How many tips?

Steve Dickey

Steve Dickey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Reading a statement Sloppy Pockets made in his thread "Am I correcting without knowing it" got me thinking about tips of offset, and how this is measured. He had basically said that with one tip of offset he could shoot the CB from the spot to the center diamond on the short rail and into the side pocket. Later he said he uses a striped ball (placed vertically) and aims to hit his cue tip at the edge of the stripe, effectively at the limit of miscuing, to bank the CB into the side pocket. That got me to thinking that people may judge a tip of diameter differently. Possibly based on the diameter of their cue tip, contact patch which is a function of tip radius, or any number of possible reasons. My question is this, How many tips of offset exist between a center ball hit and say, hitting with maximum right english? Personally I do not think in terms of tips, but rather percentages. For example 60% right english in my mind would be aiming to place the center of my contact 60% the way to the miscue limit line (from center ball). Anybody else think in similar terms? FWIW,I think for discussions sake this is a more accurate way discussing degrees of "english", because evidently my definition of tip diameter may not match up with anyone else.
Shoot straight, Steve
 
Steve...Contact patch size does not change with a change in tip radius. The contact patch is the same size for a 13mm tip as it would be for an 11mm tip...about 3mm or 1/8". As you learned, you have about 3 tips (9mm) offset of the vertical axis, or the horizontal axis, before you start reaching miscue limits. I personally don't think one tip will get enough spin, to take the CB to the side pocket, from the middle diamond on the centerline. I just tried it, and it took maximum side (3 tiips) to get to the side pocket, off the rail. This is, of course, pure side (3 or 9 o'clock english)...no bottom spin to open the angle wider.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Steve Dickey said:
contact patch which is a function of tip radius
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Hi Scott,

I hope all is well with you, I continue to practice my modified "mother drills" and they are paying dividends. I would still argue that a 13mm tip with a
flat tip would produce a slightly larger contact than a snooker cue with a small radius (given similar tip material and same velocity of hit). I realize it would not be a significant difference. My point in the above is that it appears a "tip" of offset does not mean 3mm's for everyone on the forum, witness SP's single "tip" is your 3 tips. It seems to me there is a better way to measure offset. Steve
 
Steve Dickey said:
Personally I do not think in terms of tips, but rather percentages. For example 60% right english in my mind would be aiming to place the center of my contact 60% the way to the miscue limit line (from center ball). Anybody else think in similar terms? FWIW,I think for discussions sake this is a more accurate way discussing degrees of "english", because evidently my definition of tip diameter may not match up with anyone else.
Click to expand...
I agree 100%. "Tips" means so many different things that it doesn't mean anything. And who knows whether you're talking about the center of the cue or the actual tip/CB contact spot?

To really communicate about spin we have to measure something universal (actual tip/CB contact point) using a universal measure (percent of maximum or inches/mm).

pj
chgo
 
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I think you bring up a good point. A tip width will vary greatly depending on diameter of tip. In other words, an 11 MM tip with one tip worth of english is not the same as a 13 1/2 MM tip of english. There is only one contact point, of course, but I agree that percentage of english is probably more accurace than a tip width.
 
To me, tips of english simply is a way to measure how much spread the ball will have. I learned the clock system playing 3-cushion many, many years ago; on a billiard table each tip was 1 diamond spread if shooting the length of the table. so if you use the clock system shooting the length of the table: 1:00 is 1 tip (1 diamond); 2:00 is 2 tips (2 diamonds); 3:00 is 3 tips (3 diamonds); and 4:00 (max) 4 tips (3 1/2-3 3/4 diamonds). The spread is half the distance when shooting across the short way of the table.

It doesn't matter if the clock system is used or if you are able to judge the tips at center ball for 1-3 tips, you just need to duplicate the spread so you can use it in a game situation and rely on it. I was taught the clock system so that's the easiest way for me to get close almost every time.

I have found that on a pool table, the spreads are about double (1 tip = 2 diamonds the length of the table). Now this is not the same for new cloth & new balls as the spin doesn't take the same under those conditions, so it's a good idea to test each table before playing and adjust accordingly.

Hope it's OK to share my experiences.

Dave
 
Scott Lee said:
...you have about 3 tips (9mm) offset of the vertical axis, or the horizontal axis, before you start reaching miscue limits.
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That's a good place to start worrying about it, alright, but I think you can actually hit about halfway out to the CB's edge without miscueing - that's 9/16" or 14mm (viewed from straight on).

I don't like describing tip offset in "tips", but I think 1/8" increments works well. 1/8" increments divides the tip offset range into 4 "clicks" (1/8", 1/4", 3/8", 1/2" from centerball), which produce roughly equal angle increases off the rail - a useful reference system, especially when calibrated to the table.

pj
chgo
 
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tip mm

Neil said:
I agree with Scott's way of doing it. Dr. Dave's way isn't tip's of english, it's more like ferrules of english. Dr. Dave's way, the most you can get is 1 1/4 tips of english.
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Is this effected by the diameter of the shaft, or more specifically at the tip?
 
cjssecrets4u2 said:
Is this effected by the diameter of the shaft, or more specifically at the tip?
Click to expand...

Not enough to matter. Look at the size of the mark on the cb, and it will only be fractions of a mm. with an 11mm tip to a 13 mm tip. Essentially the same area.
 
