TheThaiger
Banned
Aside from Lee Brett, who?
What's Good About A Good Stroke?
- Thread starter Patrick Johnson
- Start date
Aside from Lee Brett, who?
Mr. Lee,
As you so often say, you do not understand.
As you usually do so often, if not always, you twist words, mis-interpret others' statements, & mis-state in an attempt to belittle them & make yourself appear more correct & more 'knowledgable', which is so often simply NOT the case.
You also have so little insight & have simply missed the point.
I was not at all implying that every Amatuer is of Novice ability. Bobby Jones was an Amateur Golfer & the last Golfer, Amateur or PROFESSIONAL to win the Grand Slam, old or new version. Obviously he was not of Novice ability.
CJ's use of the term Amatuer seemed to imply a proficiency difference between Amatuer & Professional. I was merely pointing out that the word Novice would be more appropriate. The opposite of which you now imply regarding 'my words'.
The words Novice & Amateur are two(2) diffferent words with different meanings. Everyone that loves the game & plays for their love of the game is an Amateur, regardless of their skill level, even Pros like CJ & others are 'Amateurs' by strict definition even if they accept money in compensation. A 'Pro' that takes money in compensation can still be of 'Novice' ability in comparison to the extremely high level of play of some Champions.
I'm sorry if my words are TOO BIG for you. Perhaps that is because you are such a 'little man' & I am not referring to your height. It is not me, that 'pontificates', but you, as you 'think' yourself to be Billiard Napoleanic Royalty. Perhaps you should just stick to polishing off your 'Royal Crown'.
I am merely expressing my opinions based on my 46 yrs. of playing experience at a fairly talented level in conjunction with my physics education in both high school & college. I 'thought' that was the purpose of a 'discussion' forum. I did not think it was merely a place for SOME instructors to 'trawl' for potential customers.
I do not have a piece of paper(cetificate) that is basically the result of paying a fee to take a course & get 'certified' that 'makes' me a 'profesional'
I am an 'Amateur' as I Love the Game but I am hardly a 'Novice'. I've played at level 9 when leagues had 9's & I have played at 7 when that was the highest level. I have multiple trophies for most runouts in a session & I have barely lost multiple MVP awards to Mark Carnaval, a 'Pro' that played in the leagues with me. He barely qualified for the MVP while I played EVERY week & was subject to much more competition.
As to whether you are a Pro, Amatuer, or Novice, I am not sure. But I have seen you play on You Tube & by that evaluation, your playing level is 'Novice' at best, regardless of the number of trick shots you can perform. Most of us know that the success of most of them are in the set-up & the employment of a little know how.
Sorry for the cruel realities of this post, but YOU are the one that has instigated them with your personal attacks (a poor strategy on your part). I simply have gotten tired of being the 'BIGGER MAN'.
I'm sure there will be a money challenge forth coming, but as all of the one's that I've seen you offer are one sided to your benefit & the fact that you have declined every fair one that I have seen that has been proposed to you, I decline in advance. I would not even want to associate with you even in a 'competition' where I would probably be able to KYA.
I know there are those that like you & think highly of you & will probably come to your defense in the public forum & in PM as they have done before. In person, you may be a nice man, I do not know. But on AZB, with your writing style, that is not how you come across, at least not to me.
The animosity between you & I could have all been avoided, if you were a more compassionate man willling to be more gracious & less arrogant. But your are not. You may be a 'One Eye Jack' to most on AZB, but I've seen the other side of your face.
I think it best for everyone else if we avoid these confrontations in the future. So... I am now placing you too on my ignore list so I will no longer be influenced by your obsessive stalkings.
Maybe you should do the same to me.
Best Wishes & Good Luck to you in all of your endeavors,
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Sorry but I have to say the violin thing is nonsense. The bow is in constant contact with string, using all kinds of subtle motions and forces to control vibratos, volume, speed etc The cue tip is only in contact for milliseconds and there are only a few forces that the cue ball responds to such as where it's hit and how hard.
"different strokes for different folks"
That's correct, hammering a nail and stroking a billiard cue are different. Using your wrist to generate kinetic energy into the billiard tip and the wrist motion to generate kinetic enery into the hammer's head are the same for me. I learned how to do this because I have experience in playing other sports and games at a reasonably high level.
