Bravo... I agree completely.
EDIT:
Sorry guys... I'm usually mindful of bumps, so sorry for the one month bump!
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10 YEAR OLD TIME CAPSULE POST ...Is the world ready for cues to evolve?
- Thread starter 8onthebreak
- Start date
Bravo... I agree completely.
EDIT:
Sorry guys... I'm usually mindful of bumps, so sorry for the one month bump!
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Neil, I can appreciate that you're exploring new technology here. And I wish you good luck.
I just gotta ask, do you think anyone would seriously want to fine tune deflection, like they have 2 or 3 different levels of deflection desired for different situations? Assuming the tip matters that much and it's not mostly about the shaft?
Anything that changes where I have to aim my shots would drive me bonkers.
The best guitars are still made of wood. Sure, you can buy a carbon fiber guitar (I've got one for traveling and playing outdoors), steel and other materials...but none of them sound or play as good as wood.
And there are 150-year old guitars whose necks are as straight as the day they were made.
Sometimes nature's construction is simply the best for the application.
And there are 150-year old guitars whose necks are as straight as the day they were made.
Sometimes nature's construction is simply the best for the application.
Sir - to be clear, and to be historically correct, the evolution of cues has been going since the birth of the game(s). Just as the table too has evolved, since the beginning. Granted, there have been times when the evolution has slowed, or sped up, but things still change/improve regularly.
Also, keep in mind that [in a business model] the greatest motivators for innovation are efficiency and economics. ie - "Faster and Cheaper", with aesthetics falling to 3rd place. If there is no real monetary justification for building something better or faster, typically nobody will.
On the other hand, in case you were not aware of this, in just the last 150 years alone, cue makers have tried countless numbers of new cue designs that involved much more than just "new glue and screws". (phenolics and plastics being a huge part of that. ) Perhaps you're just not aware of exactly how much development has taken place thus far.
In other words, going from playing with a mace, to a custom-balanced carbon fiber low deflection, vibration dampening cue with a phenolic ferrule, is quite the advancement, considering that we've been playing pool since before we even knew what carbon was.
If, for some reason, you really believe that nobody is working on a better cue.... I would think again. Consider the following patent records...and this is just the tip of the iceburg:
2012 - interchangeable cue tip assembly.
2010 - pneumatic billiard cue.
2010 - Low defelection cue.
2009 - Cue with vibration dampening inserts, butt or shaft.
2008 - Cue handle composed of multiple strips surrounding stiffer core.
2006 - Hollow graphite cue.
2005 - Extendable billiard cue.
2005 - Pool cue with slidable sleeve; and use thereof.
2004 - 'Light-up' pool cue, sensing impact
2004 - Billiard cue with aiming effect
2001 - Computerized pool cue
2001 - Jump tip apparatus
2000 - English and trajectory assistant pool cue
2000 - Laser aimed pool cue.
1999 - Universal extension joint
1998 - Acrylic pool cue.
1998 - Tunable joint (billiard cue) with compressive inserts
1994 - McDermott new pin
1994 - Double action variable force cue.
1990 - New manufacturing process for wood pool cues to prevent warpage.
1989 - Cue tip chalk retention system.
1984 - Billiard Cue with lateral offset.
1980 - Two-piece cue with 'quick-connect' device.
1972 - New method of casting handle in plastic resin
1970 - Power operated pool cue.
1969 - Billiard cue with guide member.
1969 - Sectional cue with 'easy detach' feature.
1967 - Tapered metal cue with shock absorber
1967 - Cue with weighted handle and 'bridging sleeve'.
1966 - Spring-loaded billiard cue.
1965 - Pool cue with aiming sight.
1963 - Fiber-glass pool cue.
1940 - Billiard cue with plastic layered handle
1940 - New ferrule system with snap-on tip
1937 - CHALKLESS cue tip
1928 -Improved metal joint
1919 - Cue with taper beginning at butt
1915 - Two piece cue made of metal tubing
1905 - Tip holder with dual threaded screw-on tip
1901 - 'Self-chalking' billiard cue.
1900 - Spring-loaded billiard cue.
1894 - Billiard cue 'locking' device
1883 - Cue with an 'oscillating handle' for 'automatic draw'
1879 - Machine for making 'fake' spliced cues.
1878 - Cue ferrule with 'teeth' for holding leather tip on.
1876 - Cue with 'built in' chalk and sandpaper holder.
1872 - Cue constructed of multiple wood strips, with grain aligned, and hollow.
1872 - Dovetailed screw-on tip holder base
1870 - Screw-on ferrule to protect tip
1868 - Telescopic Billiard Cue
Well that's easy to say but we don't really know if it's true. I had Rafael Martinez as a guest in my house for several days. We talked pool among other things and I asked him flat out if Predator was really any good or if he was just using the shafts because they gave them to him. The first thing he said was that they really do work (as advertised). The second thing he said was that he would never try to play against other pros with a cue he didn't like for any reason. He said with the Predator he always felt that the cue ball would go where he pointed it to. This was in 1997ish.
Then in the Billiard Encyclopedia or the Blue Book is a story about Kim Davenport playing in a tournament and using his Balabuska as a break cue because he wasn't yet comfortable enough with it to use it in the event.