...and as I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread, most of us define a 'tip of english' as 3mm or 1/8"...as that is the size of the chalk mark. Even when struck with more speed or force, and the mark appears larger, it is still the same 1/8"...the illusion is chalk dust blowback from the tip contacting the CB at a higher rate of speed.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Patrick Johnson said:
That's a good place to start worrying about it, alright, but I think you can actually hit about halfway out to the CB's edge without miscueing - that's 9/16" or 14mm (viewed from straight on).

I don't like describing tip offset in "tips", but I think 1/8" increments works well. 1/8" increments divides the tip offset range into 4 "clicks" (1/8", 1/4", 3/8", 1/2" from centerball), which produce roughly equal angle increases off the rail - a useful reference system, especially when calibrated to the table.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
 
Steve Dickey,

I too subscribe to your flatter tip theory, but more so or maybe only for a soft tip. I have used soft Elk Master or Brunswick Blue Diamnod tips for 46 years with a flatter shape, more like flat with rounded edges. I 'feel' that 'I' can put more spin on the ball with less stroke than with a harder tip & the 'round' shape. I 'feel' that the harder tip may be able to put more maximum spin on the ball than the soft tip but I 'feel' that it requires more stroke. The softer tip with the flater shape, 'to me', moves the ball more easily requiring less stroke to do it. One does not have to hit the CB as hard & thus I 'feel' one can control it better with less effort. Or at least 'I' can. I know I will get an argument against this but the softer, thicker tip, 'I feel' stays on the ball a miniscue fraction of second longer due to the increased amount of compression (it 'grabs' better). It is simliar to the difference in 80 & 100 compression golf balls. With everything else being equal, including the force of impact, the softer ball stays on the club longer than the harder ball because it compresses more. The older, soft cover Balata golf balls were much easier to spin & curve than the harder covered golf balls of today. Can todays pros curve today's golf balls? Sure, but with some exceptions they are swinging faster with more force than the pros of say the likes of Chi Chi Rodriquez, who could curve the ball with the best of them. I know the analogy is not exactly the same thing but it is about the difference of compression & the difference of the force required. Just my 2 cents & I'm fairly sure I will get some decenting opinions.
 
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Neil said:
AtLarge said:
Here's some info from the Dr. Dave trove on "tips of" english vs percentage english: http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/English.html#tips
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I agree with Scott's way of doing it. Dr. Dave's way isn't tip's of english, it's more like ferrules of english. Dr. Dave's way, the most you can get is 1 1/4 tips of english.
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Neil,

It isn't "Dr. Dave's way." I was just illustrating how many people interpret "tips" of English ... as "tip diameters" or "tip widths" or "shaft diameters" or "ferrule widths." The real problem, however, is that there seems to be various definitions of "tips of English" out there. Regardless, I do agree with you that "tips" is a poor way to describe English amounts, as I explain and illustrate in the articles on my "percentage" English resource page.

I also think "contact patch size" is a bad way to define "tips" of English. For one, it is confusing because many people don't think about contact-patch or chalk-mark sizes when they hear or think "tips." Also, many people don't have a good feel for the actual size of the contact patch (or chalk mark). Also, the size of the contact patch can vary with tip radius, tip hardness, shot speed, and amount of English. I think this adds to the confusion.

I think the best approach is "percentage" English. A center-ball hit (with no English) is 0%, and maximum English, at the miscue limit is (100%). Half of maximum English is 50%. Etc. I think this system is the simplest, easiest to visualize, most understandable, and least likely to be misinterpreted.

Here are some useful figures that illustrate various "percentages" of English, comparisons to the standard "tips" measurement, and an easy way to visualize maximum (100%) English.

tips_percent_English.jpg


maximum_tip_offset.jpg

Regards,
Dave
 
I was using Dr. Dave's way of describing the tip offset. I was aiming the center of the tip directly at the stripe edge, but the chalk mark was appearing about a full ferrule width from the center, so I was calling that one tip.

Apparently that is a lot more english according to the way some others view it. I tried for more (to try to get the chalk mark right at the borderline), but my stroke is perhaps not as fine as many others here, so I miscued badly at that point.

At any rate, it is enough for me to pocket the ball without using a screaming fast stroke. I wouldn't think table size would make a difference in the angle, but FWIW my table is an oversize 8, not a 9 footer.

I'll try to make a video of me doing it at some point just to show I'm not full of it. I'm kinda camera shy, though, so it'll take a few drams of single malt in me first to summon up the courage.

Thanks for setting me straight. :smile:
 
I'd like to see us just abandon the use of the term tips, it sounds like "the width of 1 tip" when you first hear it, but when you get down over a ball you'll find 3 tip widths actually takes you off the ball entirely. So when someone says "3 tips of left" we just mentally convert that to "maximum left".

I like your method of describing it. When talking among friends I say stuff like "a touch of" or "medium" or "max". This may be vague, but it's not like you can really communicate an exact amount and expect exact results... because the results also depend on their line of aim, stroke, speed, table conditions, etc.
 
Dr Dave,
Sorry i did not see the description in your website before I posted, but those were my thoughts precisely. "Tips" is a very ambiguous term and my feeling is that we should convert to "Percentage".
Dr Steve
 
Steve Dickey said:
Dr Dave,
Sorry i did not see the description in your website before I posted, but those were my thoughts precisely. "Tips" is a very ambiguous term and my feeling is that we should convert to "Percentage".
Dr Steve
Click to expand...
I'm glad to hear that "percentage" English is the "Dr. Steve way." It's also the "Dr. Dave way."

Regards,
Dave
 
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