John Schmidt's and Corey Deuel's comments on aiming systems

[Patrick Johnson]

with a slight inside strike you won't have anything resembling english on the cueball for more than a few rotations before the cloth straightens it out and if any "is" left at contact the contact induced spin negates it...

That may be true, but it doesn't change the fact that it's just an inside english shot with aim corrected for squirt.

Basically what he is doing is hedging to make sure he can never under cut the ball... At worst he makes it where he aimed....

If he miss-hits the cue ball, even if he's purposely trying to hit a little offcenter, he can miss the shot just as badly as with a centerball attempt.

This technique also takes speed sensitivity and tosses it out the window. You can misjudge speed and the ball still finds the pocket.

This shot is just as sensitive to speed as any similar sidespin shot - if you hit it too fast it can squirt to far; if you hit it too slow it can swerve too far.

You should actually try something before dismissing it

Believe it or not, I've actually hit a few centerball and offcenter shots. The only thing that makes this shot seem unusual is the way it's described.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I don't agree, PJ. In the picture, he would actually be aiming a little to the right side of the pocket, but would be achieving a center-pocket hit (or even a little left of center) because of the squirt put on the CB from the use of inside english.

I know you understand that, but I think you're just trying to call the resulting center-pocket hit the same as aiming center-pocket.

Roger

Again, the only difference is in how it's described: "aim" for the facing so squirt makes it go center pocket = "aim" for center pocket by adjusting aim toward the facing for squirt.

I think I've said this enough times now, so I'll let you guys get back to discussing this in your own ways.

CJ, no offense intended. Just stating the facts as I see 'em, however unpopular.

pj
chgo

 

[Mitchxout]

I agree with everything PJ said.

I also use inside on thin cuts to prevent undercutting. I've read that JArcher does the same thing.

However, I don't agree with squirting every cut shot.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I also use inside on thin cuts to prevent undercutting. I've read that JArcher does the same thing.

There are two possible reasons for this (as you probably know):

1. squirt increases the cut angle
2. inside spin can reduce throw by exceeding the optimum rubbing speed for throw

That makes physical sense, but I personally don't like trading spin variables for throw variables.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I agree with everything PJ said.

Prepare to be banned.

pj
chgo

 

[Mitchxout]

There are two possible reasons for this:

1. squirt increases the cut angle
2. inside spin can reduce throw by exceeding the optimum rubbing speed for throw

That makes physical sense, but I personally don't like trading spin variables for throw variables.

pj
chgo

I'm not sure what you meant? Would you rather allow for spin or throw?

 

[BasementDweller]

This shot is just as sensitive to speed as any similar sidespin shot - if you hit it too fast it can squirt to far; if you hit it too slow it can swerve too far.

I used to think that squirt was influenced by how hard you hit the cue ball but I thought I learned here that squirt is for the most part uniform for a wide range of speeds.

I'm flipping through my notes from last sememster but I can't seem to find my notes on squirt. So which is it?

***Edit***

I found my notes

Dr. Dave says -

"Cue ball deflection" or "squirt" refers to the angular deflection of the CB immediately off the tip. Squirt does not vary with speed.

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/squirt.html#speed

 

[Ratta]

edited

would be repeating myself.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Would you rather allow for spin or throw?

Throw is much easier for me to cope with.

Don't get me wrong, I use spin all the time (too much, like all of us) for shape, but I don't like it for shotmaking purposes.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I used to think that squirt was influenced by how hard you hit the cue ball but I thought I learned here that squirt is for the most part uniform for a wide range of speeds.

I'm flipping through my notes from last sememster but I can't seem to find my notes on squirt. So which is it?

***Edit***

I found my notes

Dr. Dave says -

"Cue ball deflection" or "squirt" refers to the angular deflection of the CB immediately off the tip. Squirt does not vary with speed.

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/squirt.html#speed

When I said "if you hit it too fast it can squirt too far", I was using shorthand for "hitting faster can decrease swerve, increasing the net effect of squirt".

pj
chgo

 

[BasementDweller]

When I said "if you hit it too fast it can squirt too far", I was using shorthand for "hitting faster can decrease swerve, increasing the net effect of squirt".

pj
chgo

Got it...thanks. I'm beginning to sort this out. I don't normally post so many of my thoughts as I'm trying to figure something out. Normally I just sit back like a good juror and figure things out at the end.