Performance of tool is both objective and subjective. To Predator's (Steve Titus') credit they built a shaft according to the data they acquired on deflection through testing. And spawned a whole new side of the industry.
I do totally agree though that better components does not necessarily make a better cue. Better construction does. While there are some notable cues from 50 years ago that are still dead straight and in great condition the majority of the cues made back then are not. But if one compares the majority of non-Chinese/Taiwanese cues built in the last 30 years I would tend to think that most of them are surviving quite well. Bill Schick said in the Cuemaker's Round Table that the secret to building solid cues is precise tolerances. He said that this is what Balabushka and Szamboti had in common. Bill ought to know I guess.
And now with the general improvement in Chinese made cues, especially among the top two cue makers, I would expect that many of those cues will survive a good long while.
Hit is subjective, performance is both objective and subjective when the tool is in the hands of the user.
I could hand a truly crappy cue to any decent player and ask them to make ten draw shots. The crappiness of the cue and its unworthiness to be used in this task would be readily apparent. Then I could put a good cue in their hands and they would have almost no problem drawing the ball. I could put the same tip on both cues and the result would be nearly the same. So it's not fair to say that there are not performance differences in cues.
All this is not to say that a Cuetec is better than a Balabushka by any means just because Cuetecs have been used in more title wins than any other cue. It is to say that Cuetecs, being made of composite materials wrapped around wood, have achieved a performance standard that is acceptable enough for some professionals to trust their game to it. Maybe they could play equally well or better with a Balabuska but they don't have to.
I think it would be an interesting data point to compare major tournament titles with the cue used. We often talk about this as if it matters and as if it doesn't matter depending on the conversation. So if anyone has a way to make a list that's fairly accurate it would be cool to see it.
Lastly I was once at a Super Billiards Expo and Mike Sigel had a booth selling his custom cues. He was holding court to an audience of about 30 people and regaling them about how many titles he won. Right after he says he has won the most titles or something like that a voice pops up from the back and says, "Tell them what cue you were using when you won all those championships Mike"........and Bob Meucci turns around and walks away.
Lastly...Are we really still swinging a piece of wood with a hunk of leather into a cueball after all these years??? A caveman could have rounded up all essential materials in 1 hour required to make a cue that we use today.
...A piece of wood, and a hunk of leather.
EVOLUTION????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Dude, where have you been? There has probably been more so called advancements in cues in the last 10-15 years than in the previous 100 yrs.
Graphite, carbon fiber, laminated woods, and tips, to name a few. Is it woods fault, or a single ply piece of leathers fault that they do a better job at the end of the day, than all these advancements? No, it's not. This is a timeless game/sport, played with a timeless instrument/tool. Hopefully someday you'll get the chance to play with a 100+ yr. old brunswick, on a 100+ yr. old brunswick, and you'll understand.
I have done both. I have owned cues from the early 1900s and I was not impressed. Solid hit, strange balance. I mean they were ok but not better than good modern cues. As for the table, with good modern cushions they play about the same as any good modern solid table.
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A stick of wood with a piece of leather on the end...yeah, we've come so far. Different glues, different threads on the pins, different machines that cut the wood to become the same wood, just cut by precision machine. Same hit, same materials, same practice, same look, same length, same diameter, really...
We've really come so far?
Compare a 1950 car to today's car.
Compare electronics to today's electronics, computers, etc.
Compare golf clubs, baseball bats, even hockey sticks,skis, radio,cd player,
Compare almost anything you want...you don't have to be ready for evolution, but you should be able to see that we've not made as much progress as could have been. I see why, some call it revolution, not ready for change, heck, I'm not sure that I am, but someday it will happen.
It's evolution when u are ready...it's revolution until you are ready.
There's leaders and followers. Those who think its revolution, will follow popular opinion til it shifts, then they will follow the new popular...
I'd like to hear from more cue makers who are pursuing evolution and their ideas. People will say its stupid, til it's mainstream. Have guts, be a leader!!!
We've really come so far?
Compare a 1950 car to today's car.
Compare electronics to today's electronics, computers, etc.
Compare golf clubs, baseball bats, even hockey sticks,skis, radio,cd player,
Compare almost anything you want...you don't have to be ready for evolution, but you should be able to see that we've not made as much progress as could have been. I see why, some call it revolution, not ready for change, heck, I'm not sure that I am, but someday it will happen.
It's evolution when u are ready...it's revolution until you are ready.
There's leaders and followers. Those who think its revolution, will follow popular opinion til it shifts, then they will follow the new popular...
I'd like to hear from more cue makers who are pursuing evolution and their ideas. People will say its stupid, til it's mainstream. Have guts, be a leader!!!
Try violins and guitars, or clarinets and saxophones, or other instruments in which the skill and creativity of the user are the driving force behind the art (kind of like billiard sports). You see what I mean?
You actually think someone will trade a centuries old violin or bass for the latest electronic model? I think not.
I guess it would depend on the condition of the instrument and intended use.