This technique is also used in martial arts sword movements. When you watch a high level martial artist you can see the energy and power they are able to generate from just a "flick of the wrist", just like the hammer and the pool cue.
If you don't understand this concept then please forget it and keep stroking like you stoke. "different strokes for different folks". This technique is simply not for you, and you will still play well and enjoy the game.
And to do this technique, just like the hammer analogy, you must pre cock your wrist to store up this potential energy like pulling the string of a bow to create coil. Without coil your wrist is just "along for the ride" and will not supply any extra energy or extra speed in the billiard stroke. So when you say your wrist supplies no extra speed or power, you are exactly right.
That's correct, hammering a nail and stroking a billiard cue are different. Using your wrist to generate kinetic energy into the billiard tip and the wrist motion to generate kinetic enery into the hammer's head are the same for me. I learned how to do this because I have experience in playing other sports and games at a reasonably high level.
This technique is also used in martial arts sword movements. When you watch a high level martial artist you can see the energy and power they are able to generate from just a "flick of the wrist", just like the hammer and the pool cue.
If you don't understand this concept then please forget it and keep stroking like you stoke. "different strokes for different folks". This technique is simply not for you, and you will still play well and enjoy the game.
And to do this technique, just like the hammer analogy, you must pre cock your wrist to store up this potential energy like pulling the string of a bow to create coil. Without coil your wrist is just "along for the ride" and will not supply any extra energy or extra speed in the billiard stroke. So when you say your wrist supplies no extra speed or power, you are exactly right.
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I agree. What's with these ridiculous analogies? Delivering a cue is essentially a controlled underhanded spear toss. It is not anything to do with overhand throws, tosses, hammer strikes, or what-have-you. (The muscles used and the "direction of power" in the wrist -- if the wrist is even used [a variable for players of even the same ability] -- are in the opposite direction than of delivering the cue in a normal pool stroke.)
IMHO, folks are grasping at straws with these crazy analogies.
-Sean
I'm sorry you feel that way.
CJ:
I think the problem is that people are getting so caught up in "proving" his/her very focused points with these crazy analogies, that have nothing to do with the overall action of delivering a cue to the cue ball. I know the points you're trying to get across with your particular analogies -- they are very "point purpose" analogies for specific points -- but I think we all are losing track of the pool stroke itself.
-Sean
Slasher,
I thought the wrist motion was the main topic at that time. It certainly seems to be a 'similiar analogy'. Athough the 'stroke' of the violin bow can be long & slow or quick & fast & repetitive as in practice pool strokes, would not the basic motion of the wrist be similiar?
Obviously one is not trying to hit something with a violin bow(other than maybe that high note) but resting on the strings seems similiar to resting on the bridge for the cue. Obvioisly the arm is at a different angle as I suggested might be argued by some, but it seems to be in the pronated position.
Just my thoughts & questions.
Regards,
I think the violin bow analogy illustrates some important ways a pool stroke isn't like swinging a club or a hammer. It's held similarly to a cue (not extended like a club) and moved with a similar "underhanded" wrist motion, despite not being vertical.
Not perfect, but not ridiculous.
pj
chgo
It's simply an option to explore or "food for thought".
Yes, the wrist has a range of motions, but you want to narrow that down to one motion with the pool stoke. This is an up and down motion like you were hammering a nail. Of course this motion with the pool stroke is so small it's not detectable with the naked eye, but it's still there IF the wrist is pre set to do it. Just like in the hammer you can't drive a nail unless you first cock the hammer with your wrist to store the potential energy.
You can play really good pool with no wrist, this is just an option that many may not know exists. Don't confuse the message with the messanger, I have no vested interest in how anyone processes this information. It's simply an option to explore or "food for thought".
Yes, the wrist has a range of motions, but you want to narrow that down to one motion with the pool stoke. This is an up and down motion like you were hammering a nail. Of course this motion with the pool stroke is so small it's not detectable with the naked eye, but it's still there IF the wrist is pre set to do it. Just like in the hammer you can't drive a nail unless you first cock the hammer with your wrist to store the potential energy.