I think I finally see why this whole concept is pretty much pointless:

If you aim at the far side of the pocket (or the facing) and then employ CJ's method of relying on squirt, or at least consider the possibility of an off center hit creating squirt, all you have to do at this point is make sure you don't hit the unintended side of the cue ball. Then like Renfro said, if you hit the cue ball where you aimed then the object ball goes in, or at worst if you hit the cue ball off center and it squirts you make the object ball on the opposite side of the pocket (paraphrasing Renfro). Make sense so far?

What I finally realized is: why go through all that trouble when you can just aim at the middle of the pocket. Now if you hit the cue ball accidently to the right of center, the cue ball will squirt causing the object ball to go into the pocket slightly off center. Likewise, if you hit the cue ball to the left of center, it will do the same thing just opposite (provided the right squirt/swerve combo). So I think you still have the same margin for error. In other words, you would still have the same effective pocket size.

I think I got. Sorry for all the rambling posts but this one threw me off for a bit. It's my new belief that the technique in question doesn't really have much to offer, other than as I believe Neil may have mentioned 500 pages ago, about how this technique may get the shooter to actually look at a specific portion of the pocket which they weren't previously doing.

I will say that it was interesting to think about. Got me through my day.

And that's all I have to say about that.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

If you aim at the far side of the pocket (or the facing) and then employ CJ's method of relying on squirt, or at least consider the possibility of an off center hit creating squirt, all you have to do at this point is make sure you don't hit the unintended side of the cue ball. Then like Renfro said, if you hit the cue ball where you aimed then the object ball goes in, or at worst if you hit the cue ball off center and it squirts you make the object ball on the opposite side of the pocket (paraphrasing Renfro). Make sense so far?

Yep.

What I finally realized is: why go through all that trouble when you can just aim at the middle of the pocket. Now if you hit the cue ball accidently to the right of center, the cue ball will squirt causing the object ball to go into the pocket slightly off center. Likewise, if you hit the cue ball to the left of center, it will do the same thing just opposite (provided the right squirt/swerve combo). So I think you still have the same margin for error. In other words, you would still have the same effective pocket size.

Exactly right.

pj
chgo

 

[cookie man]

lol. Is it time to talk about "get-in english" yet?

Lou Figueroa

yes please start your very own thread on it

 

[CJ Wiley]

The Pool Perception....can yours be changed?

I understand there will be some sidespin english, but CJ is emphasizing the squirt aspect. I believe the sidespin created in this example works against pocketing the ball. It is the CB deflection that is helping. That is what makes the technique interesting.

I am used to reading about FHE and BHE to reduce squirt and using english to gear the ball in. Generating english/spin in the opposite direction than CJ's method.

I have not read about the technique of using and emphasizing deflection before. To me, it is new and I am curious to try it out on the table.

The one thing I've been waiting for someone to ask is "how do I develop the ability to do this the fastest?" .... because the fact of the matter is no one that doesn't have the ability to do this is going to be able to pick up on it......BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO DO IT EVERY TIME...this is about changing your perception of how to aim and perceive the pocket....you can't learn different perceptions by going back and forth between what you currently do and something that's totally new.....my perception of how to make balls is different than yours....and because of this I have been known as one of the best "shotmakers" in the history of the game....I played in two Target Pool championships with most of the champions and WON THEM BOTH....people have always known that I do something "different", but all champions know how to hit different parts of the pocket WITHOUT changing their aim....how do you think they do it? With either spin or deflection.....if there's any "sidespin" it's irrelevant to the mental process and that's what's MOST IMPORTANT....I'm speaking to those of you reading this that have "eyes that can see"....this isn't about science, it's about perception of the human, subconscious mind....if you are TOO conscious about this or anything else done unconsciously you will be like the guy that "suddenly realizes he's on the tight rope" and YOU WILL FALL from understanding.....I know this is difficult to understand, so why try so hard....just go play pool for 2 STRAIGHT HOURS cueing the ball with inside EVERY TIME.....and still play shape on the next ball, but do it with speed and force, not spin......this will "open your eyes" and you will start to have a new perception too.....or listen to these guys that go "bah humbug" at anything new or out of their comprehension and stay where you are....I want to see you enjoy a better way to play, but if you don't want to go through the trouble, then there's nothing more I can do .... and I did try just remember, when someone that is effective explains what they do they can only try to explain the process of HOW THEY PERFORM WELL....when someone that is ineffective explains what they do they are explaining a theory (not a process) of how they "someday" would like to perform better.

 

[swest]

I used this off-center hit/squirt+english-compensating technique for most of my pool-playing life. It is intuitively appealing, and appears to work, but is ultimately destructive and limiting (at least it was for me).