Stradivarius was not the only maker hundreds of years ago. His instruments have legend status but they were made in a workshop setting in a production manner. Well made to be sure. But in practical terms a violinst can play masterfully with modern instruments just as well. There is threshold with tool performance where there is no practical improvement only subjective improvement, i.e. it feels better without being able to really measure why.
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Musical instruments are incomparable as their value is not derived directly from the skill or creativity of the artist, but rather the tones that are produced. Someone could make an insanely fancy inlaid guitar, but if it doesn't sound good, or feel good, when played, no credible musician will want it no matter how beautiful it is. Also, keep in mind that Eric Clapton could make almost any guitar sound great, but the tone of the guitar would still be subjective.
BTW...Violins and other concert string instruments are made today much in the same way they were made 400 years ago, with the only differences being some of the materials used on for hardware and strings.
I believe that the cue itself has reached its purest form. Just like a baseball bat, or golf club, or spoon, or pen, it's basic 'shape' won't change unless something about the game changes. Its a basic design/engineering concept ( as well as an evolutionary concept) known as 'form follows function'.
In other words, a cue only needs to be a straight stick. Its evolution is complete. Everything else is fluff.
In other words, a cue only needs to be a straight stick. Its evolution is complete. Everything else is fluff.
If cues got really hi tech or into the exotic how many cue makers would exist? The market for them would drive most out of business and the only makers would be large companies. There is where the problem exist. The large companies don't see enough profit in the cue market to invest their resources into.
I see your logic...but how about golf clubs...they've evolved. If they mass produce, they have abundant profit...ie, schon=profit.
And you are right, not many mom and pop golf club makers out there anymore due to exactly the reason you stated. Remember, golf clubs used to be made out of WOOD exactly as pool cues are currently still done. Over the years, they've evolved into the titanium, high tech replacements of the old woods.
The reason for making the cue have more deflection than as it comes ,is to tune the cue to the amount of deflection that the customer is used to or desires.
In a masse situation, most prefer a cue that is very heavy in the front end and stiff, the opposite to most LD shafts today.
This would allow a tip change and the same weight playing cue can be used for that masse shot.
The new carbon materials are not like those of the past. New meaning materials that were not around 5 years ago. These materials are very smooth to the feel unless the shaft gets damp from sweaty hands.They only need a wipe down with a clean dry paper towel and it is all dry and smooth again.
There is now more opportunity to tune a cue than ever before to meet the customers needs.
Some lucky people who were at JOB Billiards on Wednesday got to try out one of these new generation cue shafts. Some did not want to take the opportunity to try something new. To each their own.
I see your logic but....how about pool cues...they've evolved....
.....Remember, cues used to be made out of only WOOD. But over the years, they've evolved, and have since been made of various metals, fiberglass, plastic, graphite, and even acrylics and carbon fiber have been tried.
There is a reason that cues arent made of titanium. Because a titanium cue would suck.
Why try to revolutionize the equipment when the players have gotten so good tournaments now have to be played on 10' tables with small pockets?
I'm highly confident it would be possible to develop a superior playing cue, however, who is going to invest the money to do that? It may take anywhere from $100K to $1 million in R&D as well as tooling to "mass produce" the product. Further, don't assume the product would be sold cheaply. When you start looking at materials such as Kevlar and Titanium, the cost goes up substantially. How many $2,000 to $4,000 cues are going to be sold even if they do offer superior playability, particularly if they don't fit the eye of being traditionally attractive?
The fact is, when compared to a sport like golf, the volume in pool simply isn't there. Sure, there's countless golfers who will stand in line to lay down $500 to buy the latest, greatest driver that will supposedly add 10 yards to their drives. What is the advance expected in a pool cue? How many people will lay down $500 in order to get 1/2 tip less deflection? Regardless of the material used, there is a point of diminishing returns for a LD shaft since it is primarily dictated by mass. Point is, you already have a number of high quality, LD shafts available that sell for $250 and less.
I'm guessing if someone were to come up with something too crazy, the controlling organization may take steps to prevent it with rules to protect the sanctity of the game. As someone already mentioned, the rubber tips aren't legal for most competition.
I'm highly confident it would be possible to develop a superior playing cue, however, who is going to invest the money to do that? It may take anywhere from $100K to $1 million in R&D as well as tooling to "mass produce" the product. Further, don't assume the product would be sold cheaply. When you start looking at materials such as Kevlar and Titanium, the cost goes up substantially. How many $2,000 to $4,000 cues are going to be sold even if they do offer superior playability, particularly if they don't fit the eye of being traditionally attractive?
The fact is, when compared to a sport like golf, the volume in pool simply isn't there. Sure, there's countless golfers who will stand in line to lay down $500 to buy the latest, greatest driver that will supposedly add 10 yards to their drives. What is the advance expected in a pool cue? How many people will lay down $500 in order to get 1/2 tip less deflection? Regardless of the material used, there is a point of diminishing returns for a LD shaft since it is primarily dictated by mass. Point is, you already have a number of high quality, LD shafts available that sell for $250 and less.
I'm guessing if someone were to come up with something too crazy, the controlling organization may take steps to prevent it with rules to protect the sanctity of the game. As someone already mentioned, the rubber tips aren't legal for most competition.