where it is at today, and was way back when.
 
Pool is too easy------------------


Pockets are twice as big as the balls.
Everyone wants perfectly level tables and round balls.
Everyone wants to play with a straight stick.
The pockets don't even move when you are shooting into them.
This makes the game too easy.


Too many people in America can shoot good.
Make tournaments a race to one game, but you play until you lose 7 times.
This will even the field and let someone not so good advance.
Tournaments are top heavy with the payout like most other sports.
Charge admission for spectators, but give free GOOD coffee, Coke, and a hot dog.

There needs to be something special to draw people in. Shooting balls into pockets isn't enough.:smile:
 
Mole Eye said:
I agree Creedo makes very good points. However, I don't think that the problems mentioned are unconquerable. The fact is that professional billiards was once very popular, but I believe got away from what made it so.
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Thanks guys, and for the record I think Mole eye's on to something.

A lot of the popularity of sports (or anything that entertains a group of people) comes from focusing on personalities. It's an effective way to market almost anything.

In some cases, the focus can be on just one player. It helps if that one player is phenomenal, wins everything in sight for a while, and is telegenic... in other words, tiger woods or michael jordan.

We may never make pool into the nfl or golf, but with a real expert marketing it... it's not impossible to think the average prize fund and number of viewers can be doubled or even tripled.
 
poolguy4u said:
Pool is too easy------------------


Pockets are twice as big as the balls.
Everyone wants perfectly level tables and round balls.
Everyone wants to play with a straight stick.
The pockets don't even move when you are shooting into them.
This makes the game too easy.


Too many people in America can shoot good.
Make tournaments a race to one game, but you play until you lose 7 times.
This will even the field and let someone not so good advance.
Tournaments are top heavy with the payout like most other sports.
Charge admission for spectators, but give free GOOD coffee, Coke, and a hot dog.

There needs to be something special to draw people in. Shooting balls into pockets isn't enough.:smile:
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How bout some scantily clad bimbos playing races then they start arguing and then they fall on the floor and wrastle till the remainder of their clothing gets torn off and then you could even throw in some jello, you know WWF style pool.
 
Pool is boring to watch. People who play pool will not pay even a nominal amount to watch the best in the world play the game.

Case in point: Every year in Vegas I am at the BCAPL nationals where there are 6000-7000 amateur players from all over the world. Less than a few hundred feet separate the amateur venue from a pro event featuring the best players in the world. The pro event has seating for a few hundred people. I have seen it full maybe once or twice in five or six years.

Case #2: My goal for TAR is to get 1000 people on earth to pay what an average meal for one at Applebees's costs to watch the best players in the world play matches that are designed to be what fans say they want to see. After five years its still nowhere close to that goal. If the best in the world at something cant draw 1000 paying customers then that says all you need to know about the marketability of the game in this part of the world. I dont want to hear about production quality schmality...Accu-Stats does the same numbers we do with ten times the budget. The audience is simply a very small dedicated bunch that is very very hard to grow.

There is no industry support because most in the industry are struggling to survive. The bar to entry into the pool industry is so low anyone with photshop and a facebook page can start their own tour/league/cue company whatever. While this has some positives it also means people are constantly having to deal with instability, date conflicts, price undercutting and having to deal with claims made by people trying to do things on the come. Basically the industry is so shaky in this country they cant really get behind anything too much even if they wanted too because they are worried about keeping their own boat afloat.

Talk about TV this and it should be presented this way that....none of it matters. The industry is fractured to the point of never being able to get behind anyone thing, there is no leadership at all and even if there was pool culture doesnt exactly breed team players. Pro pool will continue to thrash around and barely survive in this country while league pool will continue on as it has and maintain the inevitable push towards turning pool 100% into a bar game thought of on the same level as Megatouch machines.

But hey what do I know?
 
Slasher said:
How bout some scantily clad bimbos playing races then they start arguing and then they fall on the floor and wrastle till the remainder of their clothing gets torn off and then you could even throw in some jello, you know WWF style pool.
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WOW, another zinger in the same thread!:rotflmao1:
 
RED LITE said:
When pool was in its heyday, there were what, 1000 - 2000 rooms in New York City alone? Something like that.

And NO TELEVISION.

Nuff said.
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You always hear that but it is not really true as we would understand it. They may have gotten that number from maybe old business licenses. Many if not most of what they called pool rooms had only 1 or 2 tables in the back of a candy store or barber shop. If you used that same standard today then every bar with a table could be defined as a pool room. Can you imagine what that number would be, it would be huge.
 
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