I have, in the last 3-4 years been trying to retrain myself from doing it (and, since you end up doing it unconsciously, it is very difficult to purge) and return to pure center-ball striking with side applied only when required to make the cue-ball do something off the rail (or for the occasional instance where you're squeaking by an obstructing ball and have to apply some throw to the object ball to pocket it).

 

[AtLarge]

... all champions know how to hit different parts of the pocket WITHOUT changing their aim....how do you think they do it? With either spin or deflection.....

Is your use of (or way of thinking about) deflection in this way unique to you, or used by just a few top players, or used by many top players? Can you name some others? It would be interesting to watch for that (if it can be seen at all) in several players.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Draw, Fade or Hit it Straight...Zone Play 101

Is your use of (or way of thinking about) deflection in this way unique to you, or used by just a few top players, or used by many top players? Can you name some others? It would be interesting to watch for that (if it can be seen at all) in several players.

Mike Lebron is the first one to bring it to my attention when he was around all the Filipinos back in 1991 .... I ask Efren about it and what his technique for throwing balls was and he simply said "no spin!" ...a very Wise man of few words...and you will see if you do as I have suggested that the "no spin" is done with a "touch of inside" which makes the cue ball appear to float rather than spin..(it also gives the object ball spin slightly in what I call a "pocket acceptance" way) .....it's very important to do this in wet conditions ie: Philippine pool rooms, Florida, Louisiana, etc....I don't think I'm giving away some top secret information here, there's only going to be a few people accept it anyway...If you're content on aiming at the center and hitting the ball straight, by all means do it...if you want to experiment with throwing the ball to create a bigger zone, then "be at choice"....Don't confuse the messenger with the message LoL....and I can't see it revolutionizing pool or anything like that. As said in many of my past posts, it's like Fading and Drawing in golf....I like to Draw (hook) the ball and Johnny Archer always liked to Fade (slice) the ball ( although he recently told me he uses a touch of inside when frozen to the rail) ....his works best on new cloth, mine on worn cloth.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Take Dead Aim

I used this off-center hit/squirt+english-compensating technique for most of my pool-playing life. It is intuitively appealing, and appears to work, but is ultimately destructive and limiting (at least it was for me).

I have, in the last 3-4 years been trying to retrain myself from doing it (and, since you end up doing it unconsciously, it is very difficult to purge) and return to pure center-ball striking with side applied only when required to make the cue-ball do something off the rail (or for the occasional instance where you're squeaking by an obstructing ball and have to apply some throw to the object ball to pocket it).

The veer used is very, very slight to throw a ball half a pocket.....when I do it I like to feel like I'm the only one in the room that can tell....so it's just a "hair" of inside for me.....I tell people to use a half a tip just so they do it TOO MUCH.....then when they say they're overdoing it I tell them to tone it down and just go slightly off center....everyone needs to calibrate their deflection/spin anyway in case no one's shared that with you....good luck and take Dead Aim :thumbup:

 

[Mikjary]

Okay...I now see what you were saying. Dang, I thought I had you for a second.

This still seems like it may have legs though - if only for cinching balls. If I aligned the shot to hit the facing of the pocket and then cue to hit with just a bit of inside, it would appear to me that I have more margin for error to actually make the shot. When you consider that all I would have to do in that situation is ensure that I hit the cue ball somewhere between dead center and extreme inside english (with a firm stroke).

I think I understand that you are saying that every time you use english that you have to compensate in a similar fashion. So this is nothing new. But something seems different about CJ's concept. Unfortunately I can't quite put my finger on it.

Bottom line for me is I've never considered using inside english to cinch a ball in this manner. I've always just used center ball. I'm going to have to take this to the table and see what I think.

CJ is saying you can favor one side and dead center cue ball. If you aim center cue ball and are slightly off, favor one side if you have to be off. You will have a margin for error.

Best,
Mike

 

[swest]

The veer used is very, very slight to throw a ball half a pocket.....when I do it I like to feel like I'm the only one in the room that can tell....so it's just a "hair" of inside for me.....I tell people to use a half a tip just so they do it TOO MUCH.....then when they say they're overdoing it I tell them to tone it down and just go slightly off center....everyone needs to calibrate their deflection/spin anyway in case no one's shared that with you....good luck and take Dead Aim :thumbup:

Yeah, I had to have Jerry Briesath show me that it only takes a small amount of side for this purpose. I had always tried to put the maximum spin (for maximum effect), but not necessary (I think Koehler also demonstrates that in his book)...

- s.west