You can play really good pool with no wrist, this is just an option that many may not know exists. Don't confuse the message with the messanger, I have no vested interest in how anyone processes this information. It's simply an option to explore or "food for thought".
Far from "not perfect," Pat. One holds the bow in his/her finger tips (and I mean the "tippy tips" -- the pads at the tips of the fingers); not in a normal grip where the fingers extend around the entire implement.
But wait... what am I doing?!? I myself am getting caught up in these analogies. Exit stage left...
-Sean
problem solving, decision making, perception, memory, creativity, etc
Are you wondering if the word analogy* is understood correctly?
*Analogy plays a significant role in problem solving, decision making, perception, memory, creativity, emotion, explanation and communication. It lies behind basic tasks such as the identification of places, objects and people, for example, in face perception and facial recognition systems. It has been argued that analogy is "the core of cognition".[3] Specific analogical language comprises exemplification, comparisons, metaphors, similes, allegories, and parables, but not metonymy. Phrases like and so on, and the like, as if, and the very word like also rely on an analogical understanding by the receiver of a message including them. Analogy is important not only in ordinary language and common sense (where proverbs and idioms give many examples of its application) but also in science, philosophy and the humanities. The concepts of association, comparison, correspondence, mathematical and morphological homology, homomorphism, iconicity, isomorphism, metaphor, resemblance, and similarity are closely related to analogy. In cognitive linguistics, the notion of conceptual metaphor may be equivalent to that of analogy.
Analogy has been studied and discussed since classical antiquity by philosophers, scientists and lawyers. The last few decades have shown a renewed interest in analogy, most notably in cognitive science.
Are you wondering if the word analogy* is understood correctly?
*Analogy plays a significant role in problem solving, decision making, perception, memory, creativity, emotion, explanation and communication. It lies behind basic tasks such as the identification of places, objects and people, for example, in face perception and facial recognition systems. It has been argued that analogy is "the core of cognition".[3] Specific analogical language comprises exemplification, comparisons, metaphors, similes, allegories, and parables, but not metonymy. Phrases like and so on, and the like, as if, and the very word like also rely on an analogical understanding by the receiver of a message including them. Analogy is important not only in ordinary language and common sense (where proverbs and idioms give many examples of its application) but also in science, philosophy and the humanities. The concepts of association, comparison, correspondence, mathematical and morphological homology, homomorphism, iconicity, isomorphism, metaphor, resemblance, and similarity are closely related to analogy. In cognitive linguistics, the notion of conceptual metaphor may be equivalent to that of analogy.
Analogy has been studied and discussed since classical antiquity by philosophers, scientists and lawyers. The last few decades have shown a renewed interest in analogy, most notably in cognitive science.
I really don't use the spear throwing in reference to the pool stroke
The spear picture was a joke responding to the guy saying he sometimes feels like using his pool cue as a a golf club.
I really don't use the spear throwing in reference to the pool stroke, but it does show (if you've thrown a spear) the extra distance you get from a well timed flick of the wrist.
The spear picture was a joke responding to the guy saying he sometimes feels like using his pool cue as a a golf club.
I really don't use the spear throwing in reference to the pool stroke, but it does show (if you've thrown a spear) the extra distance you get from a well timed flick of the wrist.
CJ,
We agree, even though we employ strokes with basic differences. I never thought of employing a tennis type grip even though I played well enough to be offered a position to teach @ a major tennis facility in the New Orleans area. I however do not have your exposure to martial arts & thus not the handling of 'hand weapons'.
It certainly is different strokes for different folks, but I would hope that everyone is always looking to improve & therefore 'food for thought' can be fruitful.
I also thought that that would be one of the main purposes of a 'discussion' forum.
Best Regards,
See here's where I think you have it wrong in thinking the wrist adds energy. It flexes, relaxed muscles (that are in the forearm) allowing more speed but also allowing the geometry to keep the cue/spear/beer glass on it's intended path. Oh and throwing an object has a release timing factor.
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Thanks all, for the thoughtful comments. Here's another one from me...an analogy/comparison is nothing more than a relationship and will not be broken down as an exact match to the original item/movement/idea. CJ is trying to create an asssociation in the stroke with familiar movements we may all know. It stops there. If you've never done the movement or done it very much, then perhaps another comparison may strike a chord and give you that aha moment.
If you go to other forums, baseball, golf, etc., they are more involved in the kinesiology of their sport than pool forums. Their emphasis is on muscle groups, etc. and their effects on accomplishing an accurate swing or stroke. They don't discuss the physics of their equipment as much and are further advanced in cataloging an accurate movement than we are.
Using analogies, whether they are completely accurate or not, still move us into the correct area of discussion. And that is the kinesiology or biomechanics of a good stroke. But if we've got to argue about every flippin' post and opinion, PJ's excellent thread will get locked.
PJ, thanks for the thread. I would also like to get back on topic.
Best,
Mike
If you go to other forums, baseball, golf, etc., they are more involved in the kinesiology of their sport than pool forums. Their emphasis is on muscle groups, etc. and their effects on accomplishing an accurate swing or stroke. They don't discuss the physics of their equipment as much and are further advanced in cataloging an accurate movement than we are.
Using analogies, whether they are completely accurate or not, still move us into the correct area of discussion. And that is the kinesiology or biomechanics of a good stroke. But if we've got to argue about every flippin' post and opinion, PJ's excellent thread will get locked.
PJ, thanks for the thread. I would also like to get back on topic.
Best,
Mike
I must say, I am flattered by the company I am keeping by being on your ignore list. Thank you!
I love your comments about using "words too big" when you seem to struggle to spell many basic words. Wow. BTW, I'm not trying to be the Cyber Spelling Police with that comment, I just find it strange you make a reference to how articulate you are when you write and spell like a 4th grader. Perhaps what you should have said is people may have difficulty understanding what you're trying to communicate as it often doesn't make sense and/or the words you use are often not utilized in the correct context.
Your insulting comments towards Scott are quite revealing about you dude. I seriously doubt anyone who has actually met Scott, and spent any time with him, would agree with you in the least. There are numerous adjectives that come to mind I could utilize to describe my opinion of you, however, I won't stoop to your level. I guess it won't matter anyway, since I'm on your ignore list, you won't be reading this post anyway. LOL
I guess I could have simply told him he was wrong
I'm ok with you thinking I'm wrong, it wouldn't be the first time (and may not be the last). If you can drive 10 nails and not feel this energy in your wrist then you're certainly right. Potential, kinetic energy is not an option.
I always admired Rafael Martinez's pool stroke and so has many other players. He plays at a level that's just as good as Efren, Bustemante, Archer, etc. and if you don't believe me just ask them. I have gambled with all of them and Rafael could do things with the cue ball that were simply amazing.
I ask Rafael how he could generate such power and he explained to me how his father taught him the pool stroke using a hammer. I tried it, incorporated it and used it to create positive outcomes. I guess I could have simply told him he was wrong, but it never occured to me.
I'm ok with you thinking I'm wrong, it wouldn't be the first time (and may not be the last). If you can drive 10 nails and not feel this energy in your wrist then you're certainly right. Potential, kinetic energy is not an option.
I always admired Rafael Martinez's pool stroke and so has many other players. He plays at a level that's just as good as Efren, Bustemante, Archer, etc. and if you don't believe me just ask them. I have gambled with all of them and Rafael could do things with the cue ball that were simply amazing.
I ask Rafael how he could generate such power and he explained to me how his father taught him the pool stroke using a hammer. I tried it, incorporated it and used it to create positive outcomes. I guess I could have simply told him he was wrong, but it never occured to me.
Agreed. When I was coaching children sometimes you have to say the same thing 5, 10, 15, 20...times in a slighly different way before that light bulb clicks on & he or she says, 'Oh, I get it'. Then sometimes a potential All Star is 'born'.
What was the topic again?:wink:
Archery, hammering nails, tennis, golf, racquetball, baseball, violin playing, spear chucking,.....all this MENTAL masturbation about how to use the wrist in a pool stroke, and no one thinks of the one thing that is more appropriate than any of those things. (maybe some of you guys only use your fingertips of your thumb and forefinger